299 réponses à ce sujet

[inko1nsiderate]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Except it is, go read the evolution comic book

Ok, neither Synthesis nor Deus Ex happen in Evolution.

Wrong 

in Evolution the Ilsuive man gain his implants thrugh an energy transfence he is agumented  through energy,  just liek syntheisis,  

The Illusive Man is indoctrinated in Evolution. Notice how his eyes are identical to Saren's.

Indoctrination can be done via implantation or indoctriantion waves. And he can only get the eyes via implantation.

So it´s not wierd...

*snip*

that only in refuse and destroy are Shepard´s eyes remain normal... those implants don´t make me feel any better.

The thing is... Shepard's cybernetic implants are numerous enough and close enough to her skin that they start showing unless you undergo a surgical procedure.  They are so numerous that they cause a red glow when the light shines through blood vessels and other tissues (just like shinning a light through your thumb makes it look red).  That is why they look blue after the skin is burnt away, but appear red in Shepard's 'scaring'.  I can understand how it is an argument for IT, but I just think the visual can be interpreted differently.  It is the shocking revelation near the end on just how cybernetic Shepard is.  In this respect, I see IT as one of many possible interpretations.

[inko1nsiderate]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Heh, some people feel superior for 'getting' it.

The endings were Hudson and Walters sticking it to EA for cracking the whip on them. "You thought we would never trash our own franchise, did you? Well, take a look at this! Hahahaa, 'synthesis'! Now we're going to Hollywood to make movies, except Mac is gonna keep churning out comic books that don't really require all that much writing and make big $$$$$$$ doing that. Screw this video game crap."

And you think you're so clever because you get how deep their art is. Congratulations.

*spoilers to the 1960s show The Prisoner follow*

Hmm, does that mean they pulled a Patrick McGoohan?  I mean, if they did, they really did it poorly.  The symbolism isn't heavy handed enough, and a renegade Shepard doesn't break any personal rules if she picks destroy. The Prisoner was canceled and so he alledgedly decided to end the show on a giant middle finger if he couldn't end the show the way he wanted.  So, at the end of the prisoner the main character, who made it clear that he hates guns and never uses them, spends a good chunk of the end of the episode blasting away people with a submachine gun as the Beatles song 'All you need is Love' plays in the background.  You might feel the ME3 ending is heavy handed, but it isn't nearly that heavy handed.  So even if they did what you claim, they did it poorly and should be chastized.  Then again, maybe I'm just looking through a glass onion.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 25 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[hostaman]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

hostaman wrote...

Loved the ending, the lack of style, the ever shifting concepts and the tonal and thematic ambiguity.

I also love the fact that I belong to the 15% minority who actually get it. (Polls put pro-enders around 15% of respondants)

And before you ask. Hell yes, I feel superior.

Now come out from you caves, and troll me!

Fixed that for you, if your so proud then tell the honest truth about your position and the game.

Firstly check your facts - Look at polls on THIS site and you'll find around 40% of gamers enjoyed ME3.

Secondly, If you need to edit my quotes to make a point, your own argument probably lacks weight.

And thirdly I'm getting pretty sick and tired of posters saying how they "spoke to a professional writer ....blah blah... and they know the ME3 writing is poor....blah blah"  Well mabye they should get off thier *** and start writing.  Some of us enjoyed the game - ending included and it kills you that you lack the emotional or intelectual maturity to appreciate that.

I appreciate that many don't like ME3 and/or it's ending. So just try seeing the other side for once, and stop trolling on a thread asking a simple question that you can not answer.

[chemiclord]

Liked it? Not really.

Thought it was the worst ending in the history of ever? Not really. I've seen worse... paging Ultima and Final Fantasy!

In fact, it was pretty much right in line with Bioware's narrative style; heavy handed morality play with a moral choice that takes pretty much none of your previous decisions into account.

Modifié par chemiclord, 25 août 2012 - 10:43 .

