770 réponses à ce sujet

[Namirsolo]

I'm having to laugh at the fact that someone said that ZEVRAN follows you like a slave. If anything, Alistair does this. You can do terrible things (such as killing the arlessa or her son) and  Alistair will disapprove but you can talk him into going along with it quite easily. In my play through where I killed Conner I only lost 7 approval with Alistair for it. And no matter how terrible of things you do (besides sparing Loghain, which I don't think is all that terrible) Alistair will never leave.

Zevran, on the other hand, is much more pragmatic and doesn't take offense if you do things which Alistair considers immoral (mainly because he doesn't think are wrong). However, he will take a huge approval hit if you spare the slaver in the alienage or the arl's son in the dungeon. He also will argue with you if you decide to support Harrowmont (and brings up a great point about why it might not be a good idea, instead of just saying "no, it's wrong" like Alistair's objections usually are). He also is against destroying the anvil of the void and you have to pass a hard coercion check to get him to only take 3 approval points if you do it.

I kind of feel like with Zevran I would get a partner for my warden, and in Alistair I'd be getting someone to babysit. The dude can't even mend his own shirts. And then there's the hygeine issue...

[LynxAQ]

Its all about the performance and the "night fun"!



Zevran all the way. Experienced guy who will no doubt take you places you never been before and will no doubt try anything and everything. No strings attached, and would probably even go for the three or foresome.



Alistair if you like clingy whiney boys, who are probably done before you have even finished undressing him. Seriously I doubt the sex with Alistair would last any longer than 15 seconds and thats being generous. Not to mention hes tiny.

[ejoslin]

LynxAQ wrote...

Its all about the performance and the "night fun"!

Zevran all the way. Experienced guy who will no doubt take you places you never been before and will no doubt try anything and everything. No strings attached, and would probably even go for the three or foresome.

Alistair if you like clingy whiney boys, who are probably done before you have even finished undressing him. Seriously I doubt the sex with Alistair would last any longer than 15 seconds and thats being generous. Not to mention hes tiny.

Zevran DID offer Alistair some roots from Antiva for THAT particular problem . . . 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sialater wrote...

Call me unromantic, but I don't require a man to give up everything for me. It makes me uncomfortable. Bhelen remade Dwarven society so that he could be with his love. He didn't remake it because it was dying. Right result, wrong motivation.

The non-human/mage PC as queen would further destabilize a country that had gone through a Blight and a civil war at the same time. I think one more social change would be the straw that would break the camel's back. Perhaps Alistair, hardened or unhardened, can see that. The Dwarves aren't quite in as bad a shape as Ferelden. From everything I've seen in Orzammar, the place was cesspool BEFORE the instability of the succession.

Ferelden had fought off the Orlesians only one generation before. Then, before they've fully cemented their own stability, a Blight comes along, a regicide occurs, and a civil war breaks out. I think it's very astute for Alistair to admit he can't handle making you a target of further unrest among the Bannorn (because that's exactly what would happen) and the common citizens of Ferelden. And then there's the whole heir thing, leading to further instability -- but that's another thread.

I like Zevran, I do, but I think accusing one character of inconstancy and another of slavish devotion is a bit much. (Because yes, the way Zevran's affection is described seems to me to be rather slavish.) From what I've seen, he also never argues with you. I kinda prefer to be argued with.

QFT

The best damned response I've seen on this thread yet, and the one with far better and wiser insight on why Alistair dumos a non-human noble.

And I totally agree with your first point. I would NOT want, nor find it romantic, for someone to give up everything just to be with me. Slavish devotion seems more a manipulation/control type relationship. I would not desire a relationship with someone who required "changing". After all, how could someone really truly like someone that required "changing'? That, to me, is molding somone in my own image of what is acceptable. A big no-no, to me.

While it might seem "romantic" for someone to give up everything for you, it sows the seeds of disaster in the long term. They might later on find themselves bitter about having to give up something important, blame you, decide you weren't worth it, ect.  Then you both end up miserable. And, if you really cared about such a person, would you really want them to give up what they wanted?

What is so very appealing about the Alistair romance is that it is the one, for a female, most deeply rooted in reality. It is a conflict of heart's desire and love overshadowed and chained to a very bitter reality that is inescapable. In the real world, it's perhaps the reason you have high divorce/easy come, easy go love affairs all over the place. People allow delusions of what "twu wuv" is to guide their choice, and such relationships are ultimately incapable of surviving the real world. In game, despite Alistair's idealism and feelings, he realizes that no matter what he feels, that ugly reality beast of fate simply cannot avoided, and both of you must face that reality and frigging well deal with it, and make some hard, unpleasant descisions and sacrifices if you really want to stay together. Just like.....THE REAL WORLD. It's just not all about you. 

