770 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

*rolls eyes*

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

*rolls eyes*

It was a serious question, though.  It's one of the things I find very unattractive about Alistair.  I was just curious if anyone else felt that way.

[ColaQueen]

@ejoslin I do find it funny and it is a bit of ewwwww moment. I did find his inexperience off putting at first. I mean he his funny and endearing but I do like a man with a bit more balls on him. I think this is why Zevran appeals to be more. The Wynne comments make Alistair seem even more of a teenager or something like he hasn't even finished puberty yet.

[Ryzaki]

Nah I don't really care about Wynne saying he smells. Besides my PCs force him to bathe first.

Then again apparently dog is rank but no one seems to mind being around him so /shrugs

Though personally I prefer the guy I knew the whole time as a romance than someone who is dead in the middle of a road. Maybe if Zev's entrance was less character breaking but it isn't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 février 2011 - 06:31 .

[shatteredstar56]

ejoslin wrote...

I probably am asking to be flamed for this, but... Do the comments Wynne makes about Alistair's personal hygene put anyone else off? Not only the nasty sock thing, but that she wanted both Alistair and the Mabari to sleep in the same area of camp to confine the smell?

*grin* Stinky men are such a turnoff for me!

That made me lol, luckily I was with Zevran at the time.  Wynne might be a little finickier then the average woman though.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
I probably am asking to be flamed for this, but... Do the comments Wynne makes about Alistair's personal hygene put anyone else off? Not only the nasty sock thing, but that she wanted both Alistair and the Mabari to sleep in the same area of camp to confine the smell?

Nope, I thought it extremely fitting for a warrior on the road that he wouldn't smell like flowers.   Plus, I can totally see Wynne exaggerating, her being used to the comfort of the Circle tower.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 février 2011 - 06:56 .

[Sialater]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I probably am asking to be flamed for this, but... Do the comments Wynne makes about Alistair's personal hygene put anyone else off? Not only the nasty sock thing, but that she wanted both Alistair and the Mabari to sleep in the same area of camp to confine the smell?

Nope, I thought it extremely fitting for a warrior on the road that he wouldn't smell like flowers.   Plus, I can totally see Wynne exaggerating, her being used to the comfort of the Circle tower.

Nope, this doesn't bother me.  Spending the day walking around in plate mail is not going to result in a man who smells pretty.  I imagine even the socks, no matter how often they were washed, got pretty bad, pretty quickly.   I doubt even Zevran smelled good at the end of the day.

Wynne being used to the nearly sterile Tower and the Templars who do nothing but stand around in their armor all day, much less sweat in it, wouldn't be used to the ripe smell of sweaty man.

And no, I'm not choosing between them.  My Wardens are split down the middle.

Modifié par Sialater, 10 février 2011 - 07:35 .

[Addai]

Shale also comments on his hygiene which is even funnier. But by the time you're done traipsing Ferelden and covered in darkspawn grime, you all smell the same, including Fade-shines-out-her-bum.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

*rolls eyes*

It was a serious question, though.  It's one of the things I find very unattractive about Alistair.  I was just curious if anyone else felt that way.

Well, I don't.. As other's have said, spending all day, every day in plate is a stinky business, especially when one is at the forefront of every fight, saving everyone's asses, and opportunities to do laundry are likely few and far between.  Men  work up a sweat when they work hard, that's just the way life is. My PC likely smells every bit as vile, since she wears plate, too.  And what with darkspawn all around, long days, and no stops to do laundry and let it dry...seems pretty normal. I'd guess they're all thrilled when they're in a town and can bathe and get their laundry done. As for why Wynne doesn't comment on Sten and Zevran, who knows, maybe non-human men don't sweat. Oghren? He probably smells of worse things. Or maybe Wynne just doesn't care enough about the others to comment.

[frostajulie]

The stink comments never got to me after all their teeth are pretty nasty so its the life and times what really turned me off the Alistair romance was his obvious (from a metagaming perspective) built in racism against anyone not human and his ingrained sense of people in society having their place. Now don't flame me let me try and explain



When you play a female human noble he will marry you. I know it is if your persuade skill is high enough, but he will do it regardless of the two wardens no heir factor. But if you are a elf or a dwarf or a human mage he will dump you publicly if you put him on the spot.



