770 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Huojin wrote...

 You can't quit work just because you don't like someone,

It goes much deeper than that.  Fighting together is a kind of sacred bond, as I see it.  I mean, your NPC companions and you have shed blood together for a year, so you have a kind of bond that transcends the characterization as "work."  (This is why I don't get why some who've romanced Alistair object so strongly to his post-LM dialogue being public... for a year or more the people in that room have been privy every time you took a crap, have heard and most likely seen you having sex, you've eaten out of a common pot... etc.  [/rabbit trail])

The way I think of it is if Riordan tried to conscript Rendon Howe.  Would my HNF have fought with him?  No way, no how.  He would have had an "accident" in camp and damn what anyone else says about duty.  As Alistair sees it, it's not him but you who are betraying the Wardens.  Nevertheless Gaider has said that abandoning the GWs is something Alistair will regret his entire life and can't get over, so there's that. 

Wynne hates him with a passion but she doesn't leave - she made a commitment to you and she gets on with it.

Right, she'll only try to kill you if you pour dragon blood on some ashes. 

Part of my hate is due to the fact that he is so incredibly irritating (to me), but at the heart of it you can't deny that he's a good person, which makes you feel horrible for hating him. It's like punching a puppy in the face even if they bit your leg off first.

I can understand this.  I basically can't even have Wynne or Leliana in my camp anymore because my eyes itch to look at them.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mars 2010 - 05:04 .

[Jayelet]

Carmen_Willow wrote...


I totally agree.  Alistair, particularly Alistair hardened is just the kind of man I would want fo be with for the rest of my life.  This is the guy who would literally  slay a dragon for you....what more can you ask?  On my early playthroughs in this game, I felt very uneasy when Alistair wasn't at my back.  I hated doing quests without him along, because i KNEW he would die trying to protect me.  Zev is fun, for awhile, but  I could never completely trust him.  People who say Alistair is fickle or weak because he can't/won't marry the character doesn't understand the politics of kingship and marriage.  Nobles never married for love; they married for money, land, status and power. No one, absolutely no one would expect him to marry outside his class.  That's why the only character who has a remote chance of marrying him is the Human Noble female.  After all, her family is the next highest rank in the kingdom (Teryn).  Even then, Alistair's councilors would be pushing for a royal marriage with another country to cement an alliance.  In matters sexual, the king's body is not his own.  It belongs to the State; for he must father an heir. 

in real life ... Alistair someone like me would do away swift as the wind.

Alistair friend ok
Rely on the protection of Alistair ... NO thanks.

that does not stop respecting the opinion of each.
As I hope you respect my opinion

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
This is the guy who would literally  slay a dragon for you....what more can you ask?  On my early playthroughs in this game, I felt very uneasy when Alistair wasn't at my back.  I hated doing quests without him along, because i KNEW he would die trying to protect me.  Zev is fun, for awhile, but  I could never completely trust him. 

Oh, Zevran will die for his lover, too, no question.  His speech at the gates is very moving.  The short version is that he tells you he would go to the Black City itself to be by your side.... and he means it completely.

He also fights for you, literally.  His tactics are set to attack whatever is attacking the PC.  This is a melee rogue thing, but for many of us it becomes a character-defining thing.  Even my PCs who don't romance Zevran come to rely on him.  After Zevran has saved your life dozens of times, can you go on thinking he's not trustworthy?  There are other tests, such as taking him along on the Trial of Crows quest line.  The transformation of the assassin who tried to kill you becoming one of your most reliable and loyal party members is not something I ever pass up.

[Huojin]

Addai67 wrote...

The way I think of it is if Riordan tried to conscript Rendon Howe.  Would my HNF have fought with him?  No way, no how.  He would have had an "accident" in camp and damn what anyone else says about duty.  As Alistair sees it, it's not him but you who are betraying the Wardens.  Nevertheless Gaider has said that abandoning the GWs is something Alistair will regret his entire life and can't get over, so there's that.

