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[EccentricSage]

To me Zev's romanced US ending is the saddest. Dying is one thing, but living just to become everything you tried to escape from, and never loving again... It's like he's torturing himself and everything that made him who he was is gone. I think to live like that is worse than death. He's suffering until he becomes an empty shell who has lost the most precious thing to him, his self. With the friends US ending, you at least get a sense that he's still who he was, and though he has mixed feelings about becoming leader of the Crows, there is hope, because he is not lost, and his self worth has been reaffirmed.



Granted I think Leliana is a silly girl with the mentality of a lap dog, so I have a hard time sympathizing with her at all. From my perspective her suicide is her last act of melodrama. Of course she would go out with style. Granted, the epilogue didn't actually SAY she kills herself, does it? She may have just run off. With Zev, you KNOW what heppens to him, and you see how empty his life becomes.



Drunken Alistair and Unwilling King Alistair still have hope. His life is only as bad as he makes it. He still has opportunity. So though it's sad, it's still easy to imagine that things can get better for him. If he chooses to feel sorry for himself for the rest of his life, that's kind of his own fault. Drunkard Alistair is still a Grey Warden and can go back to leading the GWs despite having made a fool of himself at the Landsmeet. King Alistair will be loved by his people and could do great things. He will need to mourn and get used to his position, but... well... it's good to be revered warrior king of Ferelden. He'd have to be a fool not to figure that out. Since he's very concerned about duty, I imagine he will figure that out, eventually. Ether way, there's still something to look forward to, and the only person who can get in his way is himself.



So there you have it. No one has to agree, but that's how I view the endings.

[errant_knight]

Heh, well, I see it very differently. These are all ways of showing all kinds of ways of showing a complete loss of hope. The way that's demonstrated isn't as important as the mental state. Each of the three lose their potential and everything that they are and can be. The same thing happens to them, all equally sad. The differences are superficial.

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

@EccentricSage:  Something else I'd also like to point out is that Zevran's attitude towards sex and his skill, while no doubt part of his innate personality and the Antivan way, is also a product of him having been exploited since childhood.  So, not an entirely happy thing, and it is actually a miracle, given his background, that he is ever able to connect sex and love.  I might even say it's only something possible in the world of fiction.  Zevran has to learn to connect love with sex, and Alistair sex with love.  They're not so different in this respect.  I get that you're saying that your own predilection makes you inclined to Zev's particular brand of cost-benefit ratio, however. 

While his traumatic childhood is horrific, I think we also need to remember that being sexualy skilled and uninhibited seems to be a social norm in Antiva.  I doubt he ever had a sence that the sexual side of his existence is so taboo, even though it wasn't his choice to become skilled initialy.  It's a disturbing thought, and wrong for sure, for a child to have taken part in any such things, but to Zevran that seems to be normalised at least.  I think the violence and emotional abuse was more traumatic to him.  That's what his dialogue indicates.

You'd be surprised how many people there are in the world who've been sexualy abused and do move on.  I've known a few people.  Very few people in their lives will probably ever know what happened, and they find ways of working through it and coping.  I think most people only ever 'see' the ones who were broken by it.  It's a horrible thing no matter what, but there's a lot more hope than you might realise, and I think most victims are far stronger than you would expect.

IMO, the worst thing one can do to people who were sexualy abused is treat them like victims in the first place.  To pitty someone is to encourage their feelings of depowerment.  It practicaly continues the abuse, psychologicaly.  Victims are stigmatised and feel ostracised.  This is why most keep secrets.  Because society, in it's efforts to denounce the abuse it's self, will punish the victim unintentionaly.  People will see the person as a victim instead of as a person, will define them by it, and treet them differently for it.  That, in and of it's self, is traumatic, and prevents the victim of abuse from moving on.

What I'm trying to get at, in my rambling way, is that if Zev embraces sexuality and is proud of his skill, there is no reson to dwell on the unhappy aspect of how he came to be skilled.  Showing him that it's ok to love and that he won't be punished for admitting he has feelings is all he needs.  There's no point in stigmatising the sex.  That would be traumatising.  No point in opening old wounds, ether, as he's already become comfortable and confident concerning that part of who he is.  It's better to celebrate the strength of someone like him rather than feel sorry for him.