Now if he refused to marry a warden no matter what due to the lack of an hier thing it would all be cool beans, I could respect that. The public dumping is a bit much but seriously an elf should know better than to try it as should a mage in this society. But the thing is he WILL marry a noble human and that really rubs me soo wrong. With the knowledge I have from metagaming it looks as if Alistair doesn't love you enough to defy all odds and everything, he puts his duty first in this instance. He loves his duty and his grey warden honor more than the warden.



Yet from metagaming we clearly know that if you spare a certain character Alistair will toss aside duty and honor in favor of getting drunk in a foreign country. So he also loves his vengeance more than duty and honor and more than his warden. So if we create a hierarchy of love



Alistair loves his vengeance 1st and best.

Then he loves his duty as a Grey warden.

Then he loves the Warden.



He also seems to agree that elves, dwarves and mages are not fit to be his queen yet a human noble with the same taint is so thats racist. Yes I am aware that I am judging his society and his actions with my own biases and standards but I am shaped by my own biases and standards and just because something is the norm for a culture that still doesn't make it right and after several characters and metagaming I realized I didn't really like Alistair because of these flaws. He is still goofy and adorable and I think a good man, but in these 2 aspects of his character hes as repulsive as the idea that Zev is quite happy killing people.



So then Zevran he is your man without reservation, his I am yours gives me chills, his utter devotion is so precious especially when he is so enraged if your character kills the dalish, did it once and boy was he mad and yet he was still totally into my elvish bloodmage. Zevran has a hierarchy of love only the difference between his and Akistars is Alistairs number 3 is Zevrans number 1



1 Warden before all else.



So even though he is a killer, he chose a different life when given the chance, breaking his conditioning. Throughout the game he champions the oppressed and constantly has the PC wardens back meanwhile Alistair rather then breaking his conditioning he embraces it, belittling Morrigan and constantly picking at her because she is an apostate, judging her by the standards of the society that judged him so harshly rather than on her own merits; a judgment Morrigan resents but sees as typical hence her immediate dislike of Alistair.



So while I do like Alistair. Especially IRS and wedding mod Alistair for a cousland I love Zevran and he wins.. He so wins. And while some of my hussies will pop the templars cherry, they always end up with Zev, except Willamina Cousland who wanted to be queen.

[frostajulie]

Also Alistair likes to armchair quarterback and make bad calls and when you follow his advice he gets mad and that is so not fair.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

*rolls eyes*

It was a serious question, though.  It's one of the things I find very unattractive about Alistair.  I was just curious if anyone else felt that way.

Well, I don't.. As other's have said, spending all day, every day in plate is a stinky business, especially when one is at the forefront of every fight, saving everyone's asses, and opportunities to do laundry are likely few and far between.  Men  work up a sweat when they work hard, that's just the way life is. My PC likely smells every bit as vile, since she wears plate, too.  And what with darkspawn all around, long days, and no stops to do laundry and let it dry...seems pretty normal. I'd guess they're all thrilled when they're in a town and can bathe and get their laundry done. As for why Wynne doesn't comment on Sten and Zevran, who knows, maybe non-human men don't sweat. Oghren? He probably smells of worse things. Or maybe Wynne just doesn't care enough about the others to comment.

That's the thing...  Wynne makes of point of saying it's Alistair and the mabari that smell horrible.  She offers to give the Mabari a bath.  So I got the impression that no, not everyone smelled as bad and in fact, they did have access to bathe.

But that is just me

Edit: I feel kind of bad having this irreverent post JUST after Frostajulie's far more serious one!

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2011 - 10:34 .

[LadyDamodred]

Elves, dwarves and mages cannot be his queen.  There's a big difference between that and Alistair deciding they're not good enough for him.  A HNF has the clout (because she's, you know, a noble) to put herself beside him.  If she does not, Alistair breaks up with her anyway.

And...it's not like he's happy about it.  The man looks and sounds likes he tearing his own heart out of his chest, which he is.

Edit for this section^:  It would have been interesting if they'd kept the human commoner origin in, and we could see what happened in that case.

