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[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

And of course, you know he will be WAAAAAY better in bed than Al. Give me a generous lover with experience and knowledge over a shy and shamed virgin any day.

Oh, you know that Alistair is going to catch up quickly in that department.  There is, for one thing, Morrigan's theory on the vigor and longevity of Grey Wardens. 

[cella ragnarokk]

Alistair no doubt! probably because, the one time i tried the zevran romance i scrued it up.....when i sais i love you, to him before entering the the city...he just said..."yeah...i know" so at the en , i hoped he would say anything new...but no! just the same shait he said when he was a friend.....so sine i hadent romansed i Alistair I ended up going with Sten on a ship.......

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

And of course, you know he will be WAAAAAY better in bed than Al. Give me a generous lover with experience and knowledge over a shy and shamed virgin any day.

Oh, you know that Alistair is going to catch up quickly in that department.  There is, for one thing, Morrigan's theory on the vigor and longevity of Grey Wardens. 

Not too sure about her theory, since the longevity part turns out to be false.  The taint is eventualy supposed to kill the wardens... it just takes a lot longer after the joining than if you were a regular person stricken with it.

Vigor, maybe, but Zev seems to have plenty of that himself.  Have you seen him on the battlefield?  OMG  If he can **** as well as he can kill, he's the MAN.  Alistair, on the other hand, spent a lot of time on his back, screeming for help.  XD

*edit*
Unrelated to my reply... I just remembered that other point I wanted to make about Zev...

He actually does use the word love, just not in english.  'Si mi ammora'... 'Yes, my love'  And he starts saying that before you his love, at Adore.  True, he never has a face to face 'OMG I love you thiiiiis much' dialogue, but I think that would be cheesy anyhow.  "I love you' is a Hallmark card.  It's an easy and often times hollow sentiment.  Telling the warden he would die for him or her, and that he would storm the black city to be at his or her side, means a whole lot more than 'I love you', especialy since he is pretty insistant on wanting to fight the archdemon with you, and calls you cruel if you leave him behind.  Also, your death will absolutely devistate him if he's in love with you.  It breaks him.  He doesn't even feal enough to want to die.  Just goes on living as an empty and fearsom husk of his former self.  He invests all of himself in his love.  No Hallmark sentiment could ever capture that kind of bond.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 13 mars 2010 - 07:38 .

[soignee]

Alistair is the first boyfriend who broke your heart, but you still got fond memories of him. He's the guy at high school or college you'll look up on facebook and be all, "huh, he's king." or "oh, a wandering drunk. OK."



Zevran however is the guy you want when you're a little older and wiser; it's a romance/relationship that is slow to grow and burns a little longer, despite the intial lust.

[Cuddlezarro]

Not too sure about her theory, since the longevity part turns out to be false. The taint is eventualy supposed to kill the wardens... it just takes a lot longer after the joining than if you were a regular person stricken with it.

SPOILERS for the calling





actually the Grey warden dies is a lie... if the taint progresses enough they actually turn into talking intelligent darkspawn

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

Not too sure about her theory, since the longevity part turns out to be false.  The taint is eventualy supposed to kill the wardens... it just takes a lot longer after the joining than if you were a regular person stricken with it.

Uh, er...  Morrigan is referring to longevity in the act of love , not long life.  She tells you that there is a theory about it based on Garahel's apparent reputation as a lover, but it's not clear whether it's because Grey Wardens are naturally physically fit or something to do with the taint.  Consider that the taint increases appetite, so it seems to rev metabolism...

I can't believe I'm typing about this.  I really need to get a life.  LOL

Vigor, maybe, but Zev seems to have plenty of that himself.  Have you seen him on the battlefield?  OMG  If he can **** as well as he can kill, he's the MAN.  Alistair, on the other hand, spent a lot of time on his back, screeming for help.  XD

Oh, come now.  I'm a Zevran fan, too, but we needn't exaggerate in either direction.

Also, your death will absolutely devistate him if he's in love with you.  It breaks him.  He doesn't even feal enough to want to die.  Just goes on living as an empty and fearsom husk of his former self.  He invests all of himself in his love.  No Hallmark sentiment could ever capture that kind of bond.