(On a side note... I don't believe most inhibitions are natural to begin with.  I think the fact society and family inflict us with a sence of shame and inhibition about natural desires in the first place IS traumatic and psychologicaly abusive.  It's simply normalized in societies that have a strong Abramic religious influence.  In pagan and shamanistic cultures, our inhibitions would seem completely insane.)

[Tinnic]

EccentricSage wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@EccentricSage:  Something else I'd also like to point out is that Zevran's attitude towards sex and his skill, while no doubt part of his innate personality and the Antivan way, is also a product of him having been exploited since childhood.  So, not an entirely happy thing, and it is actually a miracle, given his background, that he is ever able to connect sex and love.  I might even say it's only something possible in the world of fiction.  Zevran has to learn to connect love with sex, and Alistair sex with love.  They're not so different in this respect.  I get that you're saying that your own predilection makes you inclined to Zev's particular brand of cost-benefit ratio, however. 

While his traumatic childhood is horrific, I think we also need to remember that being sexualy skilled and uninhibited seems to be a social norm in Antiva.  I doubt he ever had a sence that the sexual side of his existence is so taboo, even though it wasn't his choice to become skilled initialy.  It's a disturbing thought, and wrong for sure, for a child to have taken part in any such things, but to Zevran that seems to be normalised at least.  I think the violence and emotional abuse was more traumatic to him.  That's what his dialogue indicates.

You'd be surprised how many people there are in the world who've been sexualy abused and do move on.  I've known a few people.  Very few people in their lives will probably ever know what happened, and they find ways of working through it and coping.  I think most people only ever 'see' the ones who were broken by it.  It's a horrible thing no matter what, but there's a lot more hope than you might realise, and I think most victims are far stronger than you would expect.

IMO, the worst thing one can do to people who were sexualy abused is treat them like victims in the first place.  To pitty someone is to encourage their feelings of depowerment.  It practicaly continues the abuse, psychologicaly.  Victims are stigmatised and feel ostracised.  This is why most keep secrets.  Because society, in it's efforts to denounce the abuse it's self, will punish the victim unintentionaly.  People will see the person as a victim instead of as a person, will define them by it, and treet them differently for it.  That, in and of it's self, is traumatic, and prevents the victim of abuse from moving on.

What I'm trying to get at, in my rambling way, is that if Zev embraces sexuality and is proud of his skill, there is no reson to dwell on the unhappy aspect of how he came to be skilled.  Showing him that it's ok to love and that he won't be punished for admitting he has feelings is all he needs.  There's no point in stigmatising the sex.  That would be traumatising.  No point in opening old wounds, ether, as he's already become comfortable and confident concerning that part of who he is.  It's better to celebrate the strength of someone like him rather than feel sorry for him.

(On a side note... I don't believe most inhibitions are natural to begin with.  I think the fact society and family inflict us with a sence of shame and inhibition about natural desires in the first place IS traumatic and psychologicaly abusive.  It's simply normalized in societies that have a strong Abramic religious influence.  In pagan and shamanistic cultures, our inhibitions would seem completely insane.)

I do believe that line of Zevran's that captures what you are referring to is when my Warden and him talk about his past, including his "open mindedness", she says that she feels sorry for what he has had to endure. He says something to the effect, "don't worry about the past, its the past and ignore the scars. That's what I do and maybe if we ignore them long enough,  they'll go away." That was around the time when he started getting serious with my Warden and had already made her choose between him and Alistair (and Leliana for some reason >.< I wasn't romancing her! I just wanted her personal quest! But apparently attempting to get her personal quest results in her falling for you *sigh*).

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

What I'm trying to get at, in my rambling way, is that if Zev embraces sexuality and is proud of his skill, there is no reson to dwell on the unhappy aspect of how he came to be skilled.  Showing him that it's ok to love and that he won't be punished for admitting he has feelings is all he needs.  There's no point in stigmatising the sex.  That would be traumatising.  No point in opening old wounds, ether, as he's already become comfortable and confident concerning that part of who he is.  It's better to celebrate the strength of someone like him rather than feel sorry for him.

