770 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

In both scenarios, Alistair is not taking his duty seriously because he will put marrying the HNF above securing the succession.

The funny thing is: Ferelden is not even a hereditary monarchy, never was.

It's the same bad writing that allows a MAGE to become chancellor. I must have dreamed the part where mages a widely feared and not allowed to hold titles and offices.

I don't hold it against the character. There are better reasons why he needs to break up and I pretend he actually used them.

But I understand not everyone is willing to ignore this.

I can't get over how Zevran's incredibly dark past becomes a non-issue for no apparent reason. Sure, he can't admit he's in love. That's so weak for someone who used to kill people for a living, even kind of revelled in it (as is the purpose of the Crow training), used them for his own pleasure full knowing he was going to kill them.

I prefer to assume Zevran is lying about his past -- or don't befriend him, so he will betray my character.
His Awakening epilogue is kind of amusing to me, the promise of happily ever after didn't last long.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 février 2011 - 03:33 .

[Addai]

The heir issue is something that can be put off and for which there are other solutions. The fact that Alistair's confirmation by the LM is chancy as it is and would be nullified by his choosing an elf or mage for consort is an immediate political problem.



I disagree that the writers didn't intend this. In fact, I speculate that the spirit of things is to have Alistair end the relationship if he becomes king. When discussing Maric- who pondered making his elven lover queen- Gaider said that he was not the kind of person who could even keep her on the side. The writers don't believe in simple happy endings. I don't either, really. I like them complicated and grey.



BTW the baby problem is not necessarily sprung on you. If you ask him "where do you see this going?" after Eamon is woken up but before the LM, he tells you about it.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

It's the same bad writing that allows a MAGE to become chancellor. I must have dreamed the part where mages a widely feared and not allowed to hold titles and offices.

Chancellor is really just an advisor.  There have been court mages in Ferelden, like Wilhelm.  A mage and/or elf or a dwarf can inherit Gwaren and that is more OOC.

Do you have as much trouble with Leliana as with Zevran??  Just curious.

[ColaQueen]

I don't if it's been mentioned yet, but one factor against Alistair IMHO is the whole "what do you think of everyone?" interogation, it's very immature. I know it's a way to boost his approval, but unless my PC is uber inlove with him I find it a bit distasteful. His insecurity is a turn off in some ways.

[Addai]

Immature to gossip about the people you're traveling with? Seems quite natural to me.

[errant_knight]

SilverSentinel wrote...

I don't if it's been mentioned yet, but one factor against Alistair IMHO is the whole "what do you think of everyone?" interogation, it's very immature. I know it's a way to boost his approval, but unless my PC is uber inlove with him I find it a bit distasteful. His insecurity is a turn off in some ways.

What does insecurity have to do with it? He enjoys a bit of a gossip, and the two of you have collected a rather peculiar group. It's not so odd that he would want to know what you think about them. I think the devs saw it as an opportunity for roleplay and developing your PC's thoughts about relationships with the group, not a big character issue for Alistair. And this conversation also functions as both foreshadowing and a warning as to possible future events with the companions. He's not wrong about possible future actions/motivations with any of them.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 février 2011 - 06:11 .

[Shinobu]

klarabella wrote...

In both scenarios, Alistair is not taking his duty seriously because he will put marrying the HNF above securing the succession.

The funny thing is: Ferelden is not even a hereditary monarchy, never was.

This is even worse, because then the stated reason for breaking up isn't even a valid one.

klarabella wrote...
It's the same bad writing that allows a MAGE to become chancellor. I
must have dreamed the part where mages a widely feared and not allowed
to hold titles and offices.

I don't hold it against the character. There are better reasons why he needs to break up and I pretend he actually used them.

Yes, I just wish we didn't have to pretend.

klarabella wrote...


I can't get over how Zevran's incredibly dark past becomes a non-issue
for no apparent reason. Sure, he can't admit he's in love. That's so
weak for someone who used to kill people for a living, even kind of
revelled in it (as is the purpose of the Crow training), used them for
his own pleasure full knowing he was going to kill them.

I have trouble with romancing him for this reason. Having sex with women he is going to kill screams of non-con to me. I will romance him with my Dalish, though.

[Shinobu]

Addai67 wrote...

The heir issue is something that can be put off and for which there are other solutions.

Again, that's worse because the stated reason for the breakup isn't even valid.

Addai67 wrote...
The fact that Alistair's confirmation by the LM is chancy as it is and would be nullified by his choosing an elf or mage for consort is an immediate political problem.

You can certainly RP it that way, but nowhere does it state in game that if Alistair brings up the possibility of the non-HNF becoming queen he will lose the Landsmeet. If it did, non-HNF players would have less of an issue. If the non-HNF tries "I will rule beside him" the worst you get is him saying "Uh, honey, they'll barely tolerate me, let alone you." You still win the Landsmeet. Of course he can't insist on having the non-HNF as consort without losing, but to just bring it up (which is all anyone is asking for)? Not a problem.