Howe is different - he gave a direct order to massacre everyone (guards, soldiers, knights, children, guests etc.). Loghain withdrew from a battle (as I see it, for tactical reasons - either because the battle was lost, or because Cailan was - technically albeit unofficially - expendable); he did *not* order his men in to kill innocent people. And yes slavery. Even I can't defend that so don't yell at me XD

Addai67 wrote...
Right, she'll only try to kill you if you pour dragon blood on some ashes. 

rofl, I forgot about that XD   I guess the point there is that you really have no reason to do that other than lulz (and that guy really is funny).  Bringing Loghain along for the ride is more practicality over "what fun! We made Alistair cry!" (although uhhh certain playthroughs that really is the only reason for me >>)

Jayelet wrote...

Alistair friend ok
Rely on the protection of Alistair ... NO thanks.

hahaha yeah, agreed XD

Modifié par Huojin, 16 mars 2010 - 05:14 .

[ejoslin]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I totally agree.  Alistair, particularly Alistair hardened is just the kind of man I would want fo be with for the rest of my life.  This is the guy who would literally  slay a dragon for you....what more can you ask?  On my early playthroughs in this game, I felt very uneasy when Alistair wasn't at my back.  I hated doing quests without him along, because i KNEW he would die trying to protect me.  Zev is fun, for awhile, but  I could never completely trust him.  People who say Alistair is fickle or weak because he can't/won't marry the character doesn't understand the politics of kingship and marriage.  Nobles never married for love; they married for money, land, status and power. No one, absolutely no one would expect him to marry outside his class.  That's why the only character who has a remote chance of marrying him is the Human Noble female.  After all, her family is the next highest rank in the kingdom (Teryn).  Even then, Alistair's councilors would be pushing for a royal marriage with another country to cement an alliance.  In matters sexual, the king's body is not his own.  It belongs to the State; for he must father an heir. 

See, I can tell with what you wrote here, you never finished the Zevran romance.  And that's fine, but you can't really judge the romance without completing it -- and it ends later in the game, and no, it does NOT end with him giving you the earring.  If you think for one second that Zevran wouldn't take that blow for you, well, you missed the dialog where he tells you he wants to be the one who prevents your untimely death (he says it to a friend or lover).  He knows this involves either a grey warden or a grey warden's sidekick dying.

Zevran and the warden do need to learn to trust each other -- it's a big thing, and it's a two way street.  You're silly NOT to trust him if you've romanced him, though.  In fact, if you question him about whether he's still out to kill you after you two go to the tent for the first time, he will point out to you that there are poisons that could be killing you as you speak that he's immune to.  After you two have gotten to know each other, provided it's reasonably positive, there's no reason NOT to trust him.  And you have to earn HIS trust as well.  It's an interesting dynamic for sure.

Any one of your companions would die for you, though, if your approval is high enough.

I think people call Alistair weak for reasons other than what you're stating, though.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 05:18 .

[Lara Denton]

TeenZombie wrote...

HOWEVER . . . I've stopped coming to the Dragon Age forums lately because all of the Alistair bashing gets exhausting.  Not in this thread, necessarily, but in general.  He has plenty of people who like him, but it seems like Alistair fans get written off as shallow or silly.

I can't understand where all the hate is coming from, but I can't stand it so I'm rarely reading or posting. Anyway, to be on topic, I love Alistair. <3

[Addai]

Huojin wrote...

Howe is different - he gave a direct order to massacre everyone (guards, soldiers, knights, children, guests etc.). Loghain withdrew from a battle (as I see it, for tactical reasons - either because the battle was lost, or because Cailan was - technically albeit unofficially - expendable); he did *not* order his men in to kill innocent people. And yes slavery. Even I can't defend that so don't yell at me XD

a) Have you listened to the gossip about Loghain's actions in the Bannorn?

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as expendable, too.  Making him part of your party is asking for the civil war to continue and for you to get a knife in your back.  Metagame we know that Loghain makes a fine GW, but what about your interaction with him in game leads your PC to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal trooper for "the Orlesians" (as he sees the GWs)?

[MutantSpleen]

Addai67 wrote...

  Nevertheless Gaider has said that abandoning the GWs is something Alistair will regret his entire life and can't get over, so there's that.

