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[Aynslie]

Freckles04 wrote...

Am I the only one who thought it was a really sweet sentiment? Honestly. Here's a world that's on the brink of destruction, and that rose is a reminder of all the beautiful and good things in it. It represents everything that you're fighting for, every rare and wonderful thing. In my mind, Alistair picks it up as a reminder to himself why he's fighting this fight, not with the plan in mind to give it to the PC later. Then, when his feelings develop for the PC, he gives it to her, and tells her it's not because she's delicate or helpless, but because she's the one bright and lovely thing in his life.

I mean, how can you NOT melt at that? 

It is precisely this sentiment that makes it almost impossible for me to romance Zevran (I have finally done so on my 5th  playthrough).  
Alistair just hooks me early every play through.  I think he is funny, even after 5 play throughs I laugh at his jokes.  He's a dork and I like dorks.  He stands for what he believes in and will disagree with you if he thinks you are wrong,  even if he needs encouragement every once in a while.  I see Alistair  as being the kind of guy who would leave a note on the pillow before going to work because he didn't want to wake you, or bring home flowers just because...constantly reminding you that he loves you.
Zevran is just indifferent most of the time. So what if Zev doesn't yell at you for pouring blood in Andraste's urn, or for choosing to let Jowan do the ritual, he doesn't care either way and doesn't seem to have any opinions of his own, at least in relation to any of your choices anyway (theres only a few instances he speaks up).  I will give it to Zevran that he is passionate about life, at least living life and passionate about "loving".  And in a lot cases a fiery passionate flame is the quickest to sizzle out.  
In my personal experience it is the Sweet and Romantic flowers for no reason guy that has had my heart for the last 4 years.
<3For me it is Alistair hands down.<3   Not that I dislike Zev he's just not MY kind of guy.  But I'm a hopeless romantic and proud of it.:innocent:

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
What I am learning is that I have to start thinking out of the box on my play through and choosing some dialogue that I wouldn't usually go for, just to see how it all turns out....This forum has certainly given me a differnt take on Zev...one that I am eager to explore now.  Great fun. 

Yes!  I'll give you one example.  One dialogue that sometimes puts people off is the one where Zevran says he plans to continue being an assassin.  He then asks, "Honestly, could you see me doing anything else?"  Just for kicks sometime, agree with him that you couldn't see him doing anything else, and see if his reaction doesn't put a different spin on the conversation.

Zevran's romance is not hearts and flowers, but it is so deep and stiring in its own way.  I've found over numerous playthroughs that the "difficult" characters- Zevran, Morrigan and Sten- have only grown on me.  Someone mentioned Sten and Haven...  I now look forward to Haven, because it's a turning point with him.  It took me some 7 playthroughs before I got Sten's "hidden" dialogues.  I now get such a zing when he starts calling me "kadan," precisely because it's something the game just doesn't hand to you (not to mention that it's dead sexy).

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mars 2010 - 10:27 .

[Baboontje]

Yeahh....I seem to get hooked by Alistair every game aswell. I tried to romance Zev with my Elf mage and they were...but...Alistair came by with his funny remarks and I just picked the wrong answer...making him interested in me and then before I knew it he gave me that blasted rose! Who am I to refuse THAT?! So I broke off with Zev and he shrugged it off and Alistair was happy...And I was staring at my screen scratching my head. But in the end I do like em both but I like Alistair a lil better. But my next elves will be Zev-groupies! This I swear!

[Miri1984]

Zevran is a short-arse with a fake tan and a dodgy accent.



Funny, yes. Fun to flirt with, yes. But Alistair..... oh... Alistair...



I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who absolutely love the Fort Drakon capture sequence. I have a save game there...



I married a hopeless romantic. Spent my teenage years in love with suave, smooth talking Zev-types who dumped me for skinnier, stupider women. My husband gave me a single rose on our second date and I never looked back.

[Addai]

Baboontje wrote...

Yeahh....I seem to get hooked by Alistair every game aswell. I tried to romance Zev with my Elf mage and they were...but...Alistair came by with his funny remarks and I just picked the wrong answer...making him interested in me and then before I knew it he gave me that blasted rose! Who am I to refuse THAT?! So I broke off with Zev and he shrugged it off and Alistair was happy...And I was staring at my screen scratching my head. But in the end I do like em both but I like Alistair a lil better. But my next elves will be Zev-groupies! This I swear!

