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[RPGmom28]

I could go into so much detail about Alistair's personality and how he's cute and quirky, funny and lovable, noble yet humble, etc.... but the truth is that Alistair has a sexy bod and nice lips- and Zev is too short and slight for my liking. I like men with broad shoulders and long, strong legs. Why not lay it all out there, ya know?

[Addai]

Re. Alistair needing the PC as much as Zevran does: I was thinking about how Alistair tells you "no one has ever made me feel this way." On its face you could take that to mean that the PC is his first romantic love, but I think it is deeper, i.e. goes back to him saying that he was always inconvenient, a threat to the kingdom, etc. What it would be like for a child to hear that continually, and be forced to pretend to be something he's not? You become a non-person. And as a templar he's a round peg in a square hole, as well. Duncan is a turning point, but the fact that Alistair says that to the PC means that she represents something to him even more important than the role Duncan played. In Zevran's case, Taliesin will say to the Warden "you don't even know who you're with" and Zevran responds "neither do you, Taliesin." In both cases, the PC is the first who sees them as they truly are. Not that this is any great insight, but just something that occurred to me.

As for his virginal upbringing, sure A. is bound to have some shyness due to this and some Chantry programming to overcome, and it will depend on your PC how they take this. My last HNF had gone for the occasional roll in the hay, and it actually shocked her that A. turned her down for the same. As I imagined it, no man had ever cared enough about her that he *didn't* take her up on such a bald offer. One reason A. gives for his hesitation, however, is because he's afraid of not pleasing her. To me that means he's going to be just as willing to do what it takes to please his lover as Zevran is.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 mars 2010 - 07:46 .

[Sabriana]

My PCs never invited Alistair to the tent, they always waited for his request. I mean, it is quite sexy.

Do you mean that he gives disapproval if she tries before he hits a certain level? Interesting, that. I mean, she never invites him (or he, her) after that, because let's face it, my PCs fall for the other male romance option. Does he disapprove even after the 'first' time? Or just if the PC asks him to the tent before he reaches a certain approval trigger?

[ejoslin]

If you're below 71+ and ask Alistair to your tent more than once, he starts disapproving.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

My PCs never invited Alistair to the tent, they always waited for his request. I mean, it is quite sexy.
Do you mean that he gives disapproval if she tries before he hits a certain level? Interesting, that. I mean, she never invites him (or he, her) after that, because let's face it, my PCs fall for the other male romance option. Does he disapprove even after the 'first' time? Or just if the PC asks him to the tent before he reaches a certain approval trigger?

No, he starts disapproving if you ask him again after he has refused once.  I take it to mean he's upset that you're pressuring him to do something he's told you he's not ready to do.  You don't get a disapproval the first time, just an awkward and rather sweet demurral.  (YouTube video here.)

@EccentricSage:  Something else I'd also like to point out is that Zevran's attitude towards sex and his skill, while no doubt part of his innate personality and the Antivan way, is also a product of him having been exploited since childhood.  So, not an entirely happy thing, and it is actually a miracle, given his background, that he is ever able to connect sex and love.  I might even say it's only something possible in the world of fiction.  Zevran has to learn to connect love with sex, and Alistair sex with love.  They're not so different in this respect.  I get that you're saying that your own predilection makes you inclined to Zev's particular brand of cost-benefit ratio, however. 

Modifié par Addai67, 13 mars 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sabriana]

Oh, I see.

And yes, Addai, someone so abused is usually broken beyond repair. They can be contained but never repaired, and even then it is a lot of work. It takes years to even get a moderate result. The spirit is so easily broken, it is heart-wrenching. Especially a child can be so twisted that there is no return. Just look at all the child soldiers in certain countries in our own world. It is simply horrific.

[ejoslin]

The thing about both romances, they both have different endings than expected. Zevran's actually is the one with more potential to be completely committed, which is the last thing you'd expect while going through both romances. And I know that Alistair's romance, if you end up saying "ok, no king" or make yourself a HNF, you can have him faithful for the rest of his life. But usually, you either have Alistair breaking up with the Warden (without metagaming), or keeping her as a mistress, with the understanding he will get married and try to have children with someone else. With Zevran, he may be the last person you expect to go as far as hoping he will become engaged to the warden, but it can happen (and even if you don't get that dialog, he still is just as committed), and he will break up if the warden doesn't feel the same level of commitment.