My mage saved Loghain and let him take the joining. Alistair flipped out, I called him a child but it didn't help. Should be interesting to see how it plays out in the future.

My mage play through is my dark gritty game, which is much more interesting than my dwarf noble. Her ending was damn near perfect, but thats a little boring.

[Carmen_Willow]

What I find really interesting is that in a current playthrough, I am a Dalish elven rogue, and I can barely tolerate Alistair. And I believe the feeling is mutual! But as one who grew up persecuted by humans and ever on guard against their "treachery" I am not attracted to the "enemy." I am happily romancing Zev as a Dalish Elf and wouldn't have it any other way. I am interest to see how this character plays out as she has done things I would not have considered before. It's like writing: Sometimes, the characters you create have minds of their own and take your tale in directions you never dreamed.

[Addai]

MutantSpleen wrote...

My mage saved Loghain and let him take the joining. Alistair flipped out, I called him a child but it didn't help. Should be interesting to see how it plays out in the future.

I doubt you'll see anything of him.  If Loghain is spared, he disappears unless married off to Anora.

[ejoslin]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

What I find really interesting is that in a current playthrough, I am a Dalish elven rogue, and I can barely tolerate Alistair. And I believe the feeling is mutual! But as one who grew up persecuted by humans and ever on guard against their "treachery" I am not attracted to the "enemy." I am happily romancing Zev as a Dalish Elf and wouldn't have it any other way. I am interest to see how this character plays out as she has done things I would not have considered before. It's like writing: Sometimes, the characters you create have minds of their own and take your tale in directions you never dreamed.

Have fun with it.  There is a lot more to the romance than you'd expect, and often people miss the ending.  Part of that is an unfortunate buried dialog that people seem to find that can prevent the romance from turning to "love," (which is too bad though Dialog Tweaks addresses it) and part of it is people don't go down the correct dialog trees to complete it even if they don't accidentally halt it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 mars 2010 - 05:38 .

[MutantSpleen]

Addai67 wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

My mage saved Loghain and let him take the joining. Alistair flipped out, I called him a child but it didn't help. Should be interesting to see how it plays out in the future.

I doubt you'll see anything of him.  If Loghain is spared, he disappears unless married off to Anora.

Yeah I made him marry Anora.

[MutantSpleen]

Oh since I just did the Landsmeet last night where I spared Loghain. If any of you have done this. Does anyone else think Anora gives a more rousing speech than Alistair when attacking Denerim?

[Sannox]

Yes, I thought her speech wasn't bad at all. I don't like her voice, but the speech itself was good. I think it would also have helped that people knew her as their queen, while Alistair was an unknown. (Although I did think he gave a good speech too).

[Carmen_Willow]

Jayelet wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...


I totally agree.  Alistair, particularly Alistair hardened is just the kind of man I would want fo be with for the rest of my life.  This is the guy who would literally  slay a dragon for you....what more can you ask?  On my early playthroughs in this game, I felt very uneasy when Alistair wasn't at my back.  I hated doing quests without him along, because i KNEW he would die trying to protect me.  Zev is fun, for awhile, but  I could never completely trust him.  People who say Alistair is fickle or weak because he can't/won't marry the character doesn't understand the politics of kingship and marriage.  Nobles never married for love; they married for money, land, status and power. No one, absolutely no one would expect him to marry outside his class.  That's why the only character who has a remote chance of marrying him is the Human Noble female.  After all, her family is the next highest rank in the kingdom (Teryn).  Even then, Alistair's councilors would be pushing for a royal marriage with another country to cement an alliance.  In matters sexual, the king's body is not his own.  It belongs to the State; for he must father an heir. 

in real life ... Alistair someone like me would do away swift as the wind.

Alistair friend ok
Rely on the protection of Alistair ... NO thanks.

that does not stop respecting the opinion of each.
As I hope you respect my opinion

Absolutely respect your opinion.  And I do not defend my feelings on this logically.  It was just what I felt while playing the game. I literally felt uneasy if Alistair was not fighting with me in the beginning. And when he left me over the Landsmeet/Loghain thing in another playthrough, I was totally devastated.....