If it helps you any, Zevran is not really shrugging it off.  He's trying to make it seem like it's not a big deal and make you feel better about it, but having studied the character far more than I should for a rational person  (see the ginormous thread devoted to him...), I'm convinced there is no such thing as a casual fling for him with the Warden.  You mean too much to him at that point in his life.  Some VO comments from the toolset also confirm that Zevran tries to deflect emotion in these breakups to make it sound like no big deal, when it is.

I do understand the lure of Alistair, however!  I swear, the VO direction for his Warm greeting said "sexy, sultry, siren voice" while the greeting for when you hit Love says "warm but business-like".  Bait and switch!! 

[EccentricSage]

Wow, learning that Alistair won't try to stop you from massacring the Dalish surprises me. Makes me think a little less of him. He has a sense of honor and duty, but I think Zevran, the assassin of all things, is far more compassionate.



I remember Al had a big problem with me freeing Jowan, too, even though Jowan had in fact been deceived by Loghain and was merely fighting for his life.



So it seems to me that a lot of Alistair's actions are strongly bias based on his upbringing, Where as Zevran's actions turn out to be in spite of his upbringing. This gives me more respect for Zevran, big time. Though I still LIKE Al, he's got his good points. But I find it funny when you come across 'white knight' type RPers who think Al's only flaw is that he doubts himself and that Zevran is a bad bad man and soooo unforgivable. If Al hadn't been conscripted, he would have become a Templar and would imprison or murder mages for a living. That's not exactly soft and fluffy.

[EccentricSage]

Aynslie wrote...


Zevran is just indifferent most of the time. So what if Zev doesn't yell at you for pouring blood in Andraste's urn, or for choosing to let Jowan do the ritual, he doesn't care either way and doesn't seem to have any opinions of his own, at least in relation to any of your choices anyway (theres only a few instances he speaks up).  I will give it to Zevran that he is passionate about life, at least living life and passionate about "loving".  And in a lot cases a fiery passionate flame is the quickest to sizzle out.  
In my personal experience it is the Sweet and Romantic flowers for no reason guy that has had my heart for the last 4 years.
<3For me it is Alistair hands down.<3   Not that I dislike Zev he's just not MY kind of guy.  But I'm a hopeless romantic and proud of it.:innocent:

Zevran is only indiferent when it comes to things that are more symbolic than anything, like the Urn.  To him wether you help the chantry or the cult, the Urn it's self is merely a means to an ends.  Which surprised me, as he actually is religious.  But he seems to see spirituality as something personal and doesn't involve himself in the religious politics.

You'll find Zevran to be someone who speeks out when it realy counts.  Like when you are trying to choose between Harromont and Bhelen, or contemplating what to do with the Anvil of Void.  Even more surprisingly, he'll try to intervene with passionate speeches beseaching you to be mercyfull if you decide that you are going to massacre people or sell elves into slavery.  He becomes very outspoken when it counts most.  However, he also does not engage in petty social politics about what right or wrong. He's not going to force his personal beleifs on you like some other party members.  He gives you respect and only asks of you that you return the favor.

[ejoslin]

Aynslie wrote...

It is precisely this sentiment that makes it almost impossible for me to romance Zevran (I have finally done so on my 5th  playthrough).  
Alistair just hooks me early every play through.  I think he is funny, even after 5 play throughs I laugh at his jokes.  He's a dork and I like dorks.  He stands for what he believes in and will disagree with you if he thinks you are wrong,  even if he needs encouragement every once in a while.  I see Alistair  as being the kind of guy who would leave a note on the pillow before going to work because he didn't want to wake you, or bring home flowers just because...constantly reminding you that he loves you.
Zevran is just indifferent most of the time. So what if Zev doesn't yell at you for pouring blood in Andraste's urn, or for choosing to let Jowan do the ritual, he doesn't care either way and doesn't seem to have any opinions of his own, at least in relation to any of your choices anyway (theres only a few instances he speaks up).  I will give it to Zevran that he is passionate about life, at least living life and passionate about "loving".  And in a lot cases a fiery passionate flame is the quickest to sizzle out.  
In my personal experience it is the Sweet and Romantic flowers for no reason guy that has had my heart for the last 4 years.
<3For me it is Alistair hands down.<3   Not that I dislike Zev he's just not MY kind of guy.  But I'm a hopeless romantic and proud of it.:innocent:

Let me guess . . . you didn't take Zevran with you much.  He talks more than any other of your party members.  And offers his opinions maybe a bit TOO much.  Alistair ALSO doesn't object to defiling the ashes, btw.