[jokey javik]

robertthebard wrote...

jokey javik wrote...

Some guy at game informer who reviewed it said he liked the ending and gave the game a 94 out of 100 but I think he was lying or was paid to do it remember game informer is tied in to game stop which has preorder deals with EA and ign had chobot doing a voice job for me3 so they can not be seen as a neutral party who can give an unbiased opinion,
and when ever people here said they liked the ending they usually put a just kidding short hand after the statement so the margin of people who genuinely liked the ending is a very small margin vocal or not.

So is EA the only publisher that has preorder deals with GameStop?  I mean, since you want to make this a selling point of your arguement, I'd like to hear this.  BTW, as I post this, I'm looking at a preorder bonus from another publisher that I got by ordering from GameStop.  Since there were people post release, pre EC that liked the endings, I guess we have to dismiss that this reviewer might have actually been one, right?

But since I love conspiracy theories, I think you're paid by Bethesda to come here and sow discontent to help them sell even more copies of their games.  I also believe that by denying this connection, you are, in fact confirming it, and if you choose to not deny it, you are also confirming it.   I know, this whole trap thing sucks, and frankly, I don't believe it, unless, by saying I don't believe it means that I really do?

Yes I am a fan of bethesda and if I was getting paid then wouldn't the last month of my profile being inactive be like not showing up to work ,
or did my leviathan thread make it seem like I was sowing discontent.

okay enough conspiracy there is no place for it on the interenet oh wait nevermind.

What I meant earlier was does it strike anyone as odd that reviews from ign, game informer and many other game review companies were a bit uneven from reviews from normal unpaid gamers and lets throw angry joe into the unpaid category as well he may be well known here but he is still a neutral party,

as for the one reviewer from game informer he had only said he liked the ending without stating why but freedom of speech means the freedom to hold ones tounge as well.

As for the preorder deals yes many game companies have preorder deals with game stop and even just as a curtisy flush game informer boosts their rating up a tad but you really can't blame them for not biting the hand that feeds.

Once again no monetary connection to bethesda I can not stress that enough conspiracy now that is not my field of expertise.

Modifié par jokey javik, 26 août 2012 - 05:15 .

[corkey sweet]

Not me,

almost ruined the whole series for me. The extended cut makes it passable (barely)

Modifié par corkey sweet, 26 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[Gruntburner]

Thought the original ending was very meh. Saw what they were trying to go for, but it just didn't gel very well. I really liked the EC ending though. Not nearly my favorite ending of all time, but it satisfied me emotionally. Red Dead Redemption is probably one of my favorite endings, I just wish the pacing for the first and final acts was so atrociously slow.

[vixvicco]

I felt like I knew what they were trying to do, so I kind of did, but ultimately, it was poor.

[webhead921]

Jade empire. Now that's a good ending.

[Inprea]

I liked the ending. I found the choice between sacrificing others to destroy the reapers, sacrificing Shepards body to save everyone with the risk of Shepard losing her humanity or forcing a new state of being on everyone to be enjoyable. Mind you I never saw the original only the extended cut. I suppose I may be more used to the older games in which you didn't have any influence over what ending you got no matter what you did. So three big choices that are further influenced by your alignment and resources is just fine to me.

I just see it as the limits of what current gaming can do. If you really want to influence a story then write one yourself or pick up a D&D, White wolf rule book and find some people to get together with on weekends.

[nevar00]

who actually liked the edning?

People with bad taste?
(Just kidding)

People who enjoy being slapped in the face?
(Just kidding)

People who can look past objectively bad writing and still enjoy something?
...Yeah that sounds about right.



The game as a whole had some really awful writing (the Crucible, the Rachni, Legion, the dues ex machina ending) but some people can still look past that and enjoy it for what it is. Me? Well, I really like the movie Hard Rock Zombies. In that film, a rock band travel to a backwater hick town to play for some talent agent, only they're killed by a freaky family of perverted ****s including a wheelchair-bound knife-wielding werewolf granny and a midget who eats himself, all lead by Adolf Hitler. Only the girl involved in a borderline-pedophiliac relationship with the lead singer brings them back to life to dish out some cold revenge. Then **** zombies run wild on the town.