This is one of the major differences between the two romances, as I see it.  You can give Alistair a reason to live by making him king.  It's probably not the happiest life for him, and here I think of the melancholy image you get from The Calling about Maric.  But if Zevran lets himself love and then loses the Warden, he is truly devastated.  It is also an unfortunate thing that I think many players approach Zevran as a casual fling, not realizing that it quickly becomes much more for him, even though outwardly you get fewer signs of that than with Alistair.  I know that on my first character who had a roll in the hay with Zevran, I was shocked to see how hurt he was when she broke it off.  I had assumed he was simply a playboy.

If Alistair is not king, however, I hear (not having played it myself, others can confirm or deny) that if the Warden sacrifices herself, he drifts, eventually leaving the Grey Wardens.  I think he reacts so strongly to you sparing Loghain because he sees it as a personal betrayal on the part of his fellow Warden.  So in his own way, Alistair needs the Warden, too.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 mars 2010 - 07:53 .

[EccentricSage]

CZ, ah! I need to read that. Wow. I bet Zev would still stay true. All that talk about not caring weather others consider something right or wrong...

I wonder if we'll ever get to play as one?

Addai,

lol I'm bad, I know. But it's true that until Al lvled up quite a bit, he was constantly getting knocked down, or shouting that he needs help, he's wounded, even if he has health poltices. So I couldn't help myself! LOL I'm sure he'd be alright in bed, especially if you like his lovey-dovey talks. I don't think he'd be my speed, though. Would he ever be into leather and chains, and all that fun kink? Zevran's more the type who will challenge you to try new things and be encouraging, where as with a guy like Al, I'd be afraid he'd be disgusted and embarrassed.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 13 mars 2010 - 08:04 .

[SurelyForth]

He actually does use the word love, just not in english. 'Si mi ammora'... 'Yes, my love' And he starts saying that before you his love, at Adore. True, he never has a face to face 'OMG I love you thiiiiis much' dialogue, but I think that would be cheesy anyhow. "I love you' is a Hallmark card. It's an easy and often times hollow sentiment. Telling the warden he would die for him or her, and that he would storm the black city to be at his or her side, means a whole lot more than 'I love you', especialy since he is pretty insistant on wanting to fight the archdemon with you, and calls you cruel if you leave him behind. Also, your death will absolutely devistate him if he's in love with you. It breaks him. He doesn't even feal enough to want to die. Just goes on living as an empty and fearsom husk of his former self. He invests all of himself in his love. No Hallmark sentiment could ever capture that kind of bond.

Alistair also falls apart if the PC dies and he's not king. He doesn't even have a purpose the way Zev does- he just disappears. Leliana commits suicide. Zevran hasn't cornered the market on being devastated.

Also, if you harden Alistair and make him king, the relationship can feel very satisfying, because it's something he and the PC both want so much that they will make two difficult compromises to stay together. He is also extremely confident in his feelings for the Warden and it doesn't feel childish or sugar-coated at all.

If we're going to base sexual performance on how good a companion is in battle, Leliana wins for me. My party got accosted in Denerim by guards and she was the last one standing and, as it turns out, she was fighting with her bare hands since I had taken her flaming daggers off for a screenshot a few minutes earlier. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 mars 2010 - 08:07 .

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

lol I'm bad, I know. But it's true that until Al lvled up quite a bit, he was constantly getting knocked down, or shouting that he needs help, he's wounded, even if he has health poltices.

Don't understand that at all, Alistair is a fine tank and I have no problem with his tactics (I have him set to take a poultice at <50% like everyone else).  He does benefit from some dex points.

As for kinky etc., who knows... he can be talked into a threesome if hardened.

*ba dump bump* for the double entendre!

[Sabriana]

Sexual performance = battle performance? Oh my. With my PC it goes (more often than not) like this:

Mage falls

PC falls

Tank falls

Zevran cleans up.

I'm ashamed for my PC. She should go and stand in a corner. And poor Morrigan, what does that mean?

Note: the above is entirely tounge in cheek. It's too early on a Saturday for seriousness, 'mkay?

[errant_knight]

Sabriana wrote...

Sexual performance = battle performance? Oh my. With my PC it goes (more often than not) like this:
Mage falls
PC falls
Tank falls
Zevran cleans up.
I'm ashamed for my PC. She should go and stand in a corner. And poor Morrigan, what does that mean?
Note: the above is entirely tounge in cheek. It's too early on a Saturday for seriousness, 'mkay?

