770 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravauviel]

ejoslin wrote...
Pithy summary: Alistair is weak of character...

Your entire argument unfortunately rests on that tenuous premise which in itself is untenable since it is based on the "roleplayer's" perspective (a point you have iterated quite a few times in your post). I and many others however do not believe him to be "weak" and Skadi_the_Evil_Elf articulated the reasons quite beautifully. The argument over Alistair's so called "flawed" character is therefore rendered moot by virtue of the PC's personal "roleplay" attribution of the motivation behind Alistair's actions.

Modifié par Ravauviel, 25 décembre 2009 - 05:36 .

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...

I am calling Alistair weak, not a wimp, not lesser.  He's not a strong man; that's not necessarily a bad thing.  There is so much wonderful about Alistair.  If he were strong, the chemestry would not be nearly what it is.  He is what he is, and that's why the story is so compelling!

I guess it depends on your definition of strength, and whether or not a character can be called so based upon their consistency.

My first impression of Alistair was that he was strong.  He was in his element at Ostagar surrounded by his fellow Grey Wardens and led by Duncan.  He really came across as my senior there, despite being new to the order himself, and his guidance was greatly appreciated in the Wilds.

It wasn't until the battle ended that you got to see a clear glimpse at Alistair's other side, and once again I can't fault his behavior.  He lost his father figure, family, and brother all in one evening.  Tack on the knowledge that as Cailan's brother, he will likely have to assume the throne, and the Alistair we've come to know is gone.

It was a 'moment of weakness', but does that make him a weak character?  If you need a character to consistently act strong in order to be labeled as such, then yes, Alistair is weak.  If you judge by end results--well, then the answer is going to depend solely upon one's play through because it's the player who completely controls the outcome of his character in this circumstance.

I tend to judge by end results, so Alistair was a strong character in my play through--albeit, one with shortcomings, but those can be found in anyone, which isn't to dissimlar from what you've already said, I think.

I do agree with you that faults are hardly a bad thing to find in characters.  In fact, I downright HATE flawless characters.  There's no potential for growth if they're already perfect, and any 'drama' you try to inflict upon them is just... dry.  This is the reason I will never read books about... vampires that sparkle... and such...  *cough*

[Original182]

I watched forbidden vampire love and as a guy, I thought it was ok. But I thought Buffy and Angel was more original and first.

[MorningBird]

Original182 wrote...

I watched forbidden vampire love and as a guy, I thought it was ok. But I thought Buffy and Angel was more original and first.

You are a braver soul than me, good sir.

I Just... can't, I really, really can't.

[Felene]

I think Alistair is childish.

He is lack of self-confidants and very inexperience.

Thus make him a little bit immature sometimes.

He needs someone to support him otherwise he ended up a drunk in the game.

Well, at least he is not a fool and you can trust him, so, good enough I suppose.

For the topic I still prefer Zevran, don't get me wrong Alistair was my first romance option and I do love his character.

It's just romance him results unhappy endings.

PC either die for him or he die for the PC.

What's worse, PC force Morrigan on him and make that name stick to the back of his mind at all times.

No, I like happy endings, at least let my PC die for him.

But reality is cruel, he die for my PC in my first playthrough... (T.T)

p.s. We need a crying smiley.

Modifié par Felene, 25 décembre 2009 - 06:52 .

[Original182]

Felene wrote...
p.s. We need a crying smiley.

-> -> -> ->

[Felene]

Original182 wrote...

Felene wrote...
p.s. We need a crying smiley.

-> -> -> ->

something like:

Modifié par Felene, 25 décembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[Rathany]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, and if you don't harden Alistair...

Am I the only one who giggles at talk of 'hardening' Alistair or Zevran?


Sorry, I am a bad, bad, immature person

[Sialater]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Call me unromantic, but I don't require a man to give up everything for me. It makes me uncomfortable. Bhelen remade Dwarven society so that he could be with his love. He didn't remake it because it was dying. Right result, wrong motivation.

The non-human/mage PC as queen would further destabilize a country that had gone through a Blight and a civil war at the same time. I think one more social change would be the straw that would break the camel's back. Perhaps Alistair, hardened or unhardened, can see that. The Dwarves aren't quite in as bad a shape as Ferelden. From everything I've seen in Orzammar, the place was cesspool BEFORE the instability of the succession.