[MutantSpleen]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

What I find really interesting is that in a current playthrough, I am a Dalish elven rogue, and I can barely tolerate Alistair. And I believe the feeling is mutual! But as one who grew up persecuted by humans and ever on guard against their "treachery" I am not attracted to the "enemy." I am happily romancing Zev as a Dalish Elf and wouldn't have it any other way. I am interest to see how this character plays out as she has done things I would not have considered before. It's like writing: Sometimes, the characters you create have minds of their own and take your tale in directions you never dreamed.

Agree. I try to play a little different with each character and make up personality quirks about them that help influence their decisions in the game.  My mage and dwarf noble are worlds apart.

[Huojin]

Addai67 wrote...

a) Have you listened to the gossip about Loghain's actions in the Bannorn?

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as expendable, too.  Making him part of your party is asking for the civil war to continue and for you to get a knife in your back.  Metagame we know that Loghain makes a fine GW, but what about your interaction with him in game leads your PC to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal trooper for "the Orlesians" (as he sees the GWs)?

a) Which actions/gossip? I've got my head stuck in the Gnawed Noble Tavern and can't think of *anything* else.

b)Loghain - as I see it - wants rid of the GWs because he needs a scapegoat to justify his reasons for leaving the king to die. There are too many fundie "blindly-loyal-to-the-crown" people around (like Wynne) who will hate him for leaving the battlefield, who think that risking the lives of a
thousand "normal" men to save the king is acceptable -- Loghain disagrees. In the GWs (I assume he thinks they're pretty much all dead until he hears otherwise from Howe[?]), he has a convenient way to explain why he left. 

The GWs were sent to light the beacon & they were late. This ties into his paranoia about the Orlesians and GW plot.  I'm surprised that there aren't more people worried about the Orlesians in this game, considering they were only driven out 30-ish years previous.  His paranoia is a little OTT but understandable; how does he *really* know you haven't delayed on purpose?

He sees the GW as expendable because he - like most people -  doesn't know why they're needed to end the Blight.  See, to me Eamon is the problem with the civil war. You revived him and encouraged him to keep his obsession with Theirin blood.  Should've killed him and reasoned with the far more rational Teagan.   Recruiting Loghain in no way encourages civil war - the issue about him is totally sorted. He is no longer in a position of power and the matter is simply choosing a monarch - Alistair or Anora.

As for him being a good GW, I see it in his behaviour at the Landsmeet.  He surrenders with grace and shows a great deal of respect for you and what you have done. He does not flail about or fight your decision, be it death or recruitment -- if you kill him, he outright says he trusts you with the future of Ferelden! Anyway, once he becomes a GW, he loses titles and influence and basically becomes your stooge. That was my main reason for wanting to spare him the first time - I thought it'd be humiliating, but he deals with it with such irritating grace it just really isn't a good reason to spare him XD

I also trust Riordan - a man who has been a GW far longer than either I or Alistair - when he says there are "compelling reasons" to have as many as possible.  Riordan has suffered as a result of everything going on - he wouldn't just come out and suggest something like this without a damn good reason. 


Loghain displays a degree of forward-thinking and selflessness (I never
see Loghain's actions as selfish, no matter how stupid/awful I/my PC
might view his actions) are two things that Alistair doesn't display
very often, which are two things that put me off him a lot. There are
so many others, but I've been there already.

But this is all now waaaaaay O/T.



*reiterates support for Zevran romance* XD

Modifié par Huojin, 16 mars 2010 - 06:04 .

[Addai]

Huojin wrote...

a) Which actions/gossip? I've got my head stuck in the Gnawed Noble Tavern and can't think of *anything* else.

Mainly that between the two guys in the Frostback Mountains, just outside Orzammar.  You have to be careful because in the later ones, if you get too close they break off.  They're basically detailing Loghain's brutal campaign to subdue the Bannorn.  All justifiable in his mind, of course, as is his sale of the elves, his alliance with Howe (remember that he knows what Howe did in Highever- he heard it from your PC via Cailan- and approves after the fact if not before), etc. etc.

b)Loghain - as I see it - wants rid of the GWs because he needs a scapegoat to justify his reasons for leaving the king to die. There are too many fundie "blindly-loyal-to-the-crown" people around (like Wynne) who will hate him for leaving the battlefield, who think that risking the lives of a
thousand "normal" men to save the king is acceptable -- Loghain disagrees.

