108 réponses à ce sujet

[SarEnyaDor]

Jesus and Joan or Arc don't exist in Thedas, first of all.

Second, one could totally argue that Jesus was delusional because his mother lied to him about how he was conceived so spent his whole life thinking he was the child of a god instead of Joseph's son because Mary and Joseph didn't want her to be stoned to death for forgetting to pull out.

Third, Joan of Arc also saw lights and heard voices and was at the classic age that schizoprenia usually strikes.

Fourth, these people don't exist in Thedas!!!!

Fifth, Lelianna admits she had a dream, she was alseep when she had it, she calls it a vision because it was like no "normal" dream. If you talk to her enough she admits that she did this for the attention because she missed her life as a bard and was afraid of becoming another drab sister and not being special anymore. (After you kill Marjoline and you tell her to be who she is)

Kind of hard to picture Joan of Arc admitting to that........

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 23 décembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[Squiggles1334]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Andraste sounds more like Joan of Arc than Leliana, considering it was Andraste who led the first Exalted March and then was burned at the stake and revered posthumously as a chosen of the Maker...

We're talking about the NEXT Andraste aka Joan of Arc(if you will).

And it is a very tenuous theory at best to me.

[TheMadCat]

@SarEnyaDor: Well that's sort of what I see being set up, this is a world filled with some dark and sinister stuff after all. On the surface it does seem as if they want to continue on with this characters story because there are several hints at it. If that is indeed there plan and they (hopefully) decide to not canonize a specific ending, well that's their door in. The whole ending across the board made it seem like the devs/writers were rather uncertain in what exact direction they were going in, or they enjoy messing with minds and causing lots of wild speculation.



@Squiggles: I do agree, lots of people look at Leliana as a simple overemotional nutjob. While she does make a few statements that support that theory, I find her overall to be a lot deeper then she actually appears on the surface. She does seem to have a great control over her emotions and of herself, the whole sequence with Marjolaine I thought showed that rather well.



Like I said we as human beings want conclusions and this particular epilogue didn't give much of it. Like Original said, we look at it in terms of what we can "relate" too first and derive our answer from there, we pull in what appears to be the most obvious to us. It's simply what we come to expect in a tragic ending. A Romeo & Juliet style ending I suppose, tragic for the lovers.

[Squiggles1334]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Andraste sounds more like Joan of Arc than Leliana, considering it was Andraste who led the first Exalted March and then was burned at the stake and revered posthumously as a chosen of the Maker...

We're talking about the NEXT Andraste aka Joan of Arc(if you will).

And it is a very tenuous theory at best to me.

Hmmm....Mother Theresa.

Now we're talkin'! 

[Original182]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Hmmm....Mother Theresa.

Now we're talkin'! 

Oh my poor head can't take all this.... go easy on me please.....

[SarEnyaDor]

I was giving you examples of how each of those people could be called delusional, or unhinged, because you seemed to imply that if I thought Lelianna was nutty what did that make those guys?



I could see maybe in 30 years Lelianna, if she is alive, and has gone off to the Chanty to contemplate the Maker could be a Mother Theresea type, but like I said, until she leads an army against an oppressive regime the only thing she has connecting her to Andraste is the ability to sing, and the only thing connecting her to Joan of Arc really is .... a vision she recants.

[Original182]

Yes but I don't know how attacking real-life religion actually makes your points stronger. All it does is just shows that maybe you have some form of intolerance in you. Leliana being delusional also has nothing to do with whether or not she is like Andraste.

Like I've said, I also didn't go so far as to think Leliana is the next Andraste. But after people put 2 and 2 together by saying both Leliana and Andraste can sing, and both Leliana and Andraste claim to receive visions from the Maker, they have some minor case going on.

[SarEnyaDor]

I wasn't attacking real-life religion, I was giving an argument that would show those two examples as being thought of as delusional.

edited to add -> Attacking real life religion would be if I said that was the ONLY possible answer, and that people who believed otherwise were delusional. I said no such thing.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 23 décembre 2009 - 05:49 .

[Bomfy]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Because the phrase "return to the Maker" is used alot throughout the game as what happens when you die, it stands to reason that some might see her returning to the Maker as her killing herself.

Also, how can you see that eyelashes scene and NOT think she's unhinged and clingy???

Agreed fully and completely.  I thought I was the only person here that thought the eyelash scene put her on crazy status for sure.

[trueKieran]

Just a small sidenote... Jeanne d'Arc, obviously better known as Joan of Arc here, is called Johanna von Orléans in german. It is a funny "coincidence" that not only Leliana appearently speaks with a frech accent in the english version and comes from a country with obvious similarities to France, like the frech town names for example, but that this country Orlais also sounds very much like Orléans.