Now is this movie objectively badly written? Duh. Is it objectively trashy cinema? Yes. Is it subjectively good? Well I guess so because I think it's a fun watch with friends and beer. You would never catch me arguing that it's well-written though, because it just isn't. ME 3 as a whole must be the same deal.



And hey, the ending of that film is almost as bad as ME 3's. SPOILER: The zombies are all killed in a gas chamber, even though they're already dead and therefore don't breathe...

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I still haven't seen a pro-ender defend the thematic assassination, character assassination of the protagonist, or confusion of genre in the endings.

I am still waiting, wherever you may be.

This.

I did once ask someone to explain why they liked the ending.  He said he didn't care about ME1 and 2, he played them and all, but didn't remember much.  He didn't care that much about the characters either.  Didn't have an LI.  Just liked running and shooting and thought the endings looked cool and were ok.  Now, to be fair this is not typical, but he was one who answered.

One other person didn't make too much sense because they thought the endings were all really happy.  I guess some people do think that, but I just don't see it.

I've even had one person here that thinks just killing the reapers and never getting to understand them would have made them sad (this is a paraphrase-I can't remember the exact word, it wasn't sad but something similar).

[vonSlash]

The original ending was bad mainly because it was abrupt and provided no closure. The EC ending fixed that, at least for the Control and Synthesis options. Since I only ever pick those two, I'd say that I'm happy with the endings post-EC.

[o Ventus]

vonSlash wrote...

The original ending was bad mainly because it was abrupt and provided no closure. The EC ending fixed that, at least for the Control and Synthesis options. Since I only ever pick those two, I'd say that I'm happy with the endings post-EC.

No, the original endings (and still the post-EC endings) were bad, and while those may have been issues, they are certainly not the prime complaint.

[robertthebard]

jokey javik wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

jokey javik wrote...

Some guy at game informer who reviewed it said he liked the ending and gave the game a 94 out of 100 but I think he was lying or was paid to do it remember game informer is tied in to game stop which has preorder deals with EA and ign had chobot doing a voice job for me3 so they can not be seen as a neutral party who can give an unbiased opinion,
and when ever people here said they liked the ending they usually put a just kidding short hand after the statement so the margin of people who genuinely liked the ending is a very small margin vocal or not.

So is EA the only publisher that has preorder deals with GameStop?  I mean, since you want to make this a selling point of your arguement, I'd like to hear this.  BTW, as I post this, I'm looking at a preorder bonus from another publisher that I got by ordering from GameStop.  Since there were people post release, pre EC that liked the endings, I guess we have to dismiss that this reviewer might have actually been one, right?

But since I love conspiracy theories, I think you're paid by Bethesda to come here and sow discontent to help them sell even more copies of their games.  I also believe that by denying this connection, you are, in fact confirming it, and if you choose to not deny it, you are also confirming it.   I know, this whole trap thing sucks, and frankly, I don't believe it, unless, by saying I don't believe it means that I really do?

Yes I am a fan of bethesda and if I was getting paid then wouldn't the last month of my profile being inactive be like not showing up to work ,
or did my leviathan thread make it seem like I was sowing discontent.

okay enough conspiracy there is no place for it on the interenet oh wait nevermind.

What I meant earlier was does it strike anyone as odd that reviews from ign, game informer and many other game review companies were a bit uneven from reviews from normal unpaid gamers and lets throw angry joe into the unpaid category as well he may be well known here but he is still a neutral party,

as for the one reviewer from game informer he had only said he liked the ending without stating why but freedom of speech means the freedom to hold ones tounge as well.

As for the preorder deals yes many game companies have preorder deals with game stop and even just as a curtisy flush game informer boosts their rating up a tad but you really can't blame them for not biting the hand that feeds.

