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[LadyDamodred]

*shrugs* I suppose we see it differently. I don't think Zevran is so unresourceful as to have that be his only shot at freedom forever and ever. And as we see at the end of the game and in ending slides, it's not even true. He still expects the Crows to come, and will even seek them out.



Right, he didn't try and for the reasons I said. If you're going to meta game (which I don't do), then metagame completely. You know what Alistair's going to do when you make certain choices, so what he does is your fault for choosing them.

[frostajulie]

Now we are confusing me the player with my warden PCs. It is absolutely my fault the player for putting my PC's in the situation they find themselves in but its not their fault, they are the innocent victims of Alistairs biggotries and the social norms of the society they live in, they dared to believe that Alistair was better than he was and they had those illusions shattered nicely. My Mages US was one of the most emotionally engaging games I have ever played in my life!



But as A love interest I still choose Zev for my PC's because Me the player likes him more because he breaks his conditioning.



I think I lost you about Zev I didn't get this reference



"I don't think Zevran is so unresourceful as to have that be his only shot at freedom forever and ever. And as we see at the end of the game and in ending slides, it's not even true. He still expects the Crows to come, and will even seek them out."



I don't think I implyed I thought this waqs Zevs only sdhot at freedom, I think I only said when in love the warden is his number 1 yes he still expects the crows to come but in spite of that he stays with the warden. Eventually he does take the fight to the crows and together they face them down.

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*shrugs* I suppose we see it differently. I don't think Zevran is so unresourceful as to have that be his only shot at freedom forever and ever. And as we see at the end of the game and in ending slides, it's not even true. He still expects the Crows to come, and will even seek them out.

Right, he didn't try and for the reasons I said. If you're going to meta game (which I don't do), then metagame completely. You know what Alistair's going to do when you make certain choices, so what he does is your fault for choosing them.

That is EXACTLY my point.  If he LEFT after the encounter with Taliesen, the crows will think he betrayed the warden and got killed.  If he stays, the crows will know that he's still alive.  If he stays, the crows (if you do the US) DO come after him, and while he takes them over, he is never free from them.

See, it's the staying, the wanting to stay for his lover, that ends his shot at freedom.  If he stays, they come after him again because they know he's alive.  It's only if he leaves at that one time that he is off their radar as they will think he's dead.

Edit: I'm saying the opposite of what you think I am.  I dont' think him staying with the warden gives him freedom -- I think the absolute opposite.  He gives up (and wants to give up) that shot at real freedom to be with the person he loves.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[LadyDamodred]

I was responding to Ejo with that.



But...Alistair's not a bigot. He loves the Warden regardless of race or class. The same thing withh happen to the HNF unless she takes the one step open to her and names herself queen. Blame society and the Landsmeet if you must, but it's hardly fair to blame the man who loves you and has really no choice.

[LadyDamodred]

Right.... But my point is he can still leave at any time. Are we perhaps not quite talking about the same thing? I was contrasting it that whatever the consequences are, Zevran still has a realistaic choice while Alistair does not.

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Right.... But my point is he can still leave at any time. Are we perhaps not quite talking about the same thing? I was contrasting it that whatever the consequences are, Zevran still has a realistaic choice while Alistair does not.

He won't have the same freedom -- he will be hunted if they know he's alive.  That was the one chance he had of living without looking over his shoulder, waiting for the Crows to come after him.  And they do come after him.  That he can actually win is probably not something he expected -- and it certainly wasn't what he wanted.  And winning did not give him his freedom.

Edit: I'm not saying that what Zevran does is more noble, just that his staying wtih the warden does come at a huge personal sacrifice for him.  One that he is glad to do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2011 - 11:41 .

[LadyDamodred]

We are definitely not talking about the same thing. I am saying he has the freedom to choose, which he does. I think you're using freedom to mean free of any harm, threat or danger from the Crows.