The romances really are not so different from each other, but they start and end in different places, if that makes sense. You start, almost from the beginning, very deep with Alistair, and it's not until he falls in love that he starts making decisions based on what his most likely future is. And that weighs on him heavily. With Zevran, while it may start shallow (but does NOT have to, don't shoot me Zev fans), it ends up so deep that nothing else matters except the two of them.

They're different people in different circumstances, and so you can't say one romance is better than the other. They ARE different, and both feel very true. And both are beautiful in their own way.

Edit: Adda67, I think part of the point about Zevran is he is so strong that he didn't break completely.  It's that strength that sets him apart.  A less-strong person who had his capacity to feel would be completely, totally broken; their training should weed those people out.  

Second edit: Holy wall of text.  I'm impressed if anyone actually read it  It made MY eyes bleed!

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 mars 2010 - 09:30 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Adda67, I think part of the point about Zevran is he is so strong that he didn't break completely.  It's that strength that sets him apart.  A less-strong person who had his capacity to feel would be completely, totally broken; their training should weed those people out.  

Oh, no question.  What I was responding to was EccentricSage talking about Alistair's inhibitions regarding sex.  Zevran has no inhibitions, but there is a dark side to that- he doesn't have any because he never had a choice.  The inhibitions were exploited and tortured out of him.

[Sabriana]

Oh yes, can you imagine the horrors that can be inflicted upon a child? I've seen children so completely broken it almost shattered me. Looking into the dead eyes of a 12 year old almost drove me to quit my job. She was living and breathing, but her insides were dead. Thank goodness for supporting colleagues.

Perhaps that's why I am so drawn to Zevran. He gives hope that even though horrific abuse is a reality, some make it out. Not completely intact, but not completely broken either.

Hope dies last.

[Addai]

I think it's why you can say that one of Zevran's defining characteristics is compassion. Not something you'd ever expect from him, nor something that those who only superficially encounter the character can see. At the same time, one of Alistair's defining characteristics is strength, and that too is unexpected from a surface impression. I love it that (as you discover via Wynne) that your PC is the only one who sees Zevran's tenderness, and I also love it that my PC is often the only one (including Eamon and Alistair himself) who sees that Alistair needs to be king because he is so strong under all the superficial self-doubt. Like ejoslin said above, it's the last thing you'd expect and that's part of the drama of the romances.

[ejoslin]

Addai67, that is probably why the warden is able to "fix" her/his companions -- because they do see what others don't seem to, or at least they're able to build up trust so that their companions can show them. I never really thought about the strength it takes for Alistair to either give up the woman he loves or to go against everything he believes in to keep her as a mistress -- because he must unite and lead his country during a horrible time.

Zevran's tenderness towards the warden is so far away from what things appear to be on the surface as well, as you say.

There's a lot to the characters. I really enjoy both romances.

Edit: Obviously, I do prefer Zevran's romance, but I would not take anything away (or intentionally add anything to for that matter) the sweetness of Alistair's romance.  Well, after I got over my first playthrough, that is.  I find it amazing how much loyalty both characters bring out in people though.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 mars 2010 - 11:52 .

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's why you can say that one of Zevran's defining characteristics is compassion. Not something you'd ever expect from him, nor something that those who only superficially encounter the character can see. At the same time, one of Alistair's defining characteristics is strength, and that too is unexpected from a surface impression. I love it that (as you discover via Wynne) that your PC is the only one who sees Zevran's tenderness, and I also love it that my PC is often the only one (including Eamon and Alistair himself) who sees that Alistair needs to be king because he is so strong under all the superficial self-doubt. Like ejoslin said above, it's the last thing you'd expect and that's part of the drama of the romances.

I do think this is a good summing up.  Yes, Alistair is strong, even though sometimes he describes himself as a "Weak, weak man"  but you have to be really strong to recognise your own weaknesses and get along with them...

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's why you can say that one of Zevran's defining characteristics is compassion. Not something you'd ever expect from him, nor something that those who only superficially encounter the character can see. At the same time, one of Alistair's defining characteristics is strength, and that too is unexpected from a surface impression. I love it that (as you discover via Wynne) that your PC is the only one who sees Zevran's tenderness, and I also love it that my PC is often the only one (including Eamon and Alistair himself) who sees that Alistair needs to be king because he is so strong under all the superficial self-doubt. Like ejoslin said above, it's the last thing you'd expect and that's part of the drama of the romances.