My PC usually (but not always) lasts the whole battle with twice as much healing as Alistair. I think it's because those I put 30-40 points into cunning for her that goes to strength and dexterity with him.  And he gets that big constitution bonus....

Oh. You're talking about sex.... Never mind.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 mars 2010 - 08:29 .

[Sabriana]

I don't know what I'm talking about, to be honest. This sexual prowess equals battle performance thing is whirling around in my head, making me laugh.

True, with healing my PC usually stands tall with Alistair and Zevran. I try to keep Morrigan alive, but sometimes she gets pounced upon too quickly.

As for Alistair, my PCs don't romance him fully, but he is always at 100 friendly in the end. I do feel bad about having him marry Anora, and I never know whether letting himself do the sacrifice wouldn't be the happiest ending for him.

However, there are three things that always compel me to recruit Loghain:

If Alistair does the sacrifice, everyone just shrugs it off. It doesn't feel neither good nor right.

Again, if Alistair does the sacrifice, Anora ends up ruling alone. I can't stomach that at all.

I just can't bring myself to let my PCs agree to the ritual. I've tried, but it just feels wrong. She is too predatory, secretive, and cold during the whole thing. Bringing up Zevran only makes me twitch, because that's just too manipuative.

So, Loghain gets to sacrifice himself for his beloved Ferelden. Alistair is still a bit snarky, but there is hope that he will come around eventually. I'll just take D. Gaider's view and run with it: Alistair will eventually regret leaving on the eve of battle, and that in turn, will renew the PC/Alistair friendship. RPing, what could be better.

Edited because Saturday  mornings and correct spelling don't play nicely together.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 mars 2010 - 08:45 .

[EccentricSage]

LOL yes... Al is a good tank once he's leveled up and his dex is improved.



And truly, I do think he's cute and charming... and my favorite PC so far, the one in my icon, would gladly have bedded him, though I don't think a romance would have worked with their personalities.



But Zev is much more his type, and my type, too.



Heh... I was mostly just joking about equating their fighting ability to sex. XD But then, Zev seems like he'd like a good role play. "I have to warn you, I have never succumb to interrogation..."

[Sannox]

EccentricSage wrote...
lol I'm bad, I know. But it's true that until Al lvled up quite a bit, he was constantly getting knocked down, or shouting that he needs help, he's wounded, even if he has health poltices. So I couldn't help myself! LOL I'm sure he'd be alright in bed, especially if you like his lovey-dovey talks. I don't think he'd be my speed, though. Would he ever be into leather and chains, and all that fun kink? Zevran's more the type who will challenge you to try new things and be encouraging, where as with a guy like Al, I'd be afraid he'd be disgusted and embarrassed.

True.   My first character didn't have too much of a problem with Alistair being a virgin (I imagined she was quite experienced), but if his drive had been high enough for her, he'd have overcome any reservations and taken her up on the tent offer earlier on.   Instead, his approval went down when she offerred again.   Then when she finally got him there, he had a minor guilt trip afterwards (the 'struck by lightning' thing).   He didn't seem motivated or lustful enough to overcome his upbringing.  

Whereas Zevran makes it clear from the beginning that he's up for anything you are, and that he'll relish it.   I mentioned in the other thread that I think he's the type of guy who would find out your deepest, darkest fantasy and make it come true, and love it.  His approval goes up with any sexual interest you show in him, or sex itself.  Of course, his vastly greater experience would help too, but it's his attitude that really makes him the more sexually appealing. (I wish that the female PC got the slightly sexier 'interrogation' dialogue that the male PC gets).

I'll be watching their 'performance' in battle.  I hadn't thought of that aspect. 

Modifié par Sannox, 13 mars 2010 - 09:50 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SurelyForth wrote...



Alistair also falls apart if the PC dies and he's not king. He doesn't even have a purpose the way Zev does- he just disappears. Leliana commits suicide. Zevran hasn't cornered the market on being devastated.

Also, if you harden Alistair and make him king, the relationship can feel very satisfying, because it's something he and the PC both want so much that they will make two difficult compromises to stay together. He is also extremely confident in his feelings for the Warden and it doesn't feel childish or sugar-coated at all.

If we're going to base sexual performance on how good a companion is in battle, Leliana wins for me. My party got accosted in Denerim by guards and she was the last one standing and, as it turns out, she was fighting with her bare hands since I had taken her flaming daggers off for a screenshot a few minutes earlier. 