It is what you are willing to deal with, out up with, and live with in order to remain soul mates with your chosen that is the true test of love. A shiny ring on your finger is not the end result of love. Staying together through the years until your time in the deep roads comes is.

I also agree it is wonderful to be argued with. Alistair does it with far more bluntness than Zev does, which is something I like. I sometimes choose responses just to ****** Alistair off and get in a little tissy. Makes the romance far more interesting.

[Namirsolo]

And I totally agree with your first point. I would NOT want, nor
find it romantic, for someone to give up everything just to be with me.
Slavish devotion seems more a manipulation/control type relationship. I
would not desire a relationship with someone who required "changing".
After all, how could someone really truly like someone that required
"changing'? That, to me, is molding somone in my own image of what is
acceptable. A big no-no, to me.

That's all well and good, but as I pointed out in my post, Zevran seems to have more of his own mind than Alistair does. I wouldn't say that Alistair "follows you like a slave".

Also, the "changing" that is in question that happens to Zevran is not his personality, but his attitude about love. The last (and quite possibly one time) that he fell in love it lead to her death. So, he is not exactly open to another relationship. He falls in love with the warden despite this. Is that "changing him?" I don't think so, it's just showing him that love is something worth having.

[ejoslin]

Well, there's a couple problems with this argument. For one, if your non-human noble PC becomes chancellor and Anora isn't in the picture, she ends up basically on the throne anyway and the people don't mind at all. Anyone OTHER than their hero they'd have a problem with I'm sure.

Also, I don't see Zevran giving up much. Well, I know, in real life, if my husband were to move cross country, I'd move with him. That's pretty much what I see with Zevran. He's not giving anything up -- he is taking a new start. Also, if you sacrifice yourself and Anora is solo queen, ok, Zevran ends up a powerful ruler in his own right (not putting in the spoiler here), but Alistair, who needs someone strong behind him, ends up failing at life.  Hmmm, actually, I know that happens if you don't harden him.  I'll have to check to see what happens if he's hardened because I don't remember!

What gets me about Alistair is not that he is willing to give up the woman he loves for duty, but the inconsistencies about it. He'll reject a human noble at 99 love, but marry one at 100 friendly. And if you're at friendly, there's an understanding that the only sex that will be going on is with someone else. He, if hardened, wants to be king and makes it quite clear, though he does not add that one essential piece of information -- that if you make him king, he's going to dump you. And he does it right before you are to go to battle. In a crowded room. Smart move to do to the head of your military . . .

Of course, if you choose to let him sacrifice himself, and you can live without the final kiss, even HE admits he was being an idiot.

Should someone try to change society? Well, king Alistair, no matter who is the strong person behind him (Anora, Eamon, or the PC), does make dramatic changes. That's why I like him being king over Anora. Ferelden has many, many problems that need changing. Do I think Alistair should marry a non-human pc? Gah, no. But then, of course, shouldn't the PC be given the knowledge from the get go that this was the heir to the throne so she can make a rational decision before falling in love herself?

Anyway, I still think it's great how emotionally involved I can get in these characters. I'm glad the writers read these forums.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 01:59 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I wasn't referring to changing Zev. Zev is unchangable in the manner I've seen many speak of. I was referring to the constant complaints that Alistair cannot be molded to fit what people percieve as "proper true love", that he won't do what they think he should do if he was in love.



The very nature of both romances is very very different, because you have two very different people. And, like real people, the nature of their love, and how they deal with it, experience it, is very different. But it does not mean one love is more or less than the other. The level of their feelings is the same, but the expression/perception of how to proceed/what it means is different.

[ejoslin]

Oh, I don't want Alistair to change. He is who he is, and I think the character is great. His weakness disappointed me my first play through, but it was my own fault for not letting myself see the weakness. All the clues were there from the beginning. I just hoped he was made of sterner stuff than even he himself admitted to.

[Taittinger]

I have to admit I am a bit dismayed at all the negative outcomes of the Alistair line. I am intending to put Anora on the throne in my mage story and do the Morrigan bit to save Alistair and run away with him. Because well, my mage is selfish. I was slightly interested in the Ali king/sacrifice myself bit, but I haven't set the game up that way so far. I really don't fully understand how sacrificing Logain figures into the romance yet.