As for Alistair putting vengeance and duty before love, the Wardens do that, too.  Does a Warden who loves Alistair not put duty and the Grey Wardens first when sparing Loghain?  That is, after all, the reasoning that's overwhelmingly used for making that decision.  Why is Alistair at fault for doing the same thing the Wardens do?

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 février 2011 - 10:45 .

[frostajulie]

You know I never thought about it like that, your right Wynne doesn't complain about everyone else just Alistair and the dog. But to be fair she actually likes Alistair enough that she would want to take care of him, she did say she hoped her son was like him. And maybe she had a soft spot for sparkles since they couldn't have pets in the tower.



She is far more interested in your love life than your bathing habits and she doesn't really like Morrigan or Zev, probably doesn't like Sten either. She does like Leiliana so either Leiliana is much more hygienic than Alistair and possibly the warden or Alistair truly is smelly



But they probably all smell bad I mean camping on the road wearing plate mail no toilet paper, regular bathing habits would not be happening. I've smelled hikers, I;ve been a smelly hiker, I know how these smells can happen, it just becomes tolerable after a while. Ugh, now I want a bath.

[ejoslin]

frostajulie wrote...

You know I never thought about it like that, your right Wynne doesn't complain about everyone else just Alistair and the dog. But to be fair she actually likes Alistair enough that she would want to take care of him, she did say she hoped her son was like him. And maybe she had a soft spot for sparkles since they couldn't have pets in the tower.

She is far more interested in your love life than your bathing habits and she doesn't really like Morrigan or Zev, probably doesn't like Sten either. She does like Leiliana so either Leiliana is much more hygienic than Alistair and possibly the warden or Alistair truly is smelly

But they probably all smell bad I mean camping on the road wearing plate mail no toilet paper, regular bathing habits would not be happening. I've smelled hikers, I;ve been a smelly hiker, I know how these smells can happen, it just becomes tolerable after a while. Ugh, now I want a bath.

The "Alistair Stinks!" conversation!  no affection here -- Alistair isn't even the subject.

Wynne: Your dog is filthy. I can smell him fifty yards off.
Dog: <desc>Hurt whine</desc>
Warden: Good. He will fell our enemies with his stench.
Wynne: That may be so, but all the same, I would like your permission to bathe him.
Warden: Can't you just not smell him?
Wynne: No! That's the whole point!
Wynne: <desc>Sighs</desc> Just... make him sleep over on the other side of the camp. With Alistair.
Wynne: With any luck, that will keep all the stench confined to one small area...

[frostajulie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Elves, dwarves and mages cannot be his queen.  There's a big difference between that and Alistair deciding they're not good enough for him.  A HNF has the clout (because she's, you know, a noble) to put herself beside him.  If she does not, Alistair breaks up with her anyway.

And...it's not like he's happy about it.  The man looks and sounds likes he tearing his own heart out of his chest, which he is.

Edit for this section^:  It would have been interesting if they'd kept the human commoner origin in, and we could see what happened in that case.

As for Alistair putting vengeance and duty before love, the Wardens do that, too.  Does a Warden who loves Alistair not put duty and the Grey Wardens first when sparing Loghain?  That is, after all, the reasoning that's overwhelmingly used for making that decision.  Why is Alistair at fault for doign the same thing the Wardens do?

I know.  But the fact that he doesn't fight it but is all for it witrh a Noble if you are pursuesive enough is just blech. And as I said if I wasn't metagaming I wouldn't know he had these flaws.  And not all wardens put duty and vengeance before love, just some of them, but Alistair always does. 

Alistair is at fault because Zev puts the warden first Alistair does not.  I know his intentions are as pure as can be due to the circumstances and who he is and when he lived etc but Zev would not have allowed it, in his words "to be by your side I would storm the gates of the black city itself, never doubt it"

Alistair wouldn't even stand up to the landsmeet for a few seconds, keep in mind we are not comparing wardens and Alistair we are comparing Zev and Alistair and why some of us prefer one over the other and I fully acknowledge that without my metagaming experiences with Alistair over several playthrus relationships and origins I would never have chosen Zev over him, but I do have my knowledge and

Well Zev wins for me.  If its any consolation I liked Alistair best initially. And I do still really like him.  But I like Zev better, I think hes a better man.  A stronger man and a man willing to fight for his woman and their future happiness.