Addai67 wrote...
I disagree that the writers didn't intend this. In fact, I speculate that the spirit of things is to have Alistair end the relationship if he becomes king. When discussing Maric- who pondered making his elven lover queen- Gaider said that he was not the kind of person who could even keep her on the side. The writers don't believe in simple happy endings. I don't either, really. I like them complicated and grey.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying the writers didn't intend to have Alistair break up with the Warden. I'm saying that the writers didn't intend (I'm sure they don't care anyway) that players would compare the outcomes (marriage vs. nonmarriage) between HNF and non-HNF and hold that against the character.

Addai67 wrote...
BTW the baby problem is not necessarily sprung on you. If you ask him "where do you see this going?" after Eamon is woken up but before the LM, he tells you about it.

Yes, but again, he doesn't shoot the Warden down when she says "We stay together, no matter what." Doubtful tone of voice is not "you know it's over between us if I become king, right?" Should that warn the player? Absolutely. Does it warn the idiot Warden who is off in La-La land? Not enough, IMO.

[erilben]

Alistair will break up with the human noble if you let him though. He will only marry the HN when the player kind of forces it on him.

[errant_knight]

erilben wrote...

Alistair will break up with the human noble if you let him though. He will only marry the HN when the player kind of forces it on him.

This is quite true. His ethics don't include having a mistress, both for his wife's and his potential mistress's sake unless you change his mind about it, something that made me respect him more, not less. When he's with the PC, he expresses doubts about the future, although he clearly hopes that you'll be able to stay together. He doesn't know if he'll end up king, or even that you'll both live, and he wants to live in the moment rather than dwelling on that. If you were able to force him to consider all the ramifications the future might bring, he'd probably break up with you right then and there. And he'd be right. There is no ending where the PC and Alistair can stay together that isn't selfish in some way. I take that selfish option as a HNF, but walk away as a non-human. I don't want to convince Alistair that he's wrong about his sense of honor.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 février 2011 - 06:46 .

[DJStarstryker]

I don't care for Alistair much because, at least to me, his personal ideals seem inconsistent. Maybe it has to do with his insecurities. I don't really know. But here's what I mean:



1) He spends most of the game trying to play a white knight sort of character, doing what's right for Ferelden first and foremost. He's willing to sacrifice his life to slay the archdemon, he's reluctant but willing to become king... but he absolutely cannot forgive Loghain. Loghain, yes, did some questionable things. But he was the hero of River Dane and he was the man who helped Maric's rebellion win and helped Maric take the throne. He doesn't give Loghain a chance to explain or anything. He is more willing to leave the party and go off drunk than to let Loghain live. This is ridiculous to me. The entire game he was talking about the Blight and killing the archdemon... but at the very end you walk away because of one decision the Warden makes about Loghain.



2) The above is the worst, but Alistair also does this on a smaller scale too. Like another poster said, he plays armchair quarterback all the time. He wants the Warden to play leader of the group, yet he constantly has to tell his opinion. Yet, sometimes, when you actually go with his opinion, he gets angry at lashes out.



I like Zevran better because at least he lets the Warden do their job. He rarely has an issue with what the Warden does, and when he does have an issue, you can even usually persuade him and he won't get angry (or not too angry). Zevran is more consistent with his role. Right from the get go he pretty much tells the Warden that, in thanks for letting him live, he'll follow the Warden's orders. And he does, with little complaint. Alistair has to insert his 2 cents constantly.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Immature to gossip about the people you're traveling with? Seems quite natural to me.

I don't see it even as gossip.  Although he has chosen to leave the decision-making to you, he is also a warden and technically your senior.  I don't think it's at all unreasonable that he should want to discuss the nature of the team you're putting together. 

[Mariefoxprice83]

I had this conversation with him a couple of days ago andt then again today - I made some dodgy choices in today's conversation such as teasing him about my friendship with Zevran and it made him angry so I went back to a previous save and picked a more innocent option.

[ColaQueen]

Addai67 wrote...

Immature to gossip about the people you're traveling with? Seems quite natural to me.

Yes, I do think it's immature. It's not something I would naturally do. Especially if I was relying on these people to have my back. Gossiping about them in the open like that isn't a way to endear people to you. It would be one thing if he was concerned about a particular indivual, say if Zevran was below friendly and it was getting late in the game and Alistair pulled you to one side and said "we need to talk about Zevran, I get the feeling he might betray you.", fair enough.  Instead he questions you about everyone whether it's necessary or not and in such a staged way. It might be a game mechanic for your to decide about your companions but having him do it like that just puts a damper on him for me.