Ferelden had fought off the Orlesians only one generation before. Then, before they've fully cemented their own stability, a Blight comes along, a regicide occurs, and a civil war breaks out. I think it's very astute for Alistair to admit he can't handle making you a target of further unrest among the Bannorn (because that's exactly what would happen) and the common citizens of Ferelden. And then there's the whole heir thing, leading to further instability -- but that's another thread.

I like Zevran, I do, but I think accusing one character of inconstancy and another of slavish devotion is a bit much. (Because yes, the way Zevran's affection is described seems to me to be rather slavish.) From what I've seen, he also never argues with you. I kinda prefer to be argued with.

QFT

The best damned response I've seen on this thread yet, and the one with far better and wiser insight on why Alistair dumos a non-human noble.

And I totally agree with your first point. I would NOT want, nor find it romantic, for someone to give up everything just to be with me. Slavish devotion seems more a manipulation/control type relationship. I would not desire a relationship with someone who required "changing". After all, how could someone really truly like someone that required "changing'? That, to me, is molding somone in my own image of what is acceptable. A big no-no, to me.

While it might seem "romantic" for someone to give up everything for you, it sows the seeds of disaster in the long term. They might later on find themselves bitter about having to give up something important, blame you, decide you weren't worth it, ect.  Then you both end up miserable. And, if you really cared about such a person, would you really want them to give up what they wanted?

What is so very appealing about the Alistair romance is that it is the one, for a female, most deeply rooted in reality. It is a conflict of heart's desire and love overshadowed and chained to a very bitter reality that is inescapable. In the real world, it's perhaps the reason you have high divorce/easy come, easy go love affairs all over the place. People allow delusions of what "twu wuv" is to guide their choice, and such relationships are ultimately incapable of surviving the real world. In game, despite Alistair's idealism and feelings, he realizes that no matter what he feels, that ugly reality beast of fate simply cannot avoided, and both of you must face that reality and frigging well deal with it, and make some hard, unpleasant descisions and sacrifices if you really want to stay together. Just like.....THE REAL WORLD. It's just not all about you. 

It is what you are willing to deal with, out up with, and live with in order to remain soul mates with your chosen that is the true test of love. A shiny ring on your finger is not the end result of love. Staying together through the years until your time in the deep roads comes is.

I also agree it is wonderful to be argued with. Alistair does it with far more bluntness than Zev does, which is something I like. I sometimes choose responses just to ****** Alistair off and get in a little tissy. Makes the romance far more interesting.

Thank you, Skadi.  And thanks for adding more to the explanation.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I had to check what would happen with a hardened Alistair if Anora was made queen and the PC sacrificed herself. That leaves Alistair alone. He ends up fine as long as he has someone strong by his side, be it Anora, the PC, or Eamon. He doesn't turn out well if he does not. And it's very sad. It can't be losing the PC that makes him fail in life, because this is only one of the ways that he loses her, and while it's not his most tragic ending, if he has someone strong with him, he turns out ok. It's too bad that he was willing to give up the one person who would have stood with him if he weren't king.



As a character, I think Alistair is fantastic. He's complex, he's beautiful, his heart is definitely in the right place. I like him a lot, and the romance is absolutely amazing. But I still say he's not strong. He strikes me, no matter what, as a tragic hero.



So sad having both Alistair and Zevran in love when she died. *cry*



The funny thing is, what bothers me about the Morrigan ritual is not the sex. It is that you have no clue what exactly it is you're unleashing on the world.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Call me unromantic, but I don't require a man to give up everything for me. It makes me uncomfortable.

I am a guy, and this is the most romantic thing a girl could ever say 

You're welcome.  My husband likes that view, too.  He's currently attempting to repair his Guitar Hero drums, another of his hobbies.

[ejoslin]

Cybercat999 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And I have both Zev and Alistair at 100 love so I can't even talk to them outside of Arl Eamon's estate!

When I do that my game ending bugs out completely. Very funny bugs and I chuckle a lot but bugs nevertheless. So dont be surprised if you get some odd epilogue.

No, I got the correct endings.  I have found it really gets buggy only if she's still alive -- then I get some weird ones.  I'll tell you, I want to go sacrifice Alistair now because it's the way he would have wanted it!  Poor guy

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...

The funny thing is, what bothers me about the Morrigan ritual is not the sex. It is that you have no clue what exactly it is you're unleashing on the world.

Oh god, I KNOW.

The first character I played was extremely selfish, and somewhat unhappy about being tricked into the Grey Warden's suicide brigade (at least, that's how they saw it...)