I really wonder sometimes if I play a different version of the game than most people.  I see Zevran telling off Harrowmont's second, helping intimidate Berwick, letting people like Anora and Murdock know NOT to trifle with you, pleading for the lives of the helpless, the mages, the dalish, the elven slaves.  He stands up for the warden, no matter what -- he's loyal to a fault.  I also see someone who falls so deeply in love against everything he believes in that it becomes ALL that he is.

It bothers me not that someone who completed the romance really doesn't like it -- it's far grittier than Alistair's romance and definitely not for everyone.  But when I read stuff like this, it does bug me a bit because it does NOT represent the character in game unless you leave him at camp a LOT.

Edit: And as Addai67 says, a lot of the toolset absolutely confirms that he is trying (and often not doing a good job) to make it seem like it's no big deal.  But don't those huge approval drops give you a hint as well?

There are times you will get approval gains for breaking up with Alistair -- you never get that with Zevran.  Does that mean that one cares more than the other? No. But saying Zevran shrugs it off (boom -15, -26,  -46 approval when done NICELY) and Alistair would feel it so much (+1 or +2 approval) is incorrect.  Both care deeply for the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I really wonder sometimes if I play a different version of the game than most people. I see Zevran telling off Harrowmont's second, helping intimidate Berwick, letting people like Anora and Murdock know NOT to trifle with you, pleading for the lives of the helpless, the mages, the dalish, the elven slaves. He stands up for the warden, no matter what -- he's loyal to a fault. I also see someone who falls so deeply in love against everything he believes in that it becomes ALL that he is.

this this this

seriously I have so many screenshots of him piping into conversations its ridiculous for a cold blooded killer he sure doesnt like it when my characters decide to show their homicidal streak at all

even if you convince him to murder the dalish he will still lose approval once you talk to him about them once you complete his quest


also lets not forget about Ruck both his comment to his mother and if you leave the ruck conversation without entering the store

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 17 mars 2010 - 12:20 .

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

I really wonder sometimes if I play a different version of the game than most people.  I see Zevran telling off Harrowmont's second, helping intimidate Berwick, letting people like Anora and Murdock know NOT to trifle with you, pleading for the lives of the helpless, the mages, the dalish, the elven slaves.  He stands up for the warden, no matter what -- he's loyal to a fault.  I also see someone who falls so deeply in love against everything he believes in that it becomes ALL that he is.

I don't think we need to diminish one of the romances to express our personal enjoyment of another. I'm certain that the Zevran romance is every bit as well written, and enjoyable as the Alistair one. While I've never had a PC romance Zevran, he can be undeniably charming. I love the way he says 'You know she's cheating, right?' at the Pearl. Heh.

But part of what you've said here is one of the reasons that I don't really go for the romance. I like it that Alistair has beliefs that come first, and that he'll put ahead of the relationship. Sadly, my PC seems to subvert those beliefs more often than he should really be comfortable with.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 06:49 .

[Ceridraen]

Alistair, because he *is* shy. Zevran had better chemistry with my male rogue, actually - I tried him with a Dalish elf and a dwarf, but I didn't feel terribly connected & I didn't get much past 15 or so on those. Nathaniel would have been a good romantic interest. I couldn't see Alistair with a human girl - I must have tried about 10 times, but I hated her. I didn't WANT them kissing. No idea why. In theory, I should like humans (being the same species) - I'm tall - they're tall. But elves seem gentler, Alistair seems gentle. Nathaniel, otoh, would have been fun for the noble human (male or female, for that matter)

Zevran loses me every time he says 'ridiculously awesome.' He reminds me too much of someone I know... Painful.  However, I should say I really like him as my character's friend. It's almost more touching when it isn't romantic. He IS loyal and good.  And cheerful.  He's also above being pestered or guilted - I'd never call him weak.