Agreed here. Alistair can fall apart quite heavily. The only reason he doesn't when you die, and he's king, is because he has massive responsibilities and a large support network.

Alistair's romance never felt childish or sugary. Quite the opposite. It felt quite raw and realistic.

Personally, I prefer my men with less "experience". Too much, and they are set in thinking they know how to do something, or what women like. Better to have someone "trainable".

[ejoslin]

cella ragnarokk wrote...

Alistair no doubt! probably because, the one time i tried the zevran romance i scrued it up.....when i sais i love you, to him before entering the the city...he just said..."yeah...i know" so at the en , i hoped he would say anything new...but no! just the same shait he said when he was a friend.....so sine i hadent romansed i Alistair I ended up going with Sten on a ship.......

Well, that is not what he says there when you leave him at the gates as you did, but it doesn't matter really (he says "cruel to the end" and that's AFTER he says, "in truth, for the chance to be by your side I'd storm the dark city itself, never doubt it."). It IS better when you take him WITH you to the archdemon, but he's very sweet when you leave him.  And the lines at the end are different as well (I'm SURE he doesn't say to a friend warden, "You caught me, and now you're stuck with me.  Sad, but we'll manage." -- but really, the friendship lines are different, even if you don't get that one).  Zevran DOES explain what both friendship and love means to him to the Warden.  But yes, the words are not as pretty as the words Alistair uses.

Edit: BOTH romances are deep and sad and have the potential for great tragedy.  And both men are actually portrayed as good lovers -- Isabela wanted to rent Alistair in the summer after all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 mars 2010 - 02:25 .

[Maria13]

EccentricSage wrote...


Addai,

lol I'm bad, I know. But it's true that until Al lvled up quite a bit, he was constantly getting knocked down, or shouting that he needs help, he's wounded, even if he has health poltices. So I couldn't help myself! LOL I'm sure he'd be alright in bed, especially if you like his lovey-dovey talks. I don't think he'd be my speed, though. Would he ever be into leather and chains, and all that fun kink? Zevran's more the type who will challenge you to try new things and be encouraging, where as with a guy like Al, I'd be afraid he'd be disgusted and embarrassed.

Hardened Alistair agrees to the threesome with Isabela and, reading between the lines, he seems to have quite enjoyed it: "Not that being borrowed isn't a fascinating idea, but..."  If your pursuade is high enough he will also agree to you becoming his mistress.  Alistair is in my view an amorous work in progress who would happily be open to many things if taken through them at the right pace which for me is one of his most attractive qualities.

[Maria13]

[/quote]

Agreed here. Alistair can fall apart quite heavily. The only reason he doesn't when you die, and he's king, is because he has massive responsibilities and a large support network.

Alistair's romance never felt childish or sugary. Quite the opposite. It felt quite raw and realistic.

Personally, I prefer my men with less "experience". Too much, and they are set in thinking they know how to do something, or what women like. Better to have someone "trainable".

[/quote]

Yay and hear, hear, to the last point!

[ejoslin]

I think the Zevran romance is deeper for the simple reason that he does not want to fall in love, whereas Alistair does. There's just something about being THAT connected that despite everything he's been taught and believes in, that he falls in love anyway.



I don't take away from the Alistair romance. It's sad and beautiful and tragic in its own way. Poor guy finally has someone who accepts and loves him for who he is, and he's STILL torn from her (in most cases in the first play through -- unless you metagame).

[Herr Uhl]

Maria13 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Agreed here. Alistair can fall apart quite heavily. The only reason he doesn't when you die, and he's king, is because he has massive responsibilities and a large support network.

Alistair's romance never felt childish or sugary. Quite the opposite. It felt quite raw and realistic.

Personally, I prefer my men with less "experience". Too much, and they are set in thinking they know how to do something, or what women like. Better to have someone "trainable".

Yay and hear, hear, to the last point!

As the only man currently present in the thread I must object.

[Maria13]

ejoslin wrote...

I think the Zevran romance is deeper for the simple reason that he does not want to fall in love, whereas Alistair does. There's just something about being THAT connected that despite everything he's been taught and believes in, that he falls in love anyway.

 

Actually, I think I disagree, in the friendliest possible way.  After his last assignment goes so horribly wrong, Zev is looking for one of two things, death, or failing that, love.  He is aware that these are the two things in life that he has yet to fully experience and he is purposely leaving himself open to receive one or the other.