(On a side note... I don't believe most inhibitions are natural to begin with.  I think the fact society and family inflict us with a sence of shame and inhibition about natural desires in the first place IS traumatic and psychologicaly abusive.  It's simply normalized in societies that have a strong Abramic religious influence.  In pagan and shamanistic cultures, our inhibitions would seem completely insane.)

Ah, but you speak of Alistair's background and limitations as if they were set in stone and ultimately negative.   I understand what you're saying about Zevran and don't disagree with you, but inhibition is not only a negative force.  Self-control is a virtue, and when inhibition is sublimated and directed, it can be quite healing and powerful.  Alistair obviously carries some embarrassment and shame due to his upbringing, but both of them potentially go through a transformation in-game.  Even Zevran withdraws from sex when he's not sure what it should mean anymore.

I've told this story before related to Ali's sexuality, but since he grew up in a monastery it seems appropriate:  In the book The Cloister, the author writes of observing a college-age woman, who was on the plain and homely side, come alive around the monks.   They were the first men who had talked to her as a person, rather than talking to her with an eye to sizing up her ****ability.  Alistair seems to have no lack of appreciation for a pretty girl and no lack of desire (even when he turns you down for the tent he mentions taking a cold bath).  However, sex has a different place in his value system than for a lot of people in Thedas.  This is no failing on his part.  In fact, for a lot of us fangirls, it's part of his attraction.

A lot of it probably comes down to personality and I'm sure that's part of the reason the devs made romance options with different "slants."  Personally, I was floored by Alistair's romance when I first played the game.   It was the last story that I expected to find in a video game.   I've since come to appreciate Zevran's a lot, too.  Hence why I refuse to choose, even if my characters eventually have to. 

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mars 2010 - 04:18 .

[EccentricSage]

Oh, I don't see Al's view on sex as BAD, and I agree self control is important. But IRL if someone has strong moral beliefs about sexuality, they might learn to loosen up and get more comfortable, but they usually still have limits to what they will consider. Which doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to try... but thinking about it seriously, I would never commit myself to someone who isn't already on the same page as me, which is why Alistair's views on sex make him less appealing than Zevran to me. Besides, I don't like to teach... I find that role in bed uncomfortable. XD I just think it would be too awkward with someone like Al.



So Al is great for someone who's like him in that respect, but not the best match for anyone with a perverted mind and adventurous attitude, IMO.



Interestingly, I think Zev actually has a lot more control than one would expect... While he likes to use sex for many things from seduction to bonding to a sort of 'act of kindness', he never really seems to throw himself at people. I really loved that about the character. I've met guys who just throw themselves at everyone and have no control over their own lust, and they just make fools of themselves. They could be totally hot, and their complete lack of self control would make them seem unattractive.

[Addai]

@ES: Agreed. As Zevran says, he is definitely a gentleman.

[Sannox]

Whatever Zevran's past experiences were, he manages to keep his view of sex pure and unsullied. He says that he has always been an amateur, not a professional (he has had sex because he wanted to), and talks about experiencing plenty of joy in his life (and I think sex was one of his main sources of joy).

As for falling in love, I actually think Zevran does that easily as well, despite all he's been taught. He feels enough for the mage after one night together to plead her case to the Crows. And he falls for Rinna. And now this is just my interpretation, but I think he starts falling for the warden right from the first tent time (he says he has been confused since then). I don't believe that he only falls in love after the Taliesin encounter. I think that the Taliesin encounter forces him to think about why he needs to stay, and prompts the earring and eventually talking about it. It's the first time he acknowledges to himself that it might be love, but it's not the first time he's felt it. So it turns out that it's not only easy to get him into bed, but easy for him to fall in love. (Just being nice to him and having sex with him is plenty - no gifts, no quests). It's recognising it and admitting it that's difficult for him, because although his view of sex hasn't been sullied, his view of love has.