Modifié par Ceridraen, 22 mars 2010 - 06:52 .

[Raiil]

 Very much an Alistair girl, although I appreciate Zevran a lot too.

From my PC's perspective, first impressions count for a lot and Alistair makes a good one on her, much like Duncan did but Cailan did not. For obvious reasons, Zevran's is not as good, as he ambushes her and her friends. I like Zevran's character a lot, both as the PC and from a personal standpoint; he undergoes a lot of growth and gaining his trust makes one see him as a fully formed person.
However, the whole 'last Wardens standing' thing makes a good lure. Additionally, since my PC (fem!Amell) took to Duncan really quickly, she hates Loghain almost as much as Alistair does- Duncan freed her from the Circle (and therefore the Chantry). She sided with Alistair very quickly and pretty much stayed there. The fact that ultimately, the two of them have a mission that they must fulfill is sort of a tie-that-binds thing for me. It's friendship turned into love, which to me is much more satisfying. 

Also,  while I don't think Zevran is a bad person, I don't find him to be quite as compassionate as people make him out to be. He tends to disagree with anyone wanting to kill elves in general, but he wants to kill Ruck, who doesn't appear to want to die all that much. I have a soft spot for Ruck, so that annoyed me. I see Zevran as generally pragmatic, although you can get loyalty from him. Alistair stays with you to fulfill a promise to save Ferelden; Zevran stays with you initially for protection. That sort of swung the balance. That, and the fact that Zevran comes off as such a lech when you first meet him that is sort of made me meh.

[seramiran]

Am I remembering incorrectly, don't the Gray Wardens (due to the drinking of tainted blood) not only die sooner but also become infertile?

[seramiran]

Huojin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

a) Have you listened to the gossip about Loghain's actions in the Bannorn?

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as expendable, too.  Making him part of your party is asking for the civil war to continue and for you to get a knife in your back.  Metagame we know that Loghain makes a fine GW, but what about your interaction with him in game leads your PC to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal trooper for "the Orlesians" (as he sees the GWs)?

a) Which actions/gossip? I've got my head stuck in the Gnawed Noble Tavern and can't think of *anything* else.

b)Loghain - as I see it - wants rid of the GWs because he needs a scapegoat to justify his reasons for leaving the king to die. There are too many fundie "blindly-loyal-to-the-crown" people around (like Wynne) who will hate him for leaving the battlefield, who think that risking the lives of a
thousand "normal" men to save the king is acceptable -- Loghain disagrees. In the GWs (I assume he thinks they're pretty much all dead until he hears otherwise from Howe[?]), he has a convenient way to explain why he left. 

The GWs were sent to light the beacon & they were late. This ties into his paranoia about the Orlesians and GW plot.  I'm surprised that there aren't more people worried about the Orlesians in this game, considering they were only driven out 30-ish years previous.  His paranoia is a little OTT but understandable; how does he *really* know you haven't delayed on purpose?

He sees the GW as expendable because he - like most people -  doesn't know why they're needed to end the Blight.  See, to me Eamon is the problem with the civil war. You revived him and encouraged him to keep his obsession with Theirin blood.  Should've killed him and reasoned with the far more rational Teagan.   Recruiting Loghain in no way encourages civil war - the issue about him is totally sorted. He is no longer in a position of power and the matter is simply choosing a monarch - Alistair or Anora.

As for him being a good GW, I see it in his behaviour at the Landsmeet.  He surrenders with grace and shows a great deal of respect for you and what you have done. He does not flail about or fight your decision, be it death or recruitment -- if you kill him, he outright says he trusts you with the future of Ferelden! Anyway, once he becomes a GW, he loses titles and influence and basically becomes your stooge. That was my main reason for wanting to spare him the first time - I thought it'd be humiliating, but he deals with it with such irritating grace it just really isn't a good reason to spare him XD

I also trust Riordan - a man who has been a GW far longer than either I or Alistair - when he says there are "compelling reasons" to have as many as possible.  Riordan has suffered as a result of everything going on - he wouldn't just come out and suggest something like this without a damn good reason. 