Once again no monetary connection to bethesda I can not stress that enough conspiracy now that is not my field of expertise.

The point to my post was the first paragraph, the second was to indicate that it's still possible to have fun on the BSN.  Besides, you could have just been on a very long vacation.

[Skeem]

The endings were interesting to watch, but do I like them?...no.
Reasons?
War assets were ignored..totally, both in the endings and runup to the ending.
Choices made previous games were largly ignored.
Morality makes only the slightest bit of difference.
Self sacrifice, now a cliche, too Matrix trilogy. At least, it shouldn't be the only option.

[DextroDNA]

Because we haven't had one of these theads before.

Also, what is a "edning"?

[3DandBeyond]

o Ventus wrote...

vonSlash wrote...

The original ending was bad mainly because it was abrupt and provided no closure. The EC ending fixed that, at least for the Control and Synthesis options. Since I only ever pick those two, I'd say that I'm happy with the endings post-EC.

No, the original endings (and still the post-EC endings) were bad, and while those may have been issues, they are certainly not the prime complaint.

Casey Hudson in the EC announcement interview said the endings weren't fundamentally changed and for once he was right.  They aren't.  They have more words, more talking, more narration, more explanation that makes no sense, and happy slide shows.  And that made it all better?  The choices were the fundamental flaw.  They came from out of nowhere, don't solve the goal, are not satisfactory in solving the reaper problem (dead reapers solves it) or if they do, they exact an arbitrary cost.  Instead of working and fighting hard to destroy the reapers, you are given "easy" ways out.  Sure, Shepard mostly will die, but the sun shines and everyone is smiling and they'll forget all about all that soon enough.  It looks sooooo cool.  So much for the role playing aspect of the game.  In the ending you have an even bigger illusion of doing something-every once in awhile you press a button on the controller so that Shepard can ask a nonsensical question that never gets a real answer.  But who cares right?  Green eyes!  Shepard the god!  Ha ha ha, funny dead geth and dead EDI.  Woot!

If this is the best this galaxy could muster then it deserves refuse/reject.  Shepard should have run off with his/her LI 5 years ago and maintained his/her character, dignity, and personality.

[MythicalStick]

I didn't exactly love it, but I didn't hate it either. The one thing I did dislike more than the ending, were the overinvested individuals who went guano crazy over it. Cried when Optimus Prime got killed, did you? Swore off Star Trek when Spock died huh? 
Yes, yes. I understand those deaths were done better. I understand there was a major difference in investment between a character you played, and a character you watched. I remember when my first character was killed in D&D. I was 10 years old and still trying to beat Zelda (the first one). I still handled it better. First thing you should learn when playing a role playing game is that your character is going to die eventually, so the best thing you can hope for is to go out with style. The second thing you learn is that the DM is always right. If you think they suck then you can walk away, complaining about it is not going to help.
In terms of going out style, Shep did not exactly get the best treatment. Mordin got better treatment. Thane got better treatment. Zaeed got better treatment. But in the end, Shep still gets to go out while saving the entire dang galaxy. Not too shabby. 
In the end, that was the ONLY thing that mattered to me. There are plenty of other problems with the ending, but they were imperfections rather than ruinous for me. I imagine it was something like being able to finally consummate my desire with Brooklyn Decker, only to find, at the moment of truth, that she has halitosis, b.o., and simultaneously burps and farts as she climaxes. Not exactly perfect, but she's still Brooklyn Decker!
The writers kind of burped and farted on me. Sok, I forgive them. 

[hostaman]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I still haven't seen a pro-ender defend the thematic assassination, character assassination of the protagonist, or confusion of genre in the endings.

I am still waiting, wherever you may be.

This.

I did once ask someone to explain why they liked the ending.  He said he didn't care about ME1 and 2, he played them and all, but didn't remember much.  He didn't care that much about the characters either.  Didn't have an LI.  Just liked running and shooting and thought the endings looked cool and were ok.  Now, to be fair this is not typical, but he was one who answered.