However toying with Alistair, flirting with every cad I run into and waiting for Zevran on my noble is keeping me pretty entertained.



Tait

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, there's a couple problems with this argument. For one, if your non-human noble PC becomes chancellor and Anora isn't in the picture, she ends up basically on the throne anyway and the people don't mind at all. Anyone OTHER than their hero they'd have a problem with I'm sure.

Also, I don't see Zevran giving up much. Well, I know, in real life, if my husband were to move cross country, I'd move with him. That's pretty much what I see with Zevran. He's not giving anything up -- he is taking a new start. Also, if you sacrifice yourself and Anora is solo queen, ok, Zevran ends up a powerful ruler in his own right (not putting in the spoiler here), but Alistair, who needs someone strong behind him, ends up failing at life.  Hmmm, actually, I know that happens if you don't harden him.  I'll have to check to see what happens if he's hardened because I don't remember!

What gets me about Alistair is not that he is willing to give up the woman he loves for duty, but the inconsistencies about it. He'll reject a human noble at 99 love, but marry one at 100 friendly. And if you're at friendly, there's an understanding that the only sex that will be going on is with someone else. He, if hardened, wants to be king and makes it quite clear, though he does not add that one essential piece of information -- that if you make him king, he's going to dump you. And he does it right before you are to go to battle. In a crowded room. Smart move to do to the head of your military . . .

Of course, if you choose to let him sacrifice himself, and you can live without the final kiss, even HE admits he was being an idiot.

Should someone try to change society? Well, king Alistair, no matter who is the strong person behind him (Anora, Eamon, or the PC), does make dramatic changes. That's why I like him being king over Anora. Ferelden has many, many problems that need changing. Do I think Alistair should marry a non-human pc? Gah, no. But then, of course, shouldn't the PC be given the knowledge from the get go that this was the heir to the throne so she can make a rational decision before falling in love herself?

Anyway, I still think it's great how emotionally involved I can get in these characters. I'm glad the writers read these forums.

Chancellor is not Queen, period. She might wield signifigant influence over the king, and thus, power, but she is not Queen. Such semantics seem small, but in a tradition/law obsessed country, it's everything. Nobility is a very closed club. Title and actual social rank are more than just nifty things. If nobles in hsitory, and even today, were not so obsessed with such things, then they wouldn't preserve and worship their family" stud books" detailing their geneologies and titles like they were the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the eyes of a noble, no matter how much money or influence you had, if you were not a noble, you were still a lesser person in their eyes. We see this with Queen Anora, as through the game, their are mentions of a slight disdain because of her family's geneology. The only reason she is tolerated is because her father was a hero and promoted to the ranks of nobility. Yet even then, he was never truly considered noble, and if you listen to the rumors in the taverns, there is gossip that Anora was struck barren as the Maker's punishment for being "common". While silly rumor, it reflects the mentality of people, that nobles possess some "special blood" that makes them better than the rest of us. Even today, in Europe, there are still nobility that hold that view, that their breeding alone elevates them above the status of mere mortals.

A chancellor can bed the king, no one cares. Its usually even expected for a king to have mistressess and lovers, as no one really expects a king and queen to love, only to breed. And thus, we get down the core of it" a chancellor can't produce a legit heir. Not only the problem of the taint, but legally, it would be another royal bastard like Alistair. And we see the nightmare and problems just getting to that point. No one wants bastards on the throne. They make the exception in this case because Alistair, bastard or no, is still the only surviving royal. Alistair as king, however, is now obligated to marry a LEGAL queen, and produce a LEGAL heir, since as far as the nobility is concerned, it's now his responsibility.

As far as Alistair not telling you about his background, the game already states quite clearly that there are very good reasons his paternity is kept a secret. And, until you heal Eamon, Alistair explains that he has been told his whole life he's never going to be king, not to get any ideas, ect. So, at that point, unless you metagame, the possibility of him taking the throne seems pretty damned slim. At that point, there is no real reason to believe this is the case. At that point in the game, you're gathering an army and trying to get rid of Loghain, not Anora. A fight for the throne is not really on the horizon.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Taittinger wrote...

I have to admit I am a bit dismayed at all the negative outcomes of the Alistair line. I am intending to put Anora on the throne in my mage story and do the Morrigan bit to save Alistair and run away with him. Because well, my mage is selfish. I was slightly interested in the Ali king/sacrifice myself bit, but I haven't set the game up that way so far. I really don't fully understand how sacrificing Logain figures into the romance yet.