Edit:  And he does have freedom.  Precarious freedom, perhaps, but freedom nonetheless.  He is not longer a slave to the crows.  It's kind of like apostates.  They have freedom, but they're always hunted by the templars.  They still consider it freedom.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[Verly]

This is coming from a Zev fan (but I like Ali's romance too) you do not HAVE to make Ali King. If you don't make him king, your human, mage, elf, or dwarf can stay with him always. You as the character made him King...and in most cases he is NOT happy about it. Of course in most of my games I have him marry Anora because my character doesn't have any romantic feelings for him and is choosing what she thinks is best for ferelden. (I also do not save Logaine...I will have to at least once so that I can get the achievement)



I don't LIKE that he will dump a mage/elf/dwarf if you make him king, but it is just the way the world of thedas is. heck, even the real world has worked like this. I don't like that the *reason* he gives to a dwarf/elf/mage is the baby making one, but I don't fault him for understanding how nobility works.



(and yes, I had this happen to my poor city elf on my second game) I cried for I don't know how long. lol but I was actually more mad at the review that I had read that gave me false information. First, it said the romantic companions were available to all races and genders and it had also said that the origin you play doesn't change any of the major decisions or how people would treat you as a grey warden. (hmmmm....it was wrong on many, many accounts)



as for OT, I love Zev. he's my favorite romance as well as my favorite companion. even those first games when I romanced Ali, I though Zev was sooo funny. I have always been a person that would laugh at inappropriate jokes and I like people in general who might have had a hard life, but don't take it out on everyone they meet.



I'll admit in "real life" I would choose someone like Ali. For the game though, Zev all the way.

[frostajulie]

I totally agree its not fair. But I blame him for not bucking society and tradition. The warden pcs blame him for not loving them enough.

I usually do see things differently than others. Its a curse really.

I still think if in the one case he will accept a human noble but in all other cases he wont marry his love interest or at least contest the landsmeet just long enough to get shot down then he is at the very least subconsciously and unknowingly a bigot to a certain degree because he did have a choice to speak up. To speak out. And his love ended without a bit of protest from him.

Verly you are completely right but I have played the game so many times and so many ways that I have seen all sides of Alistairs personality and When picking the love interest I prefer I can't separate my own real life feelings from the isolated playthru of my character which is why I prefer Zev.  Unless I am in the mood for tragedy in which case its Ali all the way.  I know he doesn't have to be king but I really think he would be an awesome king. And metagaming experience agrees with me.

Modifié par frostajulie, 10 février 2011 - 11:49 .

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

We are definitely not talking about the same thing. I am saying he has the freedom to choose, which he does. I think you're using freedom to mean free of any harm, threat or danger from the Crows.

I think you're underestimating what he is willing to sacrifice.  While Alistair doesn't choose to be king (well, actually he does choose it quite often -- if he's the one who kills Loghain and is not engaged to Anora and not in love with a HNF, he chooses this), I suppose you could say that zevran doesn't choose to be a crow.

When I say he's making a huge sacrifice, he IS.  It may be a different kind of sacrifice, he basically is trading his freedom for the warden.  And yes, that is freedom from being hunted, because they WILL come after him if they know he's alive.

I get that you're saying Alistair didn't have a choice -- he couldn't stand up to the landsmeet.  I wonder what would have happened if Alistair said, "Now, that's an idea," and Eamon stepped in and said, "No, Alistair."  But I also dont' think it would be possible for Alistair to marry an elf or dwarf or mage -- I think what is being argued is that Alistair uses the lack of fertility as a reason, but with a HNF, he is willing to marry her (in love or not).

But since this is not what I'm arguing, I could have it wrong.

Edit: I wonder, though; when you have Alistair accepting the crown, then turning around and dumping the elf/dwarf/mage, it's a different thing than if the warden makes him king.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2011 - 11:51 .

[LadyDamodred]

I'm not underestimating what he's willing to sacrifice. I just don't see it as him giving up his only shot at freedom. I think we just differ on how we see it.

[frostajulie]

ejo thats part of what I am arguing and I only argue to express my preference and why, not because one is better than the other end of story, I hope that is understood.



My opinion about Alistair is colored by multiple playthrus, no one thing by itself said hey I don't like that guy as much as I like Zev. I mean face it Alistair is a white knight in a grey world, hes swoonable. Zevs a bit of a dikc after you first bed him. But after playing and choosing different endings and hearing the way Alistair talked to Morrigan etc all that together put Zev over the top for me and left Ali a distant 2nd.



Alistair can't buck his conditioning, he embraced it, gave in whatever, Zev broke his.