[ejoslin]

Maria13 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the Zevran romance is deeper for the simple reason that he does not want to fall in love, whereas Alistair does. There's just something about being THAT connected that despite everything he's been taught and believes in, that he falls in love anyway.

 

Actually, I think I disagree, in the friendliest possible way.  After his last assignment goes so horribly wrong, Zev is looking for one of two things, death, or failing that, love.  He is aware that these are the two things in life that he has yet to fully experience and he is purposely leaving himself open to receive one or the other.

He is looking for death, I agree with that.  [edit] That and the chance to escape from the Crows. [end edit] I don't see anything that indicates he's looking to fall in love at all, however.  That's really interesting.    

Edit: May I ask what gives you that impression?  Because it IS interesting. This type of thing is completely subjective.  I've just never heard anyone say that before.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 mars 2010 - 02:50 .

[Maria13]

ejoslin wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the Zevran romance is deeper for the simple reason that he does not want to fall in love, whereas Alistair does. There's just something about being THAT connected that despite everything he's been taught and believes in, that he falls in love anyway.

 

Actually, I think I disagree, in the friendliest possible way.  After his last assignment goes so horribly wrong, Zev is looking for one of two things, death, or failing that, love.  He is aware that these are the two things in life that he has yet to fully experience and he is purposely leaving himself open to receive one or the other.

He is looking for death, I agree with that.  [edit] That and the chance to escape from the Crows. [end edit] I don't see anything that indicates he's looking to fall in love at all, however.  That's really interesting.    

Edit: May I ask what gives you that impression?  Because it IS interesting. 

Well, I won't reference Freud about the two most basic impulses. .. But my take on Zevren is that he is an experience **** and a sensualist.  His dialogue is full of references to tastes and smells and tactile stimuli.  He's reached a turning point in his life, it's either "none of the above" death, which both in itself and as a liberation from all the senses might seem interesting and intriguing, or "everything" the thing he's heard that brings it  all together which is sharing stimuli with someone else, love.  He has never gone all the way with love and since death has eluded him,  he needs something else new and novel to anchor him to life and love is it.

[ejoslin]

Maria13 wrote...

Well, I won't reference Freud about the two most basic impulses. .. But my take on Zevren is that he is an experience **** and a sensualist.  His dialogue is full of references to tastes and smells and tactile stimuli.  He's reached a turning point in his life, it's either "none of the above" death, which both in itself and as a liberation from all the senses might seem interesting and intriguing, or "everything" the thing he's heard that brings it  all together which is sharing stimuli with someone else, love.  He has never gone all the way with love and since death has eluded him,  he needs something else new and novel to anchor him to life and love is it.

Yeh, please don't bring Freud into it -- there is much that is very easy to tear apart there and it's a silly debate to have.  I don't agree with your take on it, but I find it interesting.  Now, I do think Zevran WAS falling in love the entire time (that also is subjective, but can be backed up by dialog), but going by the dialogs I only see suggested that he was fighting it completely. He even fights it after falling in love, actually.  It's why some people never get beyond the first offer of the earring.  It's when he finally declares his feelings that he quits fighting it.  

Edit: to stop from embarrassing myself over my poor grasp of my native tongue.

Second edit: That's why I was curious about your take on it -- I thought there may be something I was missing.  Obviously, the way we interpret characters is entirely subjective so there's no right or wrong, but I really don't think there's anything in the dialogs to suggest anything but him fighting falling in love.  I can be convinced I'm wrong always!  But not based on external sources.  The Voice of God did touch on this (I think)  here but the context is off so I'm not quoting it.

But again, if there's anything in the game that suggests he was looking to fall in love, I'd love to read it.  You could even convince me.  Gah, I've changed my mind enough times about this romance.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 mars 2010 - 06:10 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Agreed here. Alistair can fall apart quite heavily. The only reason he doesn't when you die, and he's king, is because he has massive responsibilities and a large support network.

Alistair's romance never felt childish or sugary. Quite the opposite. It felt quite raw and realistic.

Personally, I prefer my men with less "experience". Too much, and they are set in thinking they know how to do something, or what women like. Better to have someone "trainable".

Yay and hear, hear, to the last point!

As the only man currently present in the thread I must object.

Overruled! Men here do not speak unless spoken to!