  Not just to save the king- to end the Blight.

See, to me Eamon is the problem with the civil war. You revived him and
encouraged him to keep his obsession with Theirin blood.  Should've
killed him and reasoned with the far more rational Teagan.  And killed
Isolde also because um EW. With Eamon out of the picture, Loghain
(should, logically) have a lot of support. He is a well known, well
respected hero & he has the GWs as scapegoats for his retreat (thus keeping the blame from him).

Not true, the civil war rages in the Bannorn even without Eamon's influence.

It's logical to spare Loghain but kill Eamon?!!  *head spin*

As for him being a good GW, I see it in his behaviour at the Landsmeet.  He surrenders with grace and shows a great deal of respect for you and what you have done. He does not flail about or fight your decision, be it death or recruitment -- if you kill him, he outright says he trusts you with the future of Ferelden!

True, he does die like a man and a soldier.  Not enough to overcome everything else, though.

[Huojin]

Addai67 wrote...

It's logical to spare Loghain but kill Eamon?!!  *head spin*
.

Yes, because he's annoying and stupid and I hate him. Eamon also is redundant and useless. Teagan is far more rational and can take Eamon's place.

lol really though, what? He's creepy; Even when I side with Alistair at the Landsmeet, I never trust Eamon's motives for wanting him on the throne.  Loghain is mental but I always trust him to at least put Ferelden first vs marrying a king to an empress of a country that has enslaved and murdered your friends/family?

Modifié par Huojin, 16 mars 2010 - 06:26 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...
This is the guy who would literally  slay a dragon for you....what more can you ask?  On my early playthroughs in this game, I felt very uneasy when Alistair wasn't at my back.  I hated doing quests without him along, because i KNEW he would die trying to protect me.  Zev is fun, for awhile, but  I could never completely trust him. 

Oh, Zevran will die for his lover, too, no question.  His speech at the gates is very moving.  The short version is that he tells you he would go to the Black City itself to be by your side.... and he means it completely.

He also fights for you, literally.  His tactics are set to attack whatever is attacking the PC.  This is a melee rogue thing, but for many of us it becomes a character-defining thing.  Even my PCs who don't romance Zevran come to rely on him.  After Zevran has saved your life dozens of times, can you go on thinking he's not trustworthy?  There are other tests, such as taking him along on the Trial of Crows quest line.  The transformation of the assassin who tried to kill you becoming one of your most reliable and loyal party members is not something I ever pass up.

Because he tried to kill me in my first playthrough at Denerim, I hardly ever played him because I did not trust him.  It is only lately that I have taken him along on quests and have come to understand how valuable he is. It's just like Sten, I can never quite trust him either because of Haven....

I have recently begun to play with Zev more and am liking him more. 

It's just that with Alistair...he's still so young.  I can see the man that I think he will become....with all the future ahead of him.  Zev is an old soul and a weary one.  Too much of the world too soon.  And he does love murder so.

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
Because he tried to kill me in my first playthrough at Denerim, I hardly ever played him because I did not trust him.  It is only lately that I have taken him along on quests and have come to understand how valuable he is. It's just like Sten, I can never quite trust him either because of Haven....

I have recently begun to play with Zev more and am liking him more. 

It's just that with Alistair...he's still so young.  I can see the man that I think he will become....with all the future ahead of him.  Zev is an old soul and a weary one.  Too much of the world too soon.  And he does love murder so.

I think that happens a lot on first playthroughs where people don't know what to make of Zevran and don't know how to raise his approval.  If you understand that in his ambush he was trying to kill himself and not you, then it also puts context for the 2nd fight as well.  Of course, you'd never know this without having already gotten some of his trust, so it's a catch-22.