For Alistair to win he would have had to agree when a nonnoble loveinterest suggested she be his queen and then of course he would get shot down but my real life respect for the character would remain intact.



Alistair would also not leave the grey wardens when a certain someone is spared, he would stop loving the love interest but still put his duty first.



Or he would leave the grey wardens but still love the love interest and so not abandon her at the final fight or at least show up at the funeral.



And lastly He woiuld have to be nice to Morrigan before he learned she was such a bctch

Its okay to snark on her afterward but he was just mean to her, still a product of his social conditioning.

[LadyDamodred]

So he has to do the impossible to win? *throws up hands* Go get the "Anyone can marry Alistair" mod and he does. Therefore, he wins. Essentially, you're blaming him for something beyond his control and for non-rp reasons. There is no way to debate this.

Edit:  I realize this mayhave been a touchy b!tchy.  Sorry.  Was struggling with some work when I wrote it.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 11 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[frostajulie]

its cool.

Me whining

I don't want to mod him I want him to do it on his ooooown.

And I don't expect him to marry a non noble love interest I just want him top speak up and say something like

"Yes thats a great idea"

then the landsmeet is all eww no way no elves for queens or mages or dwarves.

then Alistair would turn to his LI and say "Listen babe, for the good of the country to end this blight I gotta let you go but at least I TRIED" and my whimpering mage/elf/dwarf would sadly let him go knowing that he did at least try.

and then I the player could still respect the acharacter because he did try to break his conditioning.

Modifié par frostajulie, 11 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[errant_knight]

frostajulie wrote...

its cool.

Me whining

I don't want to mod him I want him to do it on his ooooown.

And I don't expect him to marry a non noble love interest I just want him top speak up and say something like

"Yes thats a great idea"

then the landsmeet is all eww no way no elves for queens or mages or dwarves.

then Alistair would turn to his LI and say "Listen babe, for the good of the country to end this blight I gotta let you go but at least I TRIED" and my whimpering mage/elf/dwarf would sadly let him go knowing that he did at least try.

and then I the player could still respect the acharacter because he did try to break his conditioning.

Why would he do that, risking the loss the throne and perhaps his life? Especially since you convinced him that it was really important for him to become king-- and he KNOWS it's impossible. And when he believes that this is the only way to ensure that the blight is fought properly. That would be a very bad idea from Alistair's point of view.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2011 - 12:50 .

[ejoslin]

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

[Verly]

I'd have to agree with errant_knight here. for Alistair to do that...it would mean that he really was not intelligent. know morrigan picks on him about his smarts, but he is NOT an idiot.
The only way he would do something like that is if he was too dumb to know that it was not possible. The man was raised to know he wasn't "good" enough because he was the bastard son, he most definitely knows that someone that has no noble blood in their body, or is not even human would have absolutely no chance of being accepted as his bride.

could you imagine the response that would get of the people that already have bad things to say about Alistair's character?


Edit: but for the character being dumped....oh it's so crushing.....and he does it in public no less. poor thing.

I forgot about the fact that if he does the dual with Logain he makes himself king..... Like I said, I don't romance him that often and expecially if I'm going to make him king.

Modifié par Verly, 11 février 2011 - 01:00 .

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

I don't see it that way. For Alistair to do that, the PC has to have convinced him that he should be king. And that's the only way he can do it. She put them in that position. I'm actually going to do a playthrough just to see that, because it's so awesome that he's come that far.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2011 - 01:04 .

[erilben]

ejoslin wrote...

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

it just shows you how "lazy" Bioware is. He still starts the conversation with "I'm not going to question why you made me king"

[Thiefy]

you know its kinda weird to see a topic you posted in over a year ago....



that and i remembered exactly what i said...

[Addai]

frostajulie wrote...

its cool.

Me whining

I don't want to mod him I want him to do it on his ooooown.

And I don't expect him to marry a non noble love interest I just want him top speak up and say something like

"Yes thats a great idea"

then the landsmeet is all eww no way no elves for queens or mages or dwarves.

then Alistair would turn to his LI and say "Listen babe, for the good of the country to end this blight I gotta let you go but at least I TRIED" and my whimpering mage/elf/dwarf would sadly let him go knowing that he did at least try.

and then I the player could still respect the acharacter because he did try to break his conditioning.