With the added pressure of having to gather/lead an army, they were not to happy to discover on the eve of battle that they would likely die fighting the Archdemon.  I think the decision of accepting Morrigan's ritual midnight shinannigans is going to haunt him for the rest of his life!

The character I'm playing now is still resentful of their life as a Warden, but more willing to take up the position that was thrust upon them, which means no ritual nonsense!

I'd like to try the sacrifice ending for the sad-Zevran epilogue, but I'm too much of a sucker for happy endings that I'll probably end up letting Loghain get the final blow.  *sigh*  One day I'll do it!

[Daneres]

I, too, would love to find a man like Alistair in real life-he's got a little bit of all the good stuff-but I agree about the Teagan thing. My first character was a Human Noble and I hoped there would be a possibility there. But alas....

[Apophis2412]

Sialater wrote...

Call me unromantic, but I don't require a man to give up everything for me. It makes me uncomfortable. Bhelen remade Dwarven society so that he could be with his love. He didn't remake it because it was dying. Right result, wrong motivation. 

What?!? I though he only married Rica for the good PR.

[Krigwin]

This has probably been asked already, but why is Leliana not a choice?

[Original182]

OP doesn't swing that way. Her thread, her rules.

[Finiffa]

MorningBird wrote...

I guess it depends on your definition of strength, and whether or not a character can be called so based upon their consistency.

My first impression of Alistair was that he was strong.  He was in his element at Ostagar surrounded by his fellow Grey Wardens and led by Duncan.  He really came across as my senior there, despite being new to the order himself, and his guidance was greatly appreciated in the Wilds.

It wasn't until the battle ended that you got to see a clear glimpse at Alistair's other side, and once again I can't fault his behavior.  He lost his father figure, family, and brother all in one evening.  Tack on the knowledge that as Cailan's brother, he will likely have to assume the throne, and the Alistair we've come to know is gone.

It was a 'moment of weakness', but does that make him a weak character?  If you need a character to consistently act strong in order to be labeled as such, then yes, Alistair is weak.  If you judge by end results--well, then the answer is going to depend solely upon one's play through because it's the player who completely controls the outcome of his character in this circumstance.

I tend to judge by end results, so Alistair was a strong character in my play through--albeit, one with shortcomings, but those can be found in anyone, which isn't to dissimlar from what you've already said, I think.

I do agree with you that faults are hardly a bad thing to find in characters.  In fact, I downright HATE flawless characters.  There's no potential for growth if they're already perfect, and any 'drama' you try to inflict upon them is just... dry.  This is the reason I will never read books about... vampires that sparkle... and such...  *cough*

I have to agree here. I started a new game yesterday to play on nightmare for the first time. I have just reached Lotheringen and actually I was surprised how strong Alistair came across in the Wilds and the Tower of Ishal, and how broken he was after that when I awoke in Flemeths place. He suddenly leaves all decisions to you and is reduced to tears everytime Duncan gets mentioned....

[Original182]

Yes, it is no different to how Zevran ran away from Antiva wanting to die because he wrongly killed his lover.

[Daneres]

If you put Alistair on the throne with Anora (though how I hate the thought because I've romanced him) and Eamon abdicates Redcliffe to Teagan then I think there should be an opportunity for your female character to be with Teagan. Huh? Who agrees with me here? I really like Teagan, so that's just a little hint for Bioware. Give us a patch or new downloadable content to accommodate this. Then there's happy endings for all! I, personally, like happy endings. Like in Jade Empire when my girl and Sky went forward into their life together.

[Daneres]

Another suggestion: I think to avoid all the unhappy, sacrifice yourself drama, there should be a third male created to follow your female character through the game that can be romanced - another human male. I have a hard time being attracted to Zevran because he's shorter than my human noble and just as hard when playing an Elf because he kinda creeps me a little (not that I haven't tried). I like my men tall and beefy, and as I said before...I like happy endings.

[ejoslin]

Female characters and male/non-romanced female characters have different motivations for doing the ritual. I thought at first that the male characters have it better as they can have it all -- king or chancellor, no demon baby, faithful love (if they choose to go that way) whereas female characters cannot have it all if they're romancing Alistair. But you do lose the glory to either Loghain or Alistair if they sacrifice themselves, which would be important to many PCs. Female characters who romanced him, however, can allow Alistair to take the glory and while heartbroken, you do end up giving Alistair through his death what he wasn't able to achieve in life. It can be seen as an act of love, letting him sacrifice himself and become a legend, as there is a lot of glory in that death.