I think rping my current pc I do find the constant "how do you feel about me?" questions off-putting. I might irl too. Even after she told him not to make her chose between him and Zev and he said ok I can't do this, he asked her again how she felt about him. If that were rl I would just be like "dude step-off I've already told you"

[Mariefoxprice83]

That's interesting. I think Alistair has asked me ONCE about the relationship. Still, I got him past 90 now so maybe stuff will happen next time I go to camp. I am going to do some stuff in Orzammar first.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
Do you have as much trouble with Leliana as with Zevran??  Just curious.

No, not as much. Leliana's story makes more sense to me. The girl with a bad past, who got the tables turned on her and saw the errors of her ways, subsequently trying to leave her old life behind. The relationship with her proceeds naturally: You meet a nice, pious girl who offers to support your cause and befriend her, before she reveals her past. At this point you can either believe that she's the person you know or be upset about her not being who you thought she was.

Compared to her Zevran's story and character developement seem kind of choppy to me.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 février 2011 - 08:55 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

In both scenarios, Alistair is not taking his duty seriously because he will put marrying the HNF above securing the succession.

The funny thing is: Ferelden is not even a hereditary monarchy, never was.

It's the same bad writing that allows a MAGE to become chancellor. I must have dreamed the part where mages a widely feared and not allowed to hold titles and offices.

I don't hold it against the character. There are better reasons why he needs to break up and I pretend he actually used them.

But I understand not everyone is willing to ignore this.

I can't get over how Zevran's incredibly dark past becomes a non-issue for no apparent reason. Sure, he can't admit he's in love. That's so weak for someone who used to kill people for a living, even kind of revelled in it (as is the purpose of the Crow training), used them for his own pleasure full knowing he was going to kill them.

I prefer to assume Zevran is lying about his past -- or don't befriend him, so he will betray my character.
His Awakening epilogue is kind of amusing to me, the promise of happily ever after didn't last long.

Zevran admits he's in love.  He just doesn't say the words. But when he says, "Everything I have been taught says what I feel is wrong, but i cannot help it," he is admitting it.  Plus he goes on to require a commitment for the future, and perhaps there's a proposal on top of that.

In fact, Zevran breaks up wtih a warden if they cannot give him some sort of commitment.  He WILL call the warden "my love" if he leaves.

If you decide to RP that he's lying about his past, that's fine, but there's really no in-game reason to think that.  I look at it as he accepts what he has done, and is grateful that he has a new path.  His past doesn't become a non-issue -- it's somethign he moves beyond.

I hate his awakening epilogue, though.  It takes his worst possible outcome (the ultimate sacrifice one) and makes it somewhat canon.  It would be like taking Alistair's quitting the gray wardens because it doesn't feel the same and disappearing as what happens to him always.

Edit: I will go further to say that for Zevran, a pivotal part of his romance is when sex becomes an expression of love. He cannot make love to the warden until they actually have committed to him.  kind of the opposite of Alistair in a lot of cases -- for a non-wife to stay with King Alistair, she has to convince him that sex and love can be separate.  But for Zevran after he falls in love, sex and love are not separate.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 février 2011 - 09:16 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Do you have as much trouble with Leliana as with Zevran??  Just curious.

No, not as much. Leliana's story makes more sense to me. The girl with a bad past, who got the tables turned on her and saw the errors of her ways, subsequently trying to leave her old life behind. The relationship with her proceeds naturally: You meet a nice, pious girl who offers to support your cause and befriend her, before she reveals her past. At this point you can either believe that she's the person you know or be upset about her not being who you thought she was.

Compared to her Zevran's story and character developement seem kind of choppy to me.

Whereas I found Zevran's forthrightness about his past and outlook refreshing, and made it easier for me to trust him than Leliana.  Naturally we all have our different perceptions of the characters.

[Addai]

DJStarstryker wrote...

I like Zevran better because at least he lets the Warden do their job. He rarely has an issue with what the Warden does, and when he does have an issue, you can even usually persuade him and he won't get angry (or not too angry). Zevran is more consistent with his role. Right from the get go he pretty much tells the Warden that, in thanks for letting him live, he'll follow the Warden's orders. And he does, with little complaint. Alistair has to insert his 2 cents constantly.

Zevran is very opinionated.  I actually like this about him, because he's been trained to follow orders without question and it shows that the Crows weren't the right career path for him (heh).

I don't expect any of the followers to just shut up and not comment.  I wish they would comment more, in fact.  It's why I don't understand people complaining about Morrigan.  She goes everywhere with me and I play fairly "good" characters, so I hear a lot of kvetching, but it only makes me like her more.  Occasionally I even let followers talk me into making certain decisions, if their reasoning is sound.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
  Occasionally I even let followers talk me into making certain decisions, if their reasoning is sound.

That's the key point.

[CalJones]

I actually trust Zevran more than Leliana. The relationship seems real up until the point she banters (with Alistair, I think) about finding what type someone's into and then becoming that person, and that makes me go "hmmm." I know she's actually supposed to be genuine, but in my character's shoes I'd be asking myself whether whether the sweet chantry girl persona was the real Leliana or just a ruse to spy on me.