108 réponses à ce sujet

[SarEnyaDor]

He says: "No one has spoken to the Maker since Andraste, do you think you are Andraste?" That's pretty much a slap-down if ever I heard one.

[Squiggles1334]

You say slap-down, I say extra firm test of resolve!

[Daramones]

Leliana got the last laugh on the guardian though. After she sang the Dirge she wrote for the warden, the maker came and took her too, just like he took andraste when he was moved by her song.

Apparently the maker really likes a good song.

[vaesapiens]

Isn't there a plot statement that "the warden and the archedemon souls are destroyed" ? So technically she could not see us even if she comitted suicide, because our soul was annihilated, thus making me think that a) she is crazy miracle-> DA2, even tho the pc died.

[AntiChri5]

Daramones wrote...

Leliana got the last laugh on the guardian though. After she sang the Dirge she wrote for the warden, the maker came and took her too, just like he took andraste when he was moved by her song.
Apparently the maker really likes a good song.

Then the maker is...a groupie!?

[Squiggles1334]

Uhh, don't take any of the codex entries as factually sound and unbiased. They ARE being written from an in-universe perspective, so you can't accept them as law and truth necessarily.

[Gold Dragon]

vaesapiens wrote...

Isn't there a plot statement that "the warden and the archedemon souls are destroyed" ? So technically she could not see us even if she comitted suicide, because our soul was annihilated, thus making me think that a) she is crazy miracle-> DA2, even tho the pc died.

So Riordan said.  I preffer to think of it as:  The collision of the Two Souls cause the Death of the Host (Warden), and since the Archdemon is bound now to the Body of the Warden, it too must die a true death, due to the Altered Taint within the Warden it also cannot find another host.

[Daramones]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Daramones wrote...

Leliana got the last laugh on the guardian though. After she sang the Dirge she wrote for the warden, the maker came and took her too, just like he took andraste when he was moved by her song.
Apparently the maker really likes a good song.

Then the maker is...a groupie!?

hmm either that or a really harsh critic.

[TheMadCat]

"Leliana remained in the royal court for a time, mourning. She poured
her heart into a ballad that would eventually become known throughout
Thedas. But after one performance, Leliana quietly vanished. Some say
that the Maker came to her in a vision again that night. Smiling, tears
in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last."

The bolded, underlined part I think is key here. It wasn't Leliana who said she had another vision, rather that's what many are simply presuming that led to her actions. All we know is she told some maid that she would see her love and quietly vanished. What drove exactly drove her to this notion is unknown, perhaps a vision, grief and denial, maybe some Tevintar mages told her they could bring the PC back to life. That's what really kind of makes this difficult to interrupt. If it said falt out she thought it was a vison, I'd be more inclined to assume crazy and killed herself/died fighting.

Isn't there a plot statement that "the warden and the archedemon souls
are destroyed" ? So technically she could not see us even if she
comitted suicide, because our soul was annihilated, thus making me
think that a) she is crazy miracle-> DA2, even tho the pc died.

I'm not sure how literal to take that whole soul is destroyed thing. It could simply be a euphemism for death. Really the whole essence thing is a confusing mystery to me. The ritual alone completely defies everything the Warden's think they know.

[The Angry One]

If hearing voices and being suicidal qualifies one as a messiah then they'd be a lot more common..

[Gold Dragon]

TheMadCat wrote...

"Leliana remained in the royal court for a time, mourning. She poured
her heart into a ballad that would eventually become known throughout
Thedas. But after one performance, Leliana quietly vanished. Some say
that the Maker came to her in a vision again that night. Smiling, tears
in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last."

The bolded, underlined part I think is key here. It wasn't Leliana who said she had another vision, rather that's what many are simply presuming that led to her actions. All we know is she told some maid that she would see her love and quietly vanished. What drove exactly drove her to this notion is unknown, perhaps a vision, grief and denial, maybe some Tevintar mages told her they could bring the PC back to life. That's what really kind of makes this difficult to interrupt. If it said falt out she thought it was a vison, I'd be more inclined to assume crazy and killed herself/died fighting.

Perhaps.  But the Death by grieving came across as completely in character for her (at least to me).  She struck me as a young(ish) lady who grew to view her profession (assassin) with distaste, and was trying to remake herself.  She also came across as someone who used sex (and for that matter, so did Zevran) as a weapon.  She also did not know true love, until the PC romances her.