I haven't played through the full Alistair romance, so I can't comment on the whole thing, but it seemed to me that he was more difficult to romance both in terms of getting him into bed and getting him to fall in love. I thought he was flirting at the beginning until I played through as a male and found out that he was just being friendly. His view of sex IS sullied, unfortunately, so you don't have that obvious way of connecting with him early on. He also falls in love less easily (from what I have seen. Maybe if I played the whole thing through I would have a different view and it's possible that he falls for the warden much earlier than I thought)

Modifié par Sannox, 16 mars 2010 - 11:06 .

[MutantSpleen]

EccentricSage wrote...


Granted I think Leliana is a silly girl with the mentality of a lap dog, so I have a hard time sympathizing with her at all. From my perspective her suicide is her last act of melodrama. Of course she would go out with style. Granted, the epilogue didn't actually SAY she kills herself, does it? She may have just run off. With Zev, you KNOW what heppens to him, and you see how empty his life becomes.

Leliana is not silly or stupid.  Her love seemed the deepest and most passionate to me honestly.

That out of the way, yes she does kill herself.

Leliana remained in the royal court for a time, mourning.  She poured her heart into a ballad that would eventually become known throughout Thedas. But after one performance, Leliana quietly vanished. Some say the maker came to her in a vision again that night. Smiling, tears in her eyes she told a maid that she would see her love again at last.

[Huojin]

Sannox wrote...
 He feels enough for the mage after one night together to plead her case to the Crows.

I just saw that as naivety mixed with compassion. Doesn't he say that was one of/the first missions he did?

Zevran is superior to Alistair in many ways. I guess Alistair is more "WYSIWYG" and Zevran involves a bit more of an effort on your part to get past the "I'm going to stare off your skirt, hot stuff" junk.  I just find Alistair very irritating and awkward when you try to talk to him, whereas Zevran is actually a little more up front about it all.  Of course, I find Alistair incredibly irritating in general but w/e

EccentricSage wrote...
IMO, the worst thing one can do to
people who were sexualy abused is treat them like victims in the first
place.  To pitty someone is to encourage their feelings of
depowerment.  It practicaly continues the abuse, psychologicaly. 
Victims are stigmatised and feel ostracised...

What
I'm trying to get at, in my rambling way, is that if Zev embraces
sexuality and is proud of his skill, there is no reson to dwell on the
unhappy aspect of how he came to be skilled.  Showing him that it's ok
to love and that he won't be punished for admitting he has feelings is
all he needs.

It also just continues to drag them down - Zevran has obviously dealt with it/gotten past it, to drag it all up again and make it an issue all over again would do more harm than good. It'll make you both miserable.  His problems seem to be more about emotional attachment - he's not supposed to feel these things, and *that* is the issue for him, nothing else.  Yet when he feels it and he talks to you about it, he has a weird moment (haha, his angry 'no sex' face is the best XD) but he gets over it pretty quick, and he's open and honest about it all.  Alistair talks for ages and says nothing.

[nos_astra]

Huojin wrote...
I guess Alistair is more "WYSIWYG" and Zevran involves a bit more of an
effort on your part to get past the "I'm going to stare off your skirt,
hot stuff" junk.

But in the end the roles are reversed. The Zevran romance has an almost guaranteed happy ending while it's harder to not lose Alistair to duty or death.

The Alistair romance appeals to me naturally but even more so I love how it can play out in the end. It can be happy, bittersweet or very tragic.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 mars 2010 - 11:59 .

[Huojin]

klarabella wrote...
But in the end the roles are reversed. The Zevran romance has an almost guaranteed happy ending while it's harder to not lose Alistair to duty or death.

The Alistair romance appeals to me naturally but even more so I love how it can play out in the end. It can be happy, bittersweet or very tragic.

That's what appealed to me at first about the Alistair romance; it had EVERYTHING. You could have romance, sappiness, humour, tragedy... Despite finding him pretty annoying, I pursued it with my first playthrough.

I just find it easier to dump him/kill him/lose him because I hate him so much now.

That, and I just feel horrible for Zevran if you romance him and die; I can never sacrifice myself when I'm with him - it's too horrible to just give him this piece of happiness after everything he tells you, and then knowingly snatch it away in an instant.