One other person didn't make too much sense because they thought the endings were all really happy.  I guess some people do think that, but I just don't see it.

I've even had one person here that thinks just killing the reapers and never getting to understand them would have made them sad (this is a paraphrase-I can't remember the exact word, it wasn't sad but something similar).

And what is it with the continual "bad writing"?

It's a video game, not Tolstoy.  It's meant to be simple and broad brush so that cave dwelling teenage nerds can understand it.

[3DandBeyond]

hostaman wrote...

And what is it with the continual "bad writing"?

It's a video game, not Tolstoy.  It's meant to be simple and broad brush so that cave dwelling teenage nerds can understand it.

One doesn't have to be Tolstoy to write well.  ME was not for as you put it "cave dwelling teenage nerds" and that's rather insulting to anyone who played it as well as teenagers.  That's a really horrid stereotype..

But this is part of what is wrong with it-it should have been more simplistic in a way at the end, but someone decided to try to be Stanley Kubrick and went off into their version of what life is about or something like that.

They opened themselves up to this by claiming artistic integrity for endings that were derivatives of other people's works.  And people here even defended this as their intellectual property, but they had to concern for the IP the ending was derived from.

It is a real conundrum that the endings appeal more to people who really looked at the games as great stories and not just action gun and runners.  Many of the pro-ending comments (not all) say how cool green eyes and Shepard god is.  That is the problem.  Had the ending been more about action where action was needed, it would have made for a better story.  It's what the writers didn't get.  They didn't want it to be video gamey-this is another term pro-enders have used a lot.  And this ending isn't video gamey, but it isn't good story-wise either.

We didn't want Tolstoy, didn't need Kubrick, or Hawking, even.  The ending needed the conflict to be resolved as the story promised and it needed a big bang, the cataclysm of a galaxy trying to survive.  We should have been forcefully trying to take Earth and Palaven and Thessia and Tuchanka and the galaxy back.  Instead, we were asking to get it back and given a chance to do so by helping our foe.  I'd have preferred video gamey.  And I'm no teenage boy.  In fact, on these forums I've talked with people from all walks of life and all ages (incredibly some are older than me), and from all over the globe.  ME has had something Bioware ignored-a hugely diverse audience of rabid fans.  They ignored that, they turned on it, and they gave in and began a downward spiral to CoD: ME.  Then at the end, they tried to go intellectual and it failed IMO because it isn't and it didn't fit with the story that went before.

No, not Tolstoy, nor even Stephen King, or Danielle Steele, or Michael Crichton.  It's a mish mosh of ideas and endings pasted onto a previously fairly coherent story. 

I didn't want one big boss fight, but certainly kicking Harbinger's face in would have been grand.  A boss fight is considered by many to be too video gamey (surprise, I agree this is a video game), so definitely this is not.  Because we got a boss conversation.  And a gasping torso and over the top space magic and fantasy is somehow evidence of artistic integrity, at the exact place in the game where most of the heavy action should be taking place and where any good war story would be using conflict to bring about resolution.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 août 2012 - 06:04 .

[o Ventus]

hostaman wrote...

And what is it with the continual "bad writing"?

It's a video game, not Tolstoy.  It's meant to be simple and broad brush so that cave dwelling teenage nerds can understand it.

My "ignorant jackass alert" just imploded.

[Shepard108278]

jahaa wrote...

I like the Ending and i enjoy the game everytime i play it. I never felt attached to the Cerberus gang, so i'm glad to see in the Normandy the old squadmates with some great new additions like Javik or Cortez.

same except i like miranda and most from me2 but otherwise i agree.

[anmiro]

I was dissappointed, but not enough to let ruin the game for me or to complain about it for five months.

[hostaman]

3DandBeyond wrote...

hostaman wrote...

And what is it with the continual "bad writing"?