And then to have it all taken away by death...  Something that not everyone can survive.

[TheMadCat]

Actually she compares you and her love for you to how she felt about Marjolaine prior to her betrayal and I could argue betrayal of that magnitude would have a much larger emotional effect on one then death, yet she seemed to come out of that incident rather sound emotionally, minus the odd quirk here and there. So if she moved on from that tragedy I don't see why she couldn't move on from this one.

[The Angry One]

TheMadCat wrote...

Actually she compares you and her love for you to how she felt about Marjolaine prior to her betrayal and I could argue betrayal of that magnitude would have a much larger emotional effect on one then death, yet she seemed to come out of that incident rather sound emotionally, minus the odd quirk here and there. So if she moved on from that tragedy I don't see why she couldn't move on from this one.

Did she? Let's remember that after Marjolaine's betrayal, she fled to the Chantry in Ferelden and started hearing voices.
I don't call schitzophrenia a good way to handle any situation.

[Gold Dragon]

Other than the fact that I didn't Harden her, and never had the Marjolaine encounter.....

[TheMadCat]

Let's also remember it was a dream which she didn't know what to make of it until she saw the rose blooming on the dead bush and not some random voice in her saying saying "Hey red hair chick, go help the dude with the sword." Along with that, the only two Grey Wardens within thousands of miles just happen to stroll across her path, the only ones who can stop the Blight. So looking at it from the plot, you know you can discount it all as crazy when you look at just how many pieces fell into place.

Her fleeing I thought was a natural reaction, remember she wasn't fleeing Marjolaine but her government, at least that's what she said I believe.

Other than the fact that I didn't Harden her, and never had the Marjolaine encounter.....

I didn't harden her either, but yeah you missed quite a chunk if you didn't do Marjolaine's encounter.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 24 décembre 2009 - 01:19 .

[Gold Dragon]

TheMadCat wrote...
I didn't harden her either, but yeah you missed quite a chunk if you didn't do Marjolaine's encounter.

So I gather.  But is it really my fault if every 3 of 5 encounters are the Wolf Ambush?

[TheMadCat]

As far as I know it's scripted to be the next encounter once you give her Andraste's Grace.

[The Angry One]

You don't need the flower actually, just get her to a certain approval level and have her talk about Marjolaine. The "speak of the devil" rule comes into effect and the next encounter will be her ambush, but she has to be in your party.

[Gold Dragon]

Heh. What approval Level, and/or Dialogue?

[Avaraen]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

You say slap-down, I say extra firm test of resolve!

My thought exactly... and a test I think the character passed - she pretty much told him off for questioning her.

[The Angry One]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Heh. What approval Level, and/or Dialogue?

I forget, around 60-70 I think.
She will initiate the dialog in camp, after you've used up all dialog options about her past.

[TheMadCat]

Damn, thought I read somewhere you had to give her the flower. Do as Angry One says then, just get high approval and drag her around a bit

[The Angry One]

Nah the flower isn't needed. It does however help with it's approval boost.

[robertthebard]

It starts with a dialog about how she wound up in the Chantry. You can pursue what she did before in that chain. She will lie to you, sort of, and say that she sheltered from a storm and didn't want to leave. I say sort of because she actually was hiding from a storm, just not weather. Leave camp and come back, and you should get ambushed by her into the next tree with "I lied to you, you know, about why I came to Ferelden...". The next ambush encounter, if she's in party should be the assassin from Marjolaine. In point of fact, I make it a point to go to Denerim after that convo with her in party, so I can just wrap that part up.

[trueKieran]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

vaesapiens wrote...

Isn't there a plot statement that "the warden and the archedemon souls are destroyed" ? So technically she could not see us even if she comitted suicide, because our soul was annihilated, thus making me think that a) she is crazy miracle-> DA2, even tho the pc died.

So Riordan said.  I preffer to think of it as:  The collision of the Two Souls cause the Death of the Host (Warden), and since the Archdemon is bound now to the Body of the Warden, it too must die a true death, due to the Altered Taint within the Warden it also cannot find another host.

Does anyone have a savegame shortly before the conversation for exact wording? Because as far as I remember in the geman version at least, he only says that it also causes the death of the warden, not the destruction of his souls.