21 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

We know that it is difficult for wardens to have children with non-wardens and nearly impossible for two wardens to have a child together due to the taint in their blood.

How would Grey Wardens handle the children of active wardens, if a child were born to them?

For instance, would the wardens keep a close eye on the children to see if the taint manifests within them?

Would they conscript the child from a young age and tutor them until they're old enough to take the Joining?

Would they allow the child's parents to raise them or keep them separate from at least the warden parent to keep said-parent from being distracted from their duties? 

Would the child of a Grey Warden who became a Grey Warden have any edge or disadvantage against darkspawn since the taint may already be inherent in their blood?

Would they be targets for darkspawn to capture and corrupt since intelligent darkspawn can also sense Grey Wardens and organize other darkspawn (Nothing as large as a horde during a blight, but say...a sizable war party?)

Also, from the wording on the subject it appears that their have been children born from wardens even if on rare occassion.  A few examples being Fiona's child in DA: The Calling and Sophia Dryden's son: "Toben Dryden, Sophia's brother and guardian of her young son, had no choice but to flee Ferelden." -Codex entry: History of the Drydens.

Exactly how does the taint lessen a warden's ability to have children?  Does it corrode/corrupt the reproductive system by affecting the warden's DNA? If so, how come the taint doesn't pass onto a non-warden and make them sick with the taint in the same way that someone who sleeps with another person infected with AIDs gets AIDs themselves?

And what is the math involved in making a warden near-sterile?

From what I've gathered about reproductive genetics, the average person of child-bearing age has an 80-90% of seeding/conceiving; we'll say...85% just for simplicity's sake.

For child-bearing to become difficult, the chance for a viable pregnancy would have to drop below 50% between both partners.  So theoretically, if the Joining were to drop a Warden's fertility down to 10%, then the average viability between them and a non-warden would be 47.5%...therefore, chances would be hard enough to be considered difficult.

Between two wardens...that's 10%...so yes, next to impossible.

And all of that would be done before accounting for age, body health, interracial relations (between elf-human; human-dwarf; elf-dwarf; kossith-elf/human/dwarf), or any other factors that wouldn't know about.

Considering that the world of Dragon Age has a few different rules in regards to biology and genetics, my shot in the dark should be taken as speculation.

[Anvos]

Really we don't have enough information to tell. All we've really seen on this subject is that a male warden can have a child with Morigan with or without the Dark Ritual (Alister or Loghain can also have one with the DR) and either way the child isn't considered a darkspawn, nor have we heard about them only living to their 30s so it is unlikely they are born wardens either.

Seems likely that with regular and warden that its likely their born fairly normal though probably have increased resistance to the taint due to being exposed to it at such early time in developement.

Warden and Warden I'm not even gonna try to figure out, as beyond not being darkspawn nor born wardens its hard to tell if their possibly not a new subrace of their parent's race.

Modifié par Anvos, 24 août 2012 - 09:04 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

The whole "Wardens have a tough time reproducing" was thought up by the writers just so that the Wardens would have to recruit instead of raise their kids to be Wardens. Makes the story more interesting.

[Renmiri1]

Wardens leave their families behind, no ? Kinda hard to make it to birthday parties if you are on the Deep Roads

[Anvos]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Wardens leave their families behind, no ? Kinda hard to make it to birthday parties if you are on the Deep Roads

Eh techniqually your past isn't supposed to matter but as you can see for DAO that is likely more a myth than a true outcome for most wardens as wardens aren't like witchers where your supposed to grow cold to emotion and are generally shunned by society.  Sure you may miss a few but just think of the awesome presents you can get from a dwarf ruin.

Modifié par Anvos, 25 août 2012 - 02:04 .

[TEWR]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Wardens leave their families behind, no ? Kinda hard to make it to birthday parties if you are on the Deep Roads

Not really. We see how Oghren can be a part of his child's life with Felsi after becoming a Warden, Kristoff seemed to be a part of his wife's life well enough before he was killed, and Keenan was married as well -- though the latter's marriage was a trainwreck for different, albeit related, reasons.

Generally I believe the Wardens don't like their members to get married after they become a Warden, but they're not against it either. At least, that's what I feel to be the case. And if you were married before becoming a Warden, then you can still interact with them.

The whole "abandon your former life" is more of a guideline then an actual rule. If it's followed, it's usually followed by people whose former life wasn't anything special to begin with.

For instance, would the wardens keep a close eye on the children to see if the taint manifests within them?

It doesn't. Gaider said it doesn't long ago on the DA forums.

Also, from the wording on the subject it appears that their have been children born from wardens even if on rare occassion.  A few examples being Fiona's child in DA: The Calling and Sophia Dryden's son: "Toben Dryden, Sophia's brother and guardian of her young son, had no choice but to flee Ferelden." -Codex entry: History of the Drydens.

While Fiona did indeed have a child -- widely believed to be Alistair, though that's merely speculation -- you shouldn't believe that Sophia Dryden had a child after becoming a Warden. It's more likely that she had a child before she became a Warden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Saberchic]

I've always believed, based off what we know, that the only wardens who can truly have a chance at conceiving a child are ones that have recently joined the order and, therefore, have not had their bodies tainted as long. The taint is shown to corrupt over time, so I inferred that the reproductive organs of wardens become ...ruined (that might not be the exact word I'm looking for).