[LadyDamodred]

It sort of seems to me like comments you might hear about a jock coming from a geek.

[frostajulie]

ejoslin wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

You know I never thought about it like that, your right Wynne doesn't complain about everyone else just Alistair and the dog. But to be fair she actually likes Alistair enough that she would want to take care of him, she did say she hoped her son was like him. And maybe she had a soft spot for sparkles since they couldn't have pets in the tower.

She is far more interested in your love life than your bathing habits and she doesn't really like Morrigan or Zev, probably doesn't like Sten either. She does like Leiliana so either Leiliana is much more hygienic than Alistair and possibly the warden or Alistair truly is smelly

But they probably all smell bad I mean camping on the road wearing plate mail no toilet paper, regular bathing habits would not be happening. I've smelled hikers, I;ve been a smelly hiker, I know how these smells can happen, it just becomes tolerable after a while. Ugh, now I want a bath.

The "Alistair Stinks!" conversation!  no affection here -- Alistair isn't even the subject.

Wynne: Your dog is filthy. I can smell him fifty yards off.
Dog: Hurt whine
Warden: Good. He will fell our enemies with his stench.
Wynne: That may be so, but all the same, I would like your permission to bathe him.
Warden: Can't you just not smell him?
Wynne: No! That's the whole point!
Wynne: Sighs Just... make him sleep over on the other side of the camp. With Alistair.
Wynne: With any luck, that will keep all the stench confined to one small area...

Thats why I have never heard that line!  I never choose can't you just not smell him.  My wardens are always delighted that someone else will bathe the dog I feel like Im getting away with something when I let her do it.

[LadyDamodred]

frostajulie wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Elves, dwarves and mages cannot be his queen.  There's a big difference between that and Alistair deciding they're not good enough for him.  A HNF has the clout (because she's, you know, a noble) to put herself beside him.  If she does not, Alistair breaks up with her anyway.

And...it's not like he's happy about it.  The man looks and sounds likes he tearing his own heart out of his chest, which he is.

Edit for this section^:  It would have been interesting if they'd kept the human commoner origin in, and we could see what happened in that case.

As for Alistair putting vengeance and duty before love, the Wardens do that, too.  Does a Warden who loves Alistair not put duty and the Grey Wardens first when sparing Loghain?  That is, after all, the reasoning that's overwhelmingly used for making that decision.  Why is Alistair at fault for doign the same thing the Wardens do?

I know.  But the fact that he doesn't fight it but is all for it witrh a Noble if you are pursuesive enough is just blech. And as I said if I wasn't metagaming I wouldn't know he had these flaws.  And not all wardens put duty and vengeance before love, just some of them, but Alistair always does. 

Alistair is at fault because Zev puts the warden first Alistair does not.  I know his intentions are as pure as can be due to the circumstances and who he is and when he lived etc but Zev would not have allowed it, in his words "to be by your side I would storm the gates of the black city itself, never doubt it"

Alistair wouldn't even stand up to the landsmeet for a few seconds, keep in mind we are not comparing wardens and Alistair we are comparing Zev and Alistair and why some of us prefer one over the other and I fully acknowledge that without my metagaming experiences with Alistair over several playthrus relationships and origins I would never have chosen Zev over him, but I do have my knowledge and

Well Zev wins for me.  If its any consolation I liked Alistair best initially. And I do still really like him.  But I like Zev better, I think hes a better man.  A stronger man and a man willing to fight for his woman and their future happiness.

He doesn't fight it with the HNF because he wants to stay with the woman he loves.  Why would he fight it?  Or do you mean he doesn't fight *for* a non-HNF love?  Yeah, it sucks.  But nobility don't get that luxury.

And Zevran doesn't have anything to do with my question (and yes, I know what the thread is about).  I was just commenting that everyone vilifies Alistair for it, but defends their Warden for the same thing.  I don't get it.

And he would stand up to the Landsmeet for what end?  The Warden put him on the throne. If he fights it when he hasn't even been crowned, he's going to lose.  What purpose does that serve?

