14 réponses à ce sujet

[ethanarc]

O.k, the question is simple

Seeing as the "QUN" as a way of life, started with the Kossith & even seeing as Tal-Vashoth Kossith act the way Kossith still in the Qun, only difference is they have rejected their role within the Qun;

My question is: Is that rigid mentality Kossith have part of their physiology & what led to the creation of the Qun or is it the other way round & they become that way while living under the Qun?

Like if a Kossith baby was raised by humans away from Par-Vollen would it still tend to act the way they do or more like those it was raised with?

[Reznore57]

The Qun was created by a prophet as a reaction to a society where rich people lived in luxury thinking every was fine while poor were dying in the street etc....
That kind of thing.
I thing his name was koslun ( not sure ) ...anyway for him the society was sick and he created the qun.

I don't know if the first qunari were kossith , probably....

But no , i don't think kossith are born with a "qunari" mentality , that just the way their whole society works , it's their normality.

So a kossith living with human would probably act like a giant human.

Modifié par Reznore57, 24 août 2012 - 08:57 .

[ethanarc]

Huh interesting

I mean I knew of Koslun starting the Qun
& I know the STEN from Origins says that when the Kossith celebrate things can get...crazy, but still can't imagine them ever having a society of opulence comparable to one that sparked the french revolution...

Thanx for the info dude, really hope they explore that at least a little in DA3

[MichaelStuart]

Hard to say.
Until I speak with a kossith that has had no contact with the qun, we won't know for sure.
Personally, I believe they act that way because that's how they were raised.

[ethanarc]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Hard to say.
Until I speak with a kossith that has had no contact with the qun, we won't know for sure.
Personally, I believe they act that way because that's how they were raised.

As in being raised in the Qun the way it is now, right I get it.

But the thing is though, the Qun the way it is now doesn't seem like a way of life that any species that had the freedom of mind we assume they did would willingly submit to.

Yet apparently, when it 1st began, enough of the species agreed to it which brings back my question of how much were the Kossith like the other species psychologically to be gn with, you know?

[The Elder King]

Not every Kossith acts in a "qunari" way. The Tal-Vashot in Awakening didn't act in the same way as the Tal-Vashot you can talk to in DA2. Probably because he was outside the qun for mor time.
Anyway, it's natural that they might act similar to the qunari. They were raised and lived their entire life, since they were kids, following the Qun's way. They need time to change their attitude. But it's not in their nature to act that way.
If a human family find a kossith baby and raise him, he'll not act as the qunari and Tal-Vashot, but according to the teachings of his parents and by the customs of the human society.

[ethanarc]

hhh89 wrote...

Not every Kossith acts in a "qunari" way. The Tal-Vashot in Awakening didn't act in the same way as the Tal-Vashot you can talk to in DA2. Probably because he was outside the qun for mor time.
Anyway, it's natural that they might act similar to the qunari. They were raised and lived their entire life, since they were kids, following the Qun's way. They need time to change their attitude. But it's not in their nature to act that way.
If a human family find a kossith baby and raise him, he'll not act as the qunari and Tal-Vashot, but according to the teachings of his parents and by the customs of the human society.

Yeah, this seems to be the general consensus.
& yeah, Armass from Awakenng was a bit more relaxed than The Sten was, but when talking he still seemed to have that same logic; like you said though, that's probably from being raised in the Qun

[ethanarc]

Sorry guys it's just, I keep thinking about it & it's just so weird though:

They have no names, they are called what they do. Kossith of now who have been born & raised in the Qun it may be understandable but those who were there when the Qun 1st began, to give up such individuality...

[PsychoBlonde]

I doubt the Qunari are fundamentally different from any of the other sapient Thedas races, although since they've been breeding for specific traits for who knows how long it's possible that, say, the warriors generally overproduce testosterone (leading to their enormous size and extravagant musculature), so they may have certain common psychological issues like excessive aggression and rage. The different subsets of their population may feel like entirely different subcultures as a result of this.

Born and bred Qunari probably aren't even conscious of "giving up" individuality--they never develop it in the first place except on a purely trivial level. Most of the ones you encounter can barely function in connection with non-Qunari society, and the mere *thought* of being forced to do so terrified Sten so much that he went crazy. The Arishok didn't do much better, spending the better part of a decade looking fruitlessly for a book and then finally jettisoning his good sense at the end.

The few others you run into seem to cling helplessly to some group that can give them some sort of purpose or aim, unable to generate anything other than the most base and immediate goals for themselves. Armaas is the only ex-Qunari you encounter who seems largely independent. Maraas gets so far as to refuse certain modes of living (he won't be a bandit and he won't work for Hawke or anyone else important/wealthy), but he doesn't seem to actively pursue anything in particular, either.

[nightscrawl]

--- contains a SPOILER for Act 2 and Isabela ---





The OP is trying to focus on the beginning of Qunari society.

Expanding on what Reznore wrote above...
The Codex entry for The Qun explains these origins...

Long ago, the Ashkaari [Koslun] lived in a great city by the sea. Wealth and prosperity shone upon the city like sunlight, and still its people grumbled in discontent. The Ashkaari walked the streets of his home and saw that all around him were the signs of genius: triumphs of architecture, artistic masterpieces, the palaces of wealthy merchants, libraries, and concert halls. But he also saw signs of misery: the poor, sick, lost, frightened, and the helpless. And the Ashkaari asked himself, "How can one people be both wise and ignorant, great and ruined, triumphant and despairing?"