We know from Hespith's tale that women are captured and brought down to darkspawn to be fed the corrupted flesh, thereby introducing the taint, and then raped. These women become broodmothers. Their offspring become darkspawn, but that's because they actually changed.

Even if 2 wardens were to hook up, they'd have to be relatively new to the order to even have a chance of producing a child. Thus, I don't think the child would be tainted because it would not have been long enough for any real damage to be done, so the child would be normal.

That's my theory anyway, based off what I've read.

[Renmiri1]

If taint ruins fertility how do broodmothers breed ?

[Saberchic]

Renmiri1 wrote...

If taint ruins fertility how do broodmothers breed ?

My guess is that the taint renders others except darkspawn infertile. Once the females start the transformation, she is no longer a human/dwarf/elf/whatever. Darkspawn can begit darkspawn because the taint is a part of them. *shrugs*

That's my inference based on what's been noted.

[janat91]

Just thought I'd chime in and correct your math

For child-bearing to become difficult, the chance for a viable pregnancy
would have to drop below 50% between both partners.

Ok, let's use less than 50% chance for pregnancynas a definition for "difficult child-bearing"

So theoretically,
if the Joining were to drop a Warden's fertility down to 10%, then the
average viability between them and a non-warden would be
47.5%...therefore, chances would be hard enough to be considered
difficult.

Now this is where your math fails. If the warden's fertility is 10% and his/her partner's fertility is 85%, the couple's chance for pregnancy is 8,5%. To get the less than 50% fertility for the couple, the warden's fertility X has to be
0,85 / 0,50 < 1 / X <=> X < ~0,58, rounded downwards. So the warden's fertility rate of 58% makes it hard for him/her and his/her partner to get a child. Now, two warden's chances could be as high as about 34%.

Modifié par janat91, 28 août 2012 - 06:36 .

[ShadowLordXII]

janat91 wrote...

Just thought I'd chime in and correct your math

For child-bearing to become difficult, the chance for a viable pregnancy
would have to drop below 50% between both partners.

Ok, let's use less than 50% chance for pregnancynas a definition for "difficult child-bearing"

So theoretically,
if the Joining were to drop a Warden's fertility down to 10%, then the
average viability between them and a non-warden would be
47.5%...therefore, chances would be hard enough to be considered
difficult.

Now this is where your math fails. If the warden's fertility is 10% and his/her partner's fertility is 85%, the couple's chance for pregnancy is 8,5%. To get the less than 50% fertility for the couple, the warden's fertility X has to be
0,85 / 0,50 < 1 / X <=> X < ~0,58, rounded downwards. So the warden's fertility rate of 58% makes it hard for him/her and his/her partner to get a child. Now, two warden's chances could be as high as about 34%.

Wait, where did you get 8.5%?

Unless I was using the wrong formula, I just took 50 + 85 and divided the result by two.

[janat91]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

janat91 wrote...

Just thought I'd chime in and correct your math

For child-bearing to become difficult, the chance for a viable pregnancy
would have to drop below 50% between both partners.

Ok, let's use less than 50% chance for pregnancynas a definition for "difficult child-bearing"

So theoretically,
if the Joining were to drop a Warden's fertility down to 10%, then the
average viability between them and a non-warden would be
47.5%...therefore, chances would be hard enough to be considered
difficult.

Now this is where your math fails. If the warden's fertility is 10% and his/her partner's fertility is 85%, the couple's chance for pregnancy is 8,5%. To get the less than 50% fertility for the couple, the warden's fertility X has to be
0,85 / 0,50 < 1 / X <=> X < ~0,58, rounded downwards. So the warden's fertility rate of 58% makes it hard for him/her and his/her partner to get a child. Now, two warden's chances could be as high as about 34%.

Wait, where did you get 8.5%?

Unless I was using the wrong formula, I just took 50 + 85 and divided the result by two.

While I'm not an expert on genetics, I would say you were using the wrong formula. What you were calculating is the avarage fertility, which is not the same thing as the chance for pregnancy.

When calculating the chance for pregnancy, you should multiply the fertility rates, like 10% * 85% = 8,5 %. That's because you need both partners to be fertile, otherwise neither of them can have children with each other.

Let's have a look at an example, where you can see quite well that adding the fertility rates together and dividing by two simply doesn't work for calculating the chance for pregnancy:

A man's fertility is normal (80%) and a woman is not fertile at all (0%). How probable is it for them to have a child together?

A) Your way: (80% + 0%) / 2 = 40%
My way: 80% * 0% = 0%

Modifié par janat91, 29 août 2012 - 04:17 .

[ShadowLordXII]

okay, thanks for the correction.

[RedWulfi]

I always wanted my warden and Alistair to have a kid... That would be soooo cooooool in DA3 XD

[ShadowLordXII]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Wardens leave their families behind, no ? Kinda hard to make it to birthday parties if you are on the Deep Roads

Not really. We see how Oghren can be a part of his child's life with Felsi after becoming a Warden, Kristoff seemed to be a part of his wife's life well enough before he was killed, and Keenan was married as well -- though the latter's marriage was a trainwreck for different, albeit related, reasons.