It's a video game, not Tolstoy.  It's meant to be simple and broad brush so that cave dwelling teenage nerds can understand it.

One doesn't have to be Tolstoy to write well.  ME was not for as you put it "cave dwelling teenage nerds" and that's rather insulting to anyone who played it as well as teenagers.  That's a really horrid stereotype..

But this is part of what is wrong with it-it should have been more simplistic in a way at the end, but someone decided to try to be Stanley Kubrick and went off into their version of what life is about or something like that.

They opened themselves up to this by claiming artistic integrity for endings that were derivatives of other people's works.  And people here even defended this as their intellectual property, but they had to concern for the IP the ending was derived from.

It is a real conundrum that the endings appeal more to people who really looked at the games as great stories and not just action gun and runners.  Many of the pro-ending comments (not all) say how cool green eyes and Shepard god is.  That is the problem.  Had the ending been more about action where action was needed, it would have made for a better story.  It's what the writers didn't get.  They didn't want it to be video gamey-this is another term pro-enders have used a lot.  And this ending isn't video gamey, but it isn't good story-wise either.

We didn't want Tolstoy, didn't need Kubrick, or Hawking, even.  The ending needed the conflict to be resolved as the story promised and it needed a big bang, the cataclysm of a galaxy trying to survive.  We should have been forcefully trying to take Earth and Palaven and Thessia and Tuchanka and the galaxy back.  Instead, we were asking to get it back and given a chance to do so by helping our foe.  I'd have preferred video gamey.  And I'm no teenage boy.  In fact, on these forums I've talked with people from all walks of life and all ages (incredibly some are older than me), and from all over the globe.  ME has had something Bioware ignored-a hugely diverse audience of rabid fans.  They ignored that, they turned on it, and they gave in and began a downward spiral to CoD: ME.  Then at the end, they tried to go intellectual and it failed IMO because it isn't and it didn't fit with the story that went before.

No, not Tolstoy, nor even Stephen King, or Danielle Steele, or Michael Crichton.  It's a mish mosh of ideas and endings pasted onto a previously fairly coherent story. 

I didn't want one big boss fight, but certainly kicking Harbinger's face in would have been grand.  A boss fight is considered by many to be too video gamey (surprise, I agree this is a video game), so definitely this is not.  Because we got a boss conversation.  And a gasping torso and over the top space magic and fantasy is somehow evidence of artistic integrity, at the exact place in the game where most of the heavy action should be taking place and where any good war story would be using conflict to bring about resolution.

My apologies. The vast quantity of brainless trolls on this site are making me post angry, one paragraph responses to sensible points, I should try not to stoop to that level. Sorry once again.

Your point is very well made, and maybe it represents a cross roads between the traditional teen "shoot-em-up while swearing" game culture, and the more mature adult game types starting to come out like heavy rain and LA Noire.

Maybe we've hit upon one of the biggest reasons that ME3 is so divisive. Maybe BW were trying to please too many different camps (possibly under EA direction) i.e. the story and dialogue is simple and hammy at times, while the underlying story is trying to explore more complex themes like self sacrifice.  In the same way that the markets for 2001 and star wars are different, maybe the ME fan club is more mature than BW believed, but mature in a way that they maybe understood the characters more than BW themselves.

I've said before, I believe that ME3 marks a watershed moment in gaming. But I'm not sure what it teaches devs like BW for the future.  It might mean that future games will play it safe, which would be a shame. Or maybe it's time for games like ME to be written the same way as long running TV shows, with an underlying framework that is consistent, so that the theme and tone do not suddenly shift as they seemed to in ME3.

I enjoy discussing these complex ideas, and appreciate thoughtfull posters such as yourself.  Much As I did enjoy both ME2 and ME3, I do understand what you're saying. I just which more people on here would engage in this kind of debate.  I tend to spend most time in the MP forum at present as I find this one is just too depressing.

But I must avoid posting short angry reposts, as I would ask of all genuine ME fans.