Alistair? I can sacfrifice myself (for achievements only, 'cause I'm selfish with my life like that... ); Alistair seems to enjoy a bit of self pity and pity-attention, so his sulk epics will go on for a time and then he'll move onto the next wah-fest and forget about the last.  Alistair will deal with it - whether in a grown up way or not - but Zevran doesn't.

[Sabriana]

I don't even know what WYSIWYG means. Not even google knows.

Yeah in some ways I have to agree with you Klarabella (unless the PC chooses to sacrifice herself). I am so glad that my PCs don't fall for Alistair. Well, they do, up to a point, whether they turn the romance on or not. He is sweet, funny, and sexy, after all, and my lonely PC and him are thrown together right from the beginning, and he and she already went through some terrifying experiences.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana, it means "What you see is what you get." And I find it interesting as well how the romances start in different places, and end in the complete opposite of what you'd imagine (at least, most likely, until you know how the game goes).

Edit: I can't get beyond romancing Zevran. It's just too sweet a romance, really.  He tries so hard to keep that wall up, and tries so hard to convince himself it's less than what it is.  I love how relieved he is when he forces a choice and you choose him -- especially with Alistair -- how he lets out his breath in the middle of that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 12:21 .

[nos_astra]

It's too sweet for my taste. Really, I want to romance him once. I'll see it and then I've seen everything.
I romance Alistair and I can have - let me count - about 6 endings. Woah! That beats sweet for me anytime.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 mars 2010 - 12:30 .

[Sannox]

Huojin wrote...

Sannox wrote...
 He feels enough for the mage after one night together to plead her case to the Crows.

I just saw that as naivety mixed with compassion. Doesn't he say that was one of/the first missions he did?

Yes, it was the second mission, I think.  But I don't imagine it was the norm for even inexperienced Crows to make a case for their mark.   It could have been solely compassion with no romantic feeling, but he does talk about her looks (he was attracted to her) and that they had sex, as if that is relevant.  I think it IS relevant.  The story could have been about other characters that might have inspired compassion - an elderly person, an ill person, a mother, etc.  But in this case, he seems to be saying that it was his feelings towards the woman (sexual attraction) that swayed him.

ETA: I don't think he'd have had a hope of making a case for her - would that really happen.   He would have been in big trouble if he'd let her go and come back saying that she didn't deserve to die - that would not have been the point as far as the Crows were concerned.   Who knows what he was risking by doing that, and what punishment he would get for deliberately failing on his second mission?  I'm sure it would be worse than an accidental fail.   I think it was quite a big deal that he planned to plead for her, although he makes light of it (as is his way). 

Modifié par Sannox, 16 mars 2010 - 12:48 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

It's too sweet for my taste. Really, I want to romance him once. I'll see it and then I've seen everything.
I romance Alistair and I can have - let me count - about 6 endings. Woah! That beats sweet for me anytime.

Well, yes, I suppose there are two complete endings for Zevran, engaged and not-engaged.  Or broken up, there's that, if you don't return his feelings.  So three complete endings.  But yeh, to each their own!

Edit: It was his second mission, and there is no doubt that the mage used sex to manipulate him.  But his reaction to the whole thing makes me doubt it was anything MORE than attraction to her that caused him to act as he did.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[Sabriana]

Well, there is the 'sacrifice' ending, which makes it four.

However, my PC can't be a Queen if she marries Zevran, just the Teyrna of Gwaren. And she also doesn't have to be a 'piece on the side' with Zevran. To him, she is the whole world and then some. He feels no duty other than loving her and protecting her.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Well, there is the 'sacrifice' ending, which makes it four.
However, my PC can't be a Queen if she marries Zevran, just the Teyrna of Gwaren. And she also doesn't have to be a 'piece on the side' with Zevran. To him, she is the whole world and then some. He feels no duty other than loving her and protecting her.

Hmmm, and also, getting married to Alistair but still with him.  So five.  