I do think this is a good summing up.  Yes, Alistair is strong, even though sometimes he describes himself as a "Weak, weak man"  but you have to be really strong to recognise your own weaknesses and get along with them...

I think one of the places this is best illustrated for me is the conversation between Leiliana and And Alistair about Lothering, when she basically says they had to abandon those people for a greater good, and he says that he's fine with being weak enough to let that bother him. To me, that's a kind of strength, for all that he sees it as a weakness.

[Imryss]

Alistair, although I am still miffed he can't marry a female Elf. Human females are so overrated ;p

[BigMamapump]

My little dwarf had 'em both. Why not get your cake and eat it too?

[ejoslin]

BigMamapump wrote...

My little dwarf had 'em both. Why not get your cake and eat it too?

Truthfully?  Because if you finish the game with both at 100 love, you miss the very best part of the Zevran romance.  Where he declares his feelings and possibly you two end up engaged.  Of course, most games I DO have both -- just not at the same time!

[ejoslin]

Imryss wrote...

Alistair, although I am still miffed he can't marry a female Elf. Human females are so overrated ;p

Alistair can marry an elf for sure. Just not if you make him king!

[Bianca808]

Ya flip...i was so bummed you couldnt marry alistair when u make him king...uncool...i actually wanted to cry hahah....but yea Alistair beats Zevran anyday....

[ejoslin]

Oh dear. No, both romances are beautiful. Both end up in very unexpected places. After Zevran falls in love, the only crying there is because of amazement and happiness! Well, perhaps that's a SLIGHT exaggeration . . . Not all people get it or like it. But being engaged at the end of the game and it being the two of you against the world . . . not too shabby! Too bad getting the best ending is not obvious. In fact, for many, getting even the second-best ending is missed.

[MutantSpleen]

Wow I must not have taken quite far enough before the ending. I don't remember getting engaged. I got his ear ring but he never proposed to me.

[ejoslin]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Wow I must not have taken quite far enough before the ending. I don't remember getting engaged. I got his ear ring but he never proposed to me.

Click on the faq in my signature if you want to see how that happens.  

Edit: The romance does NOT end with the offer of the earring (which you can turn down).  A lot of people do miss that!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[AnniLau]

Zevran has definitely grown on me over various playthroughs, but I still <3 Ali best. It's the humor, the voice, and the fact that - despite being a big strapping warrior - he's still kind of nerdy. I love nerdy guys.

[MutantSpleen]

Ok, so this is the way my romance went.  I got dumped by Alistair. Next time at camp, Zevran offers me a "massage". I took up his offer and we went to the tent. (Morrigan's love shack).

He read me the bad poetry.

We slept together several times. Eventually he offered me an earing and I took it. So are you supposed to not take it the first time and have him offer it a second time?

Zevran was sort of out of the blue, I was always friendly with him and talked to him but hadn't really planned on romancing him until Alistair dumped me.  The epilogue though had me and Zevran going together to Amaranthine. Pretty sure he was 100 (Love) with me at the end, no marriage proposal though, but kind of got swept up in the final battle and may have missed it.

[ejoslin]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ok, so this is the way my romance went.  I got dumped by Alistair. Next time at camp, Zevran offers me a "massage". I took up his offer and we went to the tent. (Morrigan's love shack).

He read me the bad poetry.

We slept together several times. Eventually he offered me an earing and I took it. So are you supposed to not take it the first time and have him offer it a second time?

Zevran was sort of out of the blue, I was always friendly with him and talked to him but hadn't really planned on romancing him until Alistair dumped me.  The epilogue though had me and Zevran going together to Amaranthine. Pretty sure he was 100 (Love) with me at the end, no marriage proposal though, but kind of got swept up in the final battle and may have missed it.

WARNING:  HUGE ROMANCE SPOILERS!!!!  MAJOR ONES!

Turn it down.  Or not.  Either way, though it's better if you do turn it down.  But you need to ask him to your tent to finish the romance.  If you want a proposal, you do need to turn down the earring, but you get a beautiful ending even if you don't.

Edit: Keep in mind, this is Zevran we're talking about.  He doesn't get down on one knee and ask for your hand in marriage.  But what he does say is incredibly sweet, and can be taken as a proposal.  But what's really important is you HAVE to ask him to your tent in order to get him to declare his feelings.  And you want to hear that, at least once!

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 04:46 .

[MutantSpleen]

Yeah I don't think I got another chance to go to the tent, it was right before the final battle I got the earring.



Might have to reload and redo the final battle tonight