Loghain displays a degree of forward-thinking and selflessness (I never
see Loghain's actions as selfish, no matter how stupid/awful I/my PC
might view his actions) are two things that Alistair doesn't display
very often, which are two things that put me off him a lot. There are
so many others, but I've been there already.

But this is all now waaaaaay O/T.



*reiterates support for Zevran romance* XD

Actually Loghain discovered the darkspawn in the tower earlier and told no one about it, just closed the tower away. Something about extra chambers, but nothing about dark spawn over running the tower. [I always wondered if he had worked out a deal with the darkspawn regarding this battle, such as they get Ostagar but stop there and he gets the kingdom.] Something about the vagueness of the gate guard's answers always set warning bells off for me. Loghain KNEW that the beacon couldn't be lit BEFORE the battle; or at least he figured the 2 newbie GWs would fail. It wasn't a matter of the GW being late and failing, but that he set it up that way.

It was tactical, but it was a pre-planned betrayal. It was only the 2 succeeding to light the beacon that made it obvious that it was a betrayal. If they had died, no one would have known. It would have been put it down to a difficult but necessary choice.

Modifié par seramiran, 16 avril 2010 - 06:03 .

[Ramante]

seramiran wrote...

Am I remembering incorrectly, don't the Grey Wardens (due to the drinking of tainted blood) not only die sooner but also become infertile?

You are correct, Alistair tells you about it when he becomes king and you're romancing him.

I really like the Alistair romance, but the Wardens that I'm RPing that they want a kid are ending up with Zevran, just because getting pregnant with him is easier.
1). Zevran is not influenced by the taint
2). Zevran likes sex, which you need to be having a lot since the Warden is practically infertile.

Actually since I discovered the nice parts about Zevrans romance all my Wardens have turned into Zev-lovers, nothing can beat his 'I'm yours.'. And thanks to ejoslin and charsen there are a lot of very nice Zevran related mods.

So I'm going for Zevran, but I don't 'hate' the Alistair romance, Zevran is just better.

[krasnoarmeets]

Some women like the bad boy thing and Zevran is the quintessential bad boy (except for the whole batting for both teams thing, that is), whereas others like the nice guy. Personally, I find Zevran sleazy and he creeps me out. Yes, Zevran has had a hard life, but boo-frickin-hoo. Personally, I think he's a **** for cutting the throat of a woman he was in love with taking the word of his tosser companion over hers. The nice guy in this case, however, at first appearances, does seem to be a spineless worm. You do have the ability to change that though with his 'hardening.' He is romantic and sweet, and not a pushover to sleep with, which is a plus, he is the only guy who will give public displays of affection (it's not even an option with Zevran) with variable amusing responses depending on who your other companions are at the time. His whinyness is a little off-putting at times, but he's had a cloistered upbringing, and he was recruited into the Grey Wardens BEFORE he was sworn in as a Templar, meaning he was never exposed to the hardening influences of overseeing a Harrowing or hunting so called maleficar, plus he says that he is the newest member of the Grey Wardens so hasn't been fighting darkspawn for long either, so it's hardly surprising. Anyway, what was I saying?
My hardass dalish girl chose Zevran because I'd never romanced him before and the whole Dalish versus human thing. I'm actually glad I did, because the Zevran he became after he fell in love with my girl stopped creeping me out.
While my girls' leanings seem to be for the most part towards Alistair, it does depend on the character (my FE arcane warrior went with Leliana, though). Anyway, as someone much earlier said it depends on the character being played.

Ramante wrote...

Actually since I discovered the nice
parts about Zevrans romance all my Wardens have turned into Zev-lovers,
nothing can beat his 'I'm yours.'. And thanks to ejoslin and charsen
there are a lot of very nice Zevran related mods.

So I'm going for Zevran, but I don't 'hate' the Alistair romance, Zevran is just better.

It's funny how the most pschologically battered characters get the most devotional responses. Morrigan says it too.  'I am yours.'  On another debate, Leliana strikes me as flighty, and while Morrigan actually does flee, her love seems more obsessive and intense.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 16 avril 2010 - 09:11 .

[seramiran]

Ramante wrote...

seramiran wrote...

Am I remembering incorrectly, don't the Grey Wardens (due to the drinking of tainted blood) not only die sooner but also become infertile?

You are correct, Alistair tells you about it when he becomes king and you're romancing him.