Generally I believe the Wardens don't like their members to get married after they become a Warden, but they're not against it either. At least, that's what I feel to be the case. And if you were married before becoming a Warden, then you can still interact with them.

The whole "abandon your former life" is more of a guideline then an actual rule. If it's followed, it's usually followed by people whose former life wasn't anything special to begin with.

For instance, would the wardens keep a close eye on the children to see if the taint manifests within them?

It doesn't. Gaider said it doesn't long ago on the DA forums.

Also, from the wording on the subject it appears that their have been children born from wardens even if on rare occassion.  A few examples being Fiona's child in DA: The Calling and Sophia Dryden's son: "Toben Dryden, Sophia's brother and guardian of her young son, had no choice but to flee Ferelden." -Codex entry: History of the Drydens.

While Fiona did indeed have a child -- widely believed to be Alistair, though that's merely speculation -- you shouldn't believe that Sophia Dryden had a child after becoming a Warden. It's more likely that she had a child before she became a Warden.

It is possible that Sophia had the child while she was a warden due to the wording of before mentioned codex.  Young can mean anywhere from adolscence to little child and within cultural context, it seems to lean towards little child since adulthood is entered at an earlier age than modern cultures.

About Gaider saying that warden-children don't manifest the taint, would anyone mind giving me a link to that topic because it doesn't make too much sense.

Of course, chances of it manifesting when only one of the parents are wardens would be slim.  But with two parents?  That's like saying that a child born from two parents with AIDs is not at all at risk of being born with AIDs themselves.

Then again, maybe it's something about the magical aspect of the taint and that it only sticks to the person who went through the Joining.

[kuoleman]

David Gaider on fertility of warden's and children's taint.

[kuoleman]

"A Grey Warden can have a child... just not with another Grey Warden. So in the case of Alistair being married to a female PC the only possible result is no heir (unless Alistair has a child with someone other than his wife, I suppose). Grey Wardens have a limited chance of conception with a non-Grey Warden, but it does happen... and the child is not tainted in any fashion."
David Gaider
see link above

[Karlone123]

kuoleman wrote...

"A Grey Warden can have a child... just not with another Grey Warden. So in the case of Alistair being married to a female PC the only possible result is no heir (unless Alistair has a child with someone other than his wife, I suppose). Grey Wardens have a limited chance of conception with a non-Grey Warden, but it does happen... and the child is not tainted in any fashion."
David Gaider
see link above

Plus Alistair is the child of an Elven Grey Warden (if you believe it) and he bares no biological issues before he went for his joining.

[Anvos]

kuoleman wrote...

"A Grey Warden can have a child... just not with another Grey Warden. So in the case of Alistair being married to a female PC the only possible result is no heir (unless Alistair has a child with someone other than his wife, I suppose). Grey Wardens have a limited chance of conception with a non-Grey Warden, but it does happen... and the child is not tainted in any fashion."
David Gaider
see link above

Actually the post below it implies that it is still possible, just it requires a bit of magical aid.

[Saberchic]

David Gaider wrote...

Demeira wrote...
Well,
there goes my fairy tale!  I was hoping for a loophole somewhere that
would make my fanfiction plausible.  I had this all planned out that
Alistair and Orlaine (my PC) would have twins because of some ancient
Tevinter fertility charms given to them by some sorceress out of Orlais
and somehow the act of having these children born of two Wardens would
somehow give Alistair and Orlaine an additional 20 years and would
somehow dilute the taint.  And these twins would start bloodlines that
would play into the next two Blights.  Looks like that idea is
scrapped...

Well... just because it's never happened
doesn't mean it never could, I suppose. There are always exceptions. So
if you involve some mysterious Tevinter fertility charm... why not?
Really I'm just talking about the fact that Grey Wardens never produce
offspring together naturally. Unnaturally is an entirely different
story.

*cue maniacal laughter*

So my Cousland and Alistair could have a child. *rubs hands together in glee* But I wouldn't count on it, especially not after doing the DR with Morrigan. 

So it sounds like the taint really does a number on the reproductive organs of the wardens... or at least makes them practically sterile???

[Vox Draco]

AndersIsLush wrote...

I always wanted my warden and Alistair to have a kid... That would be soooo cooooool in DA3 XD

So glad that after Witch hunt my FemWarden reappeared at the court, with almost no memory of what happened, only to be blessed with the first child after some months...Morrigan's final gift to her friend, the cure of the taint brought upon my Warden against her will, forced upon her by that foul murderer and blackmailer Duncan

My personal headcanon, and the reason why I do not really want the warden to have a role in any other DA-Game. It will most likely contradict my personal canon, and after the horrors of Mass Effect I do really want to keep my Warden's ending as happy as I ever wanted it...

[Renmiri1]

Wow people were so rude to David Gaider on that old thread! I'm surprised no one got banned!

Love his answers though.. Makes my fanfic about a baby Hawke work like a charm!