So the Ashkaari left the land of his birth, seeking out other cities and nations, looking for a people who had found wisdom enough to end hopelessness and despair. He wandered for many years through empires filled with palaces and gardens, but in every nation of the wise, the great, the mighty, he found the forgotten, the abandoned, and the poor. Finally, he came to a vast desert, a wasteland of bare rock clawing at the empty sky, where he took shelter in the shadow of a towering rock, and resolved to meditate until he found his answer or perished.

Many days passed until one night, as he gazed out from the shadow of the rocks, he saw the lifeless desert awaken. A hundred thousand locusts hatched from the barren ground, and as one, they turned south, a single wave of moving earth. The Ashkaari rose and followed in their wake: a path of devastation miles wide, the once verdant land turned to waste. And the Ashkaari's eyes were opened.

Existence is a choice.
There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.

And the Ashkaari went forth to his people.

—An excerpt from The Qun, Canto 1

Reading that, I think it can probably be compared to the communist revolutions that happened around the world decades ago, and here is why.

You might wonder about the wealthy people at the time of Koslun (his own class). I can imagine them scoffing at him, content to keep the status quo where they prosper and lead fat lives. However, societies that are based on class structure have a small wealthy ruling class, a middle class (sometimes), and a very large lower class. Naturally, the lower class people would be eager to try another way, and so there is a revolution. The lower class people throw down the rulers and remake their society according to Koslun's vision for it. I'm sure that most of them welcomed such structure, just as most of the working class people welcomed, and were inspired by, the ideas of Karl Marx.

The main difference between The Qun and our own historic communist revolutions is that Qunari society actually works. Koslun set forth these ideas, they followed through with them, and have rigidly maintained them. This never happened with Communism though, as power has slowly migrated back into the hands of a few.

So there you have it OP. Those at the time of Koslun didn't see it as a sacrifice of individualism, they saw a better society and strove for that. Perhaps individualism was lost along the way. They don't see what they might have lost, only what they have gained.


That's not to say it's all flowers and sunshine either. They have ways of reeducating those who go astray.

Fenris: I still can't believe Hawke saved you.
Isabela: You've been saying that for years. Would you have turned me over to the Qunari?
Fenris: No, but I know what they do to their prisoners.
Isabela: Execute them horribly, I imagine.
Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
Isabela: Oh.
Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's/she's standing right there.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 août 2012 - 03:57 .

[ethanarc]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh Thank you ardently dude!

This is mainly what I was wondering about & it would make sense that a majority of the species/people were unhappy with the way things were & would be willing to try another way; more to the point, try a new way that seeks to make sure their previous situation does not arise again

[Heimdall]

nightscrawl wrote...
That's not to say it's all flowers and sunshine either.

Actually, I'm beginning to think there are no flowers and sunshine under the Qun...<_<

[Wulfram]

I think it's more "Brave New World" than communism. Though without the orgies, apparently.

[ethanarc]

Lord Aesir wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
That's not to say it's all flowers and sunshine either.

Actually, I'm beginning to think there are no flowers and sunshine under the Qun...<_<

(Lol) Yeah, they just want you to 'Know Your Role & Shut Your Mouth' (Lmao) 

[nightscrawl]

Wulfram wrote...

I think it's more "Brave New World" than communism. Though without the orgies, apparently.

I was speaking more about how it came about, the revolution aspect, rather than how it's maintained.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Actually, I'm beginning to think there are no flowers and sunshine under the Qun...<_<

People tend to think that however their own society does something is the best way, and that other peoples only think they are happy/satisfied because they don't know any better. This is the same type of thinking faced by native peoples for centuries as missionaries arrived in the New World and other lands, trying to convert them. The Qunari are certainly as guilty of this as any others, but they are not inherantly more right or more wrong than those others who have similar views (that their own society is the best). They are the same.

People who exist under the Qun, like Tallis, who have known both sides, can see that the Qun has its problems, much like all societies. She never claims they are perfect. She feels, and rightly so I think, that there is some merit in a society where everyone has a place and a value, and everyone contributes to the functioning of society in their own way, rather than what she experienced as an elf, considered by humans to be worthless trash.

Much has been made of Tallis's line "It's not easy, being an elf in the Qun," as people tend to think that she is referring to a similar racism experienced in the human lands. I however think that the line is open to interpretation and can in fact refer to any non-Kossith that joins the Qun -- I also discount most of DA: Redemption, as DG has made comments in the past about something either not being accurate, or just something that Felicia Day was responsible for, not Bioware, and is therefore not official lore -- It would naturally be more difficult for a person of another race who was not born to it as the Kossith are. I think the same about the Arishok's line "The Qun from an elf? The madness of this place," particularly since he says Hawke "keep[s] good company," referring to Fenris, since he spake the Qun, and later on makes no disparaging remarks about the two elves who convert in Act 2.


At any rate, elves aren't the only ones who experience that kind of life. There were quite a few humans in the Kirkwall sewers as I recall, and "Ferelden refugee" was a practically a slur. Faced with that versus the Qun, is it really so surprising that people would go to it willingly?

I am not a Qunari apologist. I do however think that some of their ideas are good, and that they are generally an interesting society, one of the most interesting non-human societies that I've seen in a game in a long time. I also think it's narrow minded for people to blindly hate the Qunari, happy to ignore the fact that they are guilty of many of the same things our own society has done, and yet those are never referenced.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:46 .