I think Alistair actually turns out better if Anora is made solo queen if he is never romanced, though possibly he still falls to pieces if the PC sacrifices him/herself. I haven't tried THAT ending yet, though. It would be an interesting statement on whether love, if it has to be temporary, really IS worthy.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Original182]

ejoslin wrote...

Female characters and male/non-romanced female characters have different motivations for doing the ritual. I thought at first that the male characters have it better as they can have it all -- king or chancellor, no demon baby, faithful love (if they choose to go that way) whereas female characters cannot have it all if they're romancing Alistair. But you do lose the glory to either Loghain or Alistair if they sacrifice themselves, which would be important to many PCs. Female characters who romanced him, however, can allow Alistair to take the glory and while heartbroken, you do end up giving Alistair through his death what he wasn't able to achieve in life. It's can be seen as an act of love, letting him sacrifice himself and become a legend, as there is a lot of glory in that death.

No not really, both male and females have a potential "tragedy" waiting for them. Males do not have it better.
For females as you pointed out, romancing Alistair may lead to his death, or your death. But the ritual gives you a chance for both of you live and be together, at the cost of unleashing something potentially evil on the world. Though I feel a more important evil is that you let your man sleep with another woman.

For male PCs who romance Morrigan, no matter what happens, she runs away with his baby. So he gets to live, but Morrigan is gone forever, though there is hope because the male PC should have Morrigan's ring to find her.

I think females have it better actually.

Modifié par Original182, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:50 .

[sesheta255]

[quote]Finiffa wrote...

[/quote]

I have to agree here. I started a new game yesterday to play on nightmare for the first time. I have just reached Lotheringen and actually I was surprised how strong Alistair came across in the Wilds and the Tower of Ishal, and how broken he was after that when I awoke in Flemeths place. He suddenly leaves all decisions to you and is reduced to tears everytime Duncan gets mentioned....
[/quote]


I always put it down to the fact that to Alistair, Duncan was the first person to befriend him and actually listen to him and care about what he wanted, so his loss would have been a massive thing.  Alistair is accepted and treated as an equal for the first time in his life by  the other Grey Wardens and the loss of Duncan and the others would be life shattering for him.

Alistair has had a pretty lonely life.  Eamon may have taken him in but it sounds like he didn't bother with Alistair much (I'm sure Alistair comments that they didn't talk much),  then he was packed off to the chantry where the nobles called him a bastard & ignored him & the others thought he put on airs, so he didn't really have any friends.  Duncan was father, brother, friend all in one person, Duncan spent more time with Alistair in 6 months than anyone has throughout his whole life.   I can understand him not wanting to lead, he doesn't  know how,  he has never had to make any decisions for himself and has always been told what to do and how he should behave.  Duncan's loss takes away all his new found confidence and feelings of self worth.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Female characters and male/non-romanced female characters have different motivations for doing the ritual. I thought at first that the male characters have it better as they can have it all -- king or chancellor, no demon baby, faithful love (if they choose to go that way) whereas female characters cannot have it all if they're romancing Alistair. But you do lose the glory to either Loghain or Alistair if they sacrifice themselves, which would be important to many PCs. Female characters who romanced him, however, can allow Alistair to take the glory and while heartbroken, you do end up giving Alistair through his death what he wasn't able to achieve in life. It's can be seen as an act of love, letting him sacrifice himself and become a legend, as there is a lot of glory in that death.

No not really, both male and females have a potential "tragedy" waiting for them. Males do not have it better.
For females as you pointed out, romancing Alistair may lead to his death, or your death. But the ritual gives you a chance for both of you live and be together, at the cost of unleashing something potentially evil on the world. Though I feel a more important evil is that you let your man sleep with another woman.

For male PCs who romance Morrigan, no matter what happens, she runs away with his baby. So he gets to live, but Morrigan is gone forever, though there is hope because the male PC should have Morrigan's ring to find her.

I think females have it better actually.

I didn't say that males always had it better, I said they had the potential.  They can be king, have their lover stick with them if they romanced Zevran, and NOT do the ritual.  Females cannot be queen unless they do the ritual.  Of course, that depends I suppose if you think being royalty is the ultimate goal.

The most complete ending is if the PC sacrifices him/herself.  There's a certain drama queen part of me that loves watching my funeral and then seeing how everyone is so torn up.  HOWEVER, why is it, if Anora is solo queen, Alistair isn't at your funeral?