I understand what you're saying about Zevran.  But keep in mind that he has the ability and choice to stay with the Warden.  Alistair doesn't, no matter how much he wants to.  That's the tragic thing.  I don't think it makes either one a better man, or a stronger man.  One could easily say it takes more strength to accept what must be than to fight a hopeless and losing battle because you cannot face life without someone.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 février 2011 - 11:08 .

[Morgora]

I like Alistair because he reminds me of my husband (minus the whiney personality).<3

And, the bathing conversation was funny. If memory serves, Wynne had recently joined the party so I'm guessing that she's not used to roughing it due to having spent so much time in the Circle Tower.

Modifié par Morgora, 11 février 2011 - 01:01 .

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Elves, dwarves and mages cannot be his queen.  There's a big difference between that and Alistair deciding they're not good enough for him.  A HNF has the clout (because she's, you know, a noble) to put herself beside him.  If she does not, Alistair breaks up with her anyway.

And...it's not like he's happy about it.  The man looks and sounds likes he tearing his own heart out of his chest, which he is.

Edit for this section^:  It would have been interesting if they'd kept the human commoner origin in, and we could see what happened in that case.

As for Alistair putting vengeance and duty before love, the Wardens do that, too.  Does a Warden who loves Alistair not put duty and the Grey Wardens first when sparing Loghain?  That is, after all, the reasoning that's overwhelmingly used for making that decision.  Why is Alistair at fault for doign the same thing the Wardens do?

I know.  But the fact that he doesn't fight it but is all for it witrh a Noble if you are pursuesive enough is just blech. And as I said if I wasn't metagaming I wouldn't know he had these flaws.  And not all wardens put duty and vengeance before love, just some of them, but Alistair always does. 

Alistair is at fault because Zev puts the warden first Alistair does not.  I know his intentions are as pure as can be due to the circumstances and who he is and when he lived etc but Zev would not have allowed it, in his words "to be by your side I would storm the gates of the black city itself, never doubt it"

Alistair wouldn't even stand up to the landsmeet for a few seconds, keep in mind we are not comparing wardens and Alistair we are comparing Zev and Alistair and why some of us prefer one over the other and I fully acknowledge that without my metagaming experiences with Alistair over several playthrus relationships and origins I would never have chosen Zev over him, but I do have my knowledge and

Well Zev wins for me.  If its any consolation I liked Alistair best initially. And I do still really like him.  But I like Zev better, I think hes a better man.  A stronger man and a man willing to fight for his woman and their future happiness.

He doesn't fight it with the HNF because he wants to stay with the woman he loves.  Why would he fight it?  Or do you mean he doesn't fight *for* a non-HNF love?  Yeah, it sucks.  But nobility don't get that luxury.

And Zevran doesn't have anything to do with my question (and yes, I know what the thread is about).  I was just commenting that everyone vilifies Alistair for it, but defends their Warden for the same thing.  I don't get it.

And he would stand up to the Landsmeet for what end?  The Warden put him on the throne. If he fights it when he hasn't even been crowned, he's going to lose.  What purpose does that serve?

I understand what you're saying about Zevran.  But keep in mind that he has the ability and choice to stay with the Warden.  Alistair doesn't, no matter how much he wants to.  That's the tragic thing.  I don't think it makes either one a better man, or a stronger man.  One could easily say it takes mroe strength to accept what must be than to fight a hopeless and losing battle because you cannot face life without someone.

Zevran does end up, for both a friend and a lover (and he really wants to for a lover), his only chance of freedom.  It's not like there's no sacrifice for him by staying with the warden -- the only way he could really escape is to disappear just after you kill Taliesen.

[Addai]

frostajulie wrote...
Alistair wouldn't even stand up to the landsmeet for a few seconds

And I'm sure you would have enjoyed him standing up to the Landsmeet for the 2 minutes it would take for the LM to toss him back off the throne and confirm Anora.

If you're going to make him king, you have to live with the consequences.  That's your decision.

[LadyDamodred]

What is Zevran giving up? His chance at freedom? Not really. It's not like he's been bound to the Warden with unbreakable chains. He chooses to stay because he wants to stay. Which is pretty awesome, mind you. I'm just saying he has that choice.

*fistbumps Addai*

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 février 2011 - 11:13 .