Turn it on its head and think of it this way- your Warden fell in love with a guy for whom duty is very important.  You knew that about him.  And somewhere along the line you found out he was a prince and was going to be put forward as the next king.  If your Warden didn't accept those things about him and love him for them, then she was the one who was either deluded or selfish.  Or you were at least as culpable as he was for continuing the relationship despite knowing that it might have to end if he became king.

[Addai]

erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

it just shows you how "lazy" Bioware is. He still starts the conversation with "I'm not going to question why you made me king"

Yeah it's a little muddled.  But in any case, Alistair feels like he has to accept the kingship to make sure the Blight ends.  So he does in some cases put duty before love, but like I said up above, if the Warden can't accept that about him then she either didn't really know him or was fooling herself.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

I don't see it that way. For Alistair to do that, the PC has to have convinced him that he should be king. And that's the only way he can do it. She put them in that position. I'm actually going to do a playthrough just to see that, because it's so awesome that he's come that far.

All Alistair has to be is hardened and land the killing blow to Loghain.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but it does feel different, at least to me, if he's the one who chooses to be king.

Then again, what do I know -- I've only had one romance with him last to the landsmeet.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

but when hardened Alistair accepts the throne without the warden's input, then turns around and dumps her, it does have a different feel to it I think.

I don't see it that way. For Alistair to do that, the PC has to have convinced him that he should be king. And that's the only way he can do it. She put them in that position. I'm actually going to do a playthrough just to see that, because it's so awesome that he's come that far.

All Alistair has to be is hardened and land the killing blow to Loghain.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but it does feel different, at least to me, if he's the one who chooses to be king.

Then again, what do I know -- I've only had one romance with him last to the landsmeet.

Well, Alistair is always hardened, and Alistair always lands the killing blow, and yet has never just up and made himself king. I knew he did that with male wardens, and with females not in a romance, but I thought all females in a romance reverted to the PC choosing and having the option to try and name herself queen. My elven playthroughs haven't progressed that far, though. Personally, I wish there was a way to skip the unhardened dialogue that Alistair goes back to for parts of the decision process. They should have had hardened and unhardened versions of it if they wanted to make the marriage thing part of the Landsmeet. I'd really rather that he just made himself king after killing Loghain every time.

[Shinobu]

@frostajulie Come on over to the "Do you hold what the NPCs don't do/say against them" thread! This is a topic I find very interesting.

I agree with several things you said. My CE PC is an Alistair fan all the way, even after being through all potential outcomes with him (riding off into the sunset being the canon playthrough). I, as a player, am still very fond of him but do find some of the things he does disturbing. Most of it  I try to chalk up to the writers trying to make different outcomes (Drunkistair) or recycling dialogue ("You have a dysfunctional uterus"), but think they could have done some things better.

I would have preferred it if Alistair had straight up said: "I have to end this because you're a non-HNF" instead of recycling the broken uterus dialogue from the Cousland origin. He does sort of do this if the non-HNF Warden chooses the "I will rule beside him" option. Same outcome (breakup) but at least he's honest about it.

I would also have preferred that he not give mixed messages priot to the Landsmeet. Suddenly hardened Alistair starts spouting stuff like "Anora is not an option." Uhh, dude, that means you want to be king, then? When it comes time for the Warden to make a decision at the Landsmeet he's again all: "Oo, pick me! Pick me!" Any non-metagaming PC Warden can be excused for thinking: "I knew you'd make a great king and now it seems you want it, too, so okay!" If he had stuck with "I'll do it because it's my duty but I don't really want it" then the Warden would have known his preferences. I think his new "hardened personality" should make him state what he *really wants,* so if he says "give me the throne" it should be because he actually does want to be king.

Also, Alistair could certainly have brought up the heir thing or his reluctance to have a mistress BEFORE the Landsmeet. He can agree to the mistress thing beforehand if the PC sets up the Anora marriage, but then suddenly it becomes a problem (for unhardened Alistair) after the Landsmeet. I found that to be a major plot hole. It would have made the Landsmeet more interesting if the PC knew this stuff without having to metagame -- "Ok, I know I'm going to have four or five sh-tty options, which will I choose?"