I really like the Alistair romance, but the Wardens that I'm RPing that they want a kid are ending up with Zevran, just because getting pregnant with him is easier.
1). Zevran is not influenced by the taint
2). Zevran likes sex, which you need to be having a lot since the Warden is practically infertile.

Actually since I discovered the nice parts about Zevrans romance all my Wardens have turned into Zev-lovers, nothing can beat his 'I'm yours.'. And thanks to ejoslin and charsen there are a lot of very nice Zevran related mods.

So I'm going for Zevran, but I don't 'hate' the Alistair romance, Zevran is just better.

Okaaay ,,, so it's 'practically infertile' and not 'completely infertile'? TY for the answer, I'm just trying to get it correct.

I ask because arguments about Alistair becoming king and making his life/romantic choices based on duty, which includes producing royal heirs, fail in a pretty significant way if he's infertile anyhow.

If both of you are practically infertile then it'll have to be a bastard child or adopted child to continue the line. AND if that is something that is generally known, then how can a bastard Gray Warden even get on the throne? AND if you're romancing Zevran and DO get pregnant, then what? The next king/queen will be an Antivan-Elf-Bastard-Heir? Really? Or, gads, if he takes Anora .... her bastard child? Who would she have on the side?

My point is that the situation is basically requiring a remaking of the royal house anyhow, so why not go for broke and do what is right, not what is closest to accepted duty in an ideal (as seen in that oh-so-warped-royal-pov way) but ultimately harmful situation?

And if he REALLY wants to help Ferelden, then he should open citizenship, and establish equity for all, etc., etc. (not that you really can in a monarchy -- a dictatorship by paper & birth)

Yeah, I slipped to the political side. But that was part of the argument being made so it kinda requires choosing a duty befuddled Alistair, or a dedicated Zevran who's set you as his top priority. Apparently that decision holds for Zevran if you are friends or lovers so dedicated seems a good description; whereas Alistair has what he wants, and what he thinks is duty, and tries to work out a compromise that'll look good.

[ejoslin]

I approve of the antivan elf bastard heir theory. A Cousland/Arainai baby would be an amazing leader.

Not that I have much to add to this, but that's my favorite ending by far.

Edit: Add to it being Tyerna of Gwaren, Queenie Cousland is an unstoppable force.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 avril 2010 - 10:00 .

[seramiran]

"Queenie Cousland" I *like* that phrase.

Edit: More of a title really.

Modifié par seramiran, 17 avril 2010 - 12:01 .

[Serissia]

Alistair hands down for me.

[Highdragonslayer]

Sandal can enchant me anytime baby

[FaeTian]

I prefer Alistair because I'm a sucker for the White Knight complex. When he gave my Fem!Warden that rose as a gift I nearly squeed out loud. I think flowers are such romantic, beautiful, and sweet gifts. Especially roses. <3  *is a hopeless romantic*

I love Zevran's romance too, just not as much as I love Alistair's. X3

Modifié par FaeTian, 17 avril 2010 - 12:46 .

[EnchantedEyes1]

Zevran all the way, every day, lol.

I do think Al's romance is sweet and I indulge him until he starts to get too attached. The only ones who do not break it off are my noble wardens as they become Queen Couslands and plan to have their own heirs...

Alistair is the quintissential "knight in shining armor" so I do see the appeal. Zev's "I'm yours" and "Si amora" make me weak in the knees more than anything

[shedevil3001]

alistair, without a doubt, he's much sweeter, he's funny, i romance him every time even when i'm trying not to, cant help it he's just sooooooooo awesome and very well written

[jpdipity]

I love Zevran for his flirtateous and confident pursuit, but ultimately my PCs will choose Alistair for his shy, humorous nature. Zevran has a deep love and true loyalty, but I simply cannot deny Alistair's charm. I think that I likely fall victim much like Loghain fell victim to Maric's charm and did much against his character because of it.



Only the elves have a chance at escaping Alistair's charm. Even then, I have another elf that hates him initially, but subdues to his charms. Much like his father, Alistair has a lust for elves and, like elves before them, they succumb to Theirin charm.



So, all of my PCs have pursued them both, but usually end up with Alistair. I love Zevran, but I cannot deny Alistair.