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

What is Zevran giving up? His chance at freedom? Not really. It's like he's been bound to the Warden with unbreakable chains. He chooses to stay because he wants to stay. Which is pretty awesome, mind you. I'm just saying he has that choice.

*fistbumps Addai*

You misunderstand.  If he left at that point (when he asks to leave if not in a romance), THAT is when he can have freedom.  If he took off immediately after Taliesen was killed, as he says, the Crows will assume that Zevran is dead.  That's his one shot at freedom.  Staying with the warden means he cannot have freedom.  Yet...  he asks to stay for a lover, and can be talked into staying for a friend.  It's a huge price, though.

[frostajulie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Elves, dwarves and mages cannot be his queen.  There's a big difference between that and Alistair deciding they're not good enough for him.  A HNF has the clout (because she's, you know, a noble) to put herself beside him.  If she does not, Alistair breaks up with her anyway.

And...it's not like he's happy about it.  The man looks and sounds likes he tearing his own heart out of his chest, which he is.

Edit for this section^:  It would have been interesting if they'd kept the human commoner origin in, and we could see what happened in that case.

As for Alistair putting vengeance and duty before love, the Wardens do that, too.  Does a Warden who loves Alistair not put duty and the Grey Wardens first when sparing Loghain?  That is, after all, the reasoning that's overwhelmingly used for making that decision.  Why is Alistair at fault for doign the same thing the Wardens do?

I know.  But the fact that he doesn't fight it but is all for it witrh a Noble if you are pursuesive enough is just blech. And as I said if I wasn't metagaming I wouldn't know he had these flaws.  And not all wardens put duty and vengeance before love, just some of them, but Alistair always does. 

Alistair is at fault because Zev puts the warden first Alistair does not.  I know his intentions are as pure as can be due to the circumstances and who he is and when he lived etc but Zev would not have allowed it, in his words "to be by your side I would storm the gates of the black city itself, never doubt it"

Alistair wouldn't even stand up to the landsmeet for a few seconds, keep in mind we are not comparing wardens and Alistair we are comparing Zev and Alistair and why some of us prefer one over the other and I fully acknowledge that without my metagaming experiences with Alistair over several playthrus relationships and origins I would never have chosen Zev over him, but I do have my knowledge and

Well Zev wins for me.  If its any consolation I liked Alistair best initially. And I do still really like him.  But I like Zev better, I think hes a better man.  A stronger man and a man willing to fight for his woman and their future happiness.

He doesn't fight it with the HNF because he wants to stay with the woman he loves.  Why would he fight it?  Or do you mean he doesn't fight *for* a non-HNF love?  Yeah, it sucks.  But nobility don't get that luxury.

And Zevran doesn't have anything to do with my question (and yes, I know what the thread is about).  I was just commenting that everyone vilifies Alistair for it, but defends their Warden for the same thing.  I don't get it.

And he would stand up to the Landsmeet for what end?  The Warden put him on the throne. If he fights it when he hasn't even been crowned, he's going to lose.  What purpose does that serve?

I understand what you're saying about Zevran.  But keep in mind that he has the ability and choice to stay with the Warden.  Alistair doesn't, no matter how much he wants to.  That's the tragic thing.  I don't think it makes either one a better man, or a stronger man.  One could easily say it takes more strength to accept what must be than to fight a hopeless and losing battle because you cannot face life without someone.

Alistair doesn't have the choice but what bites is he didn't even try and then, metagaming you know that he will also abandon his love if she comes between him and vengeance. So she is 3rd on his list of whats most imporrtant.

With Zev the warden is 1st.

As far as villefying Alistaior with one hand and praising my warden with the next I can't speak for everyone else but as for me, my duty wardens make me a hypocrite, but my poor mages and city elf  who chose alistair for the tragedy (again me metagaming) they put Alistair first in everything.  He should have tried to go against tradition, at least long enough to get shot down.  He didn't and so my personal feelings for him changed, me as the player, I can't respect anyone who would cave so quickly and easily to racism or social prejudice.  I mean seriously I will braver the dark city vs. I won't go against unfair social traditions for you.

Zev wins
And again I am unfairly judging both with my own biases and prejudices so don't mind me.