Edit: I suppose that makes Zevran the "piece on the side."  But he's pretty surprised he's in that role, and doesn't mind at all. (YES, I know that it works when he's romancing a male PC and marries Anora, but I'm just talking the femcentric here).

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, and also, getting married to Alistair
but still with him.  So five.

Alistair US
Alistair executed after the Landsmeet
Alistair leaves
Loghain redeemed + King Alistair + Queen Anora (Loghain alive makes things worse)
King Alistair + Queen Anora + PC break up
King Alistair + Queen Anora + PC mistress
King Alistair + PC dead (with or without Anora as queen)
King Alistair + PC break up
King Alistair + PC mistress
Warden Alistair + PC dead
Warden Alistair + PC happy
King Alistair + PC Queen
(+ PC enforced break-up)

Oh, and of course you can under special circumstances have your bit on the side yourself, even when romancing Alistair but that's tricky. So let me present you the winner with 13 possible outcomes!  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

 Sorry, but I had to take the bait. I know, this kind of comparison is annoying and pointless but I have to admit it gave me no small amount of pleasure. :innocent:

Edit: Formatting and grammar mistakes.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[ejoslin]

What bait? I mean, no one argued that Alistair had more potential endings. We just said that Zevran had more than one ending.

If you don't go to the very end of the game and get the epilogue cards you have, with Zevran

Zevran + Warden engaged
Zevran + Warden not engaged but completely committed anyway
Zevran + Warden together despite upcoming political marriage (engaged to each other or not)
Zevran + Warden broken up because of a political marriage (he understands he's inconvenient)
Zevran + Warden broken up because the warden doesn't share his feelings
Warden does the ultimate sacrifice (not romance related though)

I give you your point, that you can come up with more endings for Alistiar, though some are split a little TOO fine (there's basically no difference between solo King Alistair and King Alistair and Queen Anora and the way that plays out).

But no matter how many endings a romance has, it doesn't make it better or worse. And if you like that aspect of the relationship, you obviously get more mileage from Alistair.

Edit: I guess I'm unusual that while *I* greatly prefer the Zevran romance, I don't think it's any better or worse than the Alistair one.  They're both beautifully done, and very touching and moving.  I think anyone who dismisses either one without actually completing it is missing out on some great stuff.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 01:52 .

[Sabriana]

Oh yes. I've done both to conclusion. I prefer Zevran. To me, it keeps building up, while Alistair's comes to a stop, more or less, and doesn't pick up again until after the Landsmeet is in session.

I also very much dislike the "Something on your mind, dear?" But I read somewhere there is a fix for that. I just don't bother with it because, well, my PCs don't go for him.

Alistair is by no means a hollow, or shallow pixel person. He is very well written, but so is Zevran. And of the two of them, my girls prefer Zevran.

[Jayelet]

A look of Zevran, worth a thousand words of Alistair.

Zevran forever

[ejoslin]

Yep, I love the way the Zevran romance goes. It starts as deep or as shallow as you want it to, but just gets deeper and deeper until nothing else matters but the Warden. But it's a luxury he can afford to have -- loving someone completely. Alistair does not have that luxury, so his love for the warden in most cases is despite his other responsibilities.



"Something you need, my dear," is very deliberate, though. I don't think it needs fixing. He says it lovingly, but he, now that he is in love and wants to be in it for the long haul, is facing some ugly realities about the situation. Then again, you have Zevran earlier in the relationship trying to deny that his feelings are anything more than casual -- he slips sometimes even earlier, which will let a warden who is becoming attached realize there's more to it than just FWB (though you may not ever see those dialogs I suppose). So the struggle about the feelings comes at very different times in the relationships.

[Jayelet]

Let me explain ...

I disagree Ejosli at all.
Alistair ... king has power, his father was able to prop up Loghain.
Waiver of "love" that is weak.
It is easily manipulated, has no character, no personality.
I've traveled the romance of Alistair several times, from start to finish.
I know what I mean.
I can not see the tragic hero that you try to show.
What I see is a coward who would rather die, to accept responsibility.

Zevran has personality, has character and knows what she wants.
What else could you ask for in a person.?

Modifié par Jayelet, 16 mars 2010 - 03:18 .