Edit: One last thing, if someone happens to really be interested in Jeanne d'Arc's story, I highly recommend the use of affitional sources and not just a movie.

Modifié par trueKieran, 23 décembre 2009 - 08:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well the guardian pretty much destroyed her beliefs.



Whether Leliana is the "new Andraste" or not, you can bet that the chantry will not like it.

[TheMadCat]

I think there is one element misunderstood from that specific epilogue. It never stated that she did have another vision from the maker, I believe the word presumed or perhaps is what was used. The only things that appeared to be certain were the ballad she wrote and telling the maid that she would see her love again soon. The vision itself was simply an assumption on why she told the maid what she did.

[robertthebard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Jesus and Joan or Arc don't exist in Thedas, first of all.

Second, one could totally argue that Jesus was delusional because his mother lied to him about how he was conceived so spent his whole life thinking he was the child of a god instead of Joseph's son because Mary and Joseph didn't want her to be stoned to death for forgetting to pull out.

Third, Joan of Arc also saw lights and heard voices and was at the classic age that schizoprenia usually strikes.

Fourth, these people don't exist in Thedas!!!!

Fifth, Lelianna admits she had a dream, she was alseep when she had it, she calls it a vision because it was like no "normal" dream. If you talk to her enough she admits that she did this for the attention because she missed her life as a bard and was afraid of becoming another drab sister and not being special anymore. (After you kill Marjoline and you tell her to be who she is)

Kind of hard to picture Joan of Arc admitting to that........

Did Alistair give you his rose?  Did he happen to mention where he got it?  Understand that I know he tells you where he got it, and the point is, how does Leliana finish the tale about her vision?  The dead rose bush that had a single rose on it, that Alistair stole...

[AntiChri5]

Alright, ive put up with a lot of **** from this "Maker" and end up dying to kill the damn darkspawn he created because he was having a bad day, but now he steals my bloody girlfreind! The Maker is sooooo dead

[robertthebard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Alright, ive put up with a lot of **** from this "Maker" and end up dying to kill the damn darkspawn he created because he was having a bad day, but now he steals my bloody girlfreind! The Maker is sooooo dead

Sign me up, sergeant.

[TheMadCat]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Alright, ive put up with a lot of **** from this "Maker" and end up dying to kill the damn darkspawn he created because he was having a bad day, but now he steals my bloody girlfreind! The Maker is sooooo dead

Have to admit that'd be one hell of a plot line.

[Dracotamer]

I would just see the phrase as her dying. Not even remotely as her killing herself.

[AntiChri5]

robertthebard wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Alright, ive put up with a lot of **** from this "Maker" and end up dying to kill the damn darkspawn he created because he was having a bad day, but now he steals my bloody girlfreind! The Maker is sooooo dead

Sign me up, sergeant.

Send messages to the Tevinter mages!! We march on the Black City at noon!!

[robertthebard]

Woo hoo...Um, I read on the forum that those guys are actually based in Orlais, any confirmation?

[SarEnyaDor]

robertthebard wrote...

Did Alistair give you his rose?  Did he happen to mention where he got it?  Understand that I know he tells you where he got it, and the point is, how does Leliana finish the tale about her vision?  The dead rose bush that had a single rose on it, that Alistair stole...

Are you saying Alistair deflowered Lelianna??!!?? LOL

Yes, I did get the rose, and I did think it was probably the same rose (I wanted to be able to show it to Lelianna and say sorry, the Maker's sign got nerfed by a love-struck guy) but I'm not sure how that relates at all to whether or not Lelianna is like Joan of Arc...

[robertthebard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Did Alistair give you his rose?  Did he happen to mention where he got it?  Understand that I know he tells you where he got it, and the point is, how does Leliana finish the tale about her vision?  The dead rose bush that had a single rose on it, that Alistair stole...

Are you saying Alistair deflowered Lelianna??!!?? LOL

Yes, I did get the rose, and I did think it was probably the same rose (I wanted to be able to show it to Lelianna and say sorry, the Maker's sign got nerfed by a love-struck guy) but I'm not sure how that relates at all to whether or not Lelianna is like Joan of Arc...

It's just a thing that can validate her vision, as I saw it.  As to Joan of Arc, pffft.  That's why I didn't comment on that.

Regarding Alistair and Leliana, considering her past, and that I did harden her, I think Alistair would have woke up needing Wynne's services.

Ahhh, I missed my chance at a good line:  Alistair, does he like girls?

Modifié par robertthebard, 23 décembre 2009 - 09:19 .