I disagree that "Zevran loves murder."  He talks about the act of killing having a certain satisfaction, but he is hardly a wanton killer.  Take him on missions and you might even find him advising you not to kill if you don't have to.  Take for instance, Kolgrim and his followers.  Both Morrigan and Zevran will counsel you to talk to them and try to reason with them.  Here is one case where, ironically, it is the "noble" characters who want to rush in and kill kill stabbity stabbity, all over a jar of ashes.  Zevran will also plead for the mages and the Dalish if your PC tries to go a more bloodthirsty route.  One of the more surprising aspects of his character is that, despite his upbringing, he has a strong compassionate streak.  He even talks about this as a failing.

He is an old soul in some ways to be sure, but in others he comes across as a young buck and someone who loves life and drinks deep of it.  In some ways, he's like a babe newly born now that he has left the Crows.  Still very worldly-wise, but personally vulnerable and trying to find a new way to live.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mars 2010 - 06:25 .

[Huojin]

Addai67 wrote...
 One of the more surprising aspects of his character is that, despite his upbringing, he has a strong compassionate streak.  He even talks about this as a failing.

...
Still very worldly-wise, but personally vulnerable and trying to find a new way to live.

This is exactly why I prefer Zevran to Alistair. I guess it's not Alistair's fault for being too naive, but Zevran has compassion and practicality. Alistair just has sentiment.

[Sannox]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

It's just that with Alistair...he's still so young.  I can see the man that I think he will become....with all the future ahead of him.  Zev is an old soul and a weary one.  Too much of the world too soon.  And he does love murder so.

Yes, I have a feeling that Alistair would be very attractive in a few years time.  I could see somebody romancing him for what he is to become rather than what he is.  Zevran does enjoy killing in certain circumstances, but don't all the companions, in their own way?  Doesn't the player?    I agree that there's not just a difference in their ages but a huge contrast in experience which makes Zevran seem a lot older.

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...
Because he tried to kill me in my first playthrough at Denerim, I hardly ever played him because I did not trust him.  It is only lately that I have taken him along on quests and have come to understand how valuable he is. It's just like Sten, I can never quite trust him either because of Haven....

I have recently begun to play with Zev more and am liking him more. 

It's just that with Alistair...he's still so young.  I can see the man that I think he will become....with all the future ahead of him.  Zev is an old soul and a weary one.  Too much of the world too soon.  And he does love murder so.

I think that happens a lot on first playthroughs where people don't know what to make of Zevran and don't know how to raise his approval.  If you understand that in his ambush he was trying to kill himself and not you, then it also puts context for the 2nd fight as well.  Of course, you'd never know this without having already gotten some of his trust, so it's a catch-22.

I disagree that "Zevran loves murder."  He talks about the act of killing having a certain satisfaction, but he is hardly a wanton killer.  Take him on missions and you might even find him advising you not to kill if you don't have to.  Take for instance, Kolgrim and his followers.  Both Morrigan and Zevran will counsel you to talk to them and try to reason with them.  Here is one case where, ironically, it is the "noble" characters who want to rush in and kill kill stabbity stabbity, all over a jar of ashes.  Zevran will also plead for the mages and the Dalish if your PC tries to go a more bloodthirsty route.  One of the more surprising aspects of his character is that, despite his upbringing, he has a strong compassionate streak.  He even talks about this as a failing.

He is an old soul in some ways to be sure, but in others he comes across as a young buck and someone who loves life and drinks deep of it.  In some ways, he's like a babe newly born now that he has left the Crows.  Still very worldly-wise, but personally vulnerable and trying to find a new way to live.

What I am learning is that I have to start thinking out of the box on my play through and choosing some dialogue that I wouldn't usually go for, just to see how it all turns out....This forum has certainly given me a differnt take on Zev...one that I am eager to explore now.  Great fun. 

[ejoslin]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

What I am learning is that I have to start thinking out of the box on my play through and choosing some dialogue that I wouldn't usually go for, just to see how it all turns out....This forum has certainly given me a differnt take on Zev...one that I am eager to explore now.  Great fun. 

With Zevran, most of his dialog choices have something between "Yay murder" and "You suck you evil assassin."  And you can find out some interesting things about him.  His romance is definitely intense at times.