However toying with Alistair, flirting with every cad I run into and waiting for Zevran on my noble is keeping me pretty entertained.

Tait

Ha! Same thing. No matter who I play, both Alistair and Zev are doomed to accompany me in my tent. Someone will get their heart broken, but at least they got to get some action first.

[ejoslin]

When you don't romance Alistair at all, I think the dialog with Morrigan's and her deal is far more interesting, and paints your PC as far more self seeking -- probably more similar to the dialog male PCs get, but it couldn't be the same either. She points out that if Alistair takes the blow, he, who has basically done nothing but follow you around and follow your orders, will go down in history as the hero and that the PC will be a footnote (paraphrasing here, obviously).

My noble PC found that a very compelling argument. Much better being queen and known as the hero. She worked hard for that!

Not romancing Alistair was very difficult, though.  He is quite flirty, and most conversations had a leading dialog answer to them.  Plus, for the entire game, up until the arch demon, I had the option to tell him he was handsome.  But I wasn't going to mess up my elf consort thing going on!  Better ending all around, Ali respected me more, the people thought of me as their ruler and not just the king's adored bride . . . 

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 02:33 .

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...



Chancellor is not Queen, period. She might wield signifigant influence over the king, and thus, power, but she is not Queen. Such semantics seem small, but in a tradition/law obsessed country, it's everything. Nobility is a very closed club. Title and actual social rank are more than just nifty things. If nobles in hsitory, and even today, were not so obsessed with such things, then they wouldn't preserve and worship their family" stud books" detailing their geneologies and titles like they were the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the eyes of a noble, no matter how much money or influence you had, if you were not a noble, you were still a lesser person in their eyes. We see this with Queen Anora, as through the game, their are mentions of a slight disdain because of her family's geneology. The only reason she is tolerated is because her father was a hero and promoted to the ranks of nobility. Yet even then, he was never truly considered noble, and if you listen to the rumors in the taverns, there is gossip that Anora was struck barren as the Maker's punishment for being "common". While silly rumor, it reflects the mentality of people, that nobles possess some "special blood" that makes them better than the rest of us. Even today, in Europe, there are still nobility that hold that view, that their breeding alone elevates them above the status of mere mortals.

A chancellor can bed the king, no one cares. Its usually even expected for a king to have mistressess and lovers, as no one really expects a king and queen to love, only to breed. And thus, we get down the core of it" a chancellor can't produce a legit heir. Not only the problem of the taint, but legally, it would be another royal bastard like Alistair. And we see the nightmare and problems just getting to that point. No one wants bastards on the throne. They make the exception in this case because Alistair, bastard or no, is still the only surviving royal. Alistair as king, however, is now obligated to marry a LEGAL queen, and produce a LEGAL heir, since as far as the nobility is concerned, it's now his responsibility.

As far as Alistair not telling you about his background, the game already states quite clearly that there are very good reasons his paternity is kept a secret. And, until you heal Eamon, Alistair explains that he has been told his whole life he's never going to be king, not to get any ideas, ect. So, at that point, unless you metagame, the possibility of him taking the throne seems pretty damned slim. At that point, there is no real reason to believe this is the case. At that point in the game, you're gathering an army and trying to get rid of Loghain, not Anora. A fight for the throne is not really on the horizon.

The first conversation after Ali tells you, which is when you go to redcliff, your PC gets that Alistair is heir to the throne.  Alistair is not that stupid that he didn't realize that as Cailin's only brother that he was very possibly an heir.  The PC points out that Alistair probably has no choice in the matter.  Alistair also acknowedges he should have told you immediately after the battle (presumably because Cailin is now dead and that means he's heir) but just liked being plain old Alistair. In fact, this was one of the first strong clues given that Alistair is a weak person.

I already said that I don't think Alistair should have married a non-human.  I also said that Alistair doesn't mind if you have a child by someone else -- he thinks it's a good idea (IF you're friendly, not love).  So the heir issue is not quite a big of one between them unless he's not at 100.  Then it's breakup time.  And obviously an illegitimate son would be accepted on the throne.  

And I do understand about royalty and history.  Thank you for reiterating it.  But I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying (so I'm not articulating it well).  Alistair needs to be talked into even staying with the PC.  He should have given the PC ALL the information before getting involved to the extent he did.  He not only falls in love, but makes her choose if someone else is falling in love with her, all the way until the landsmeet where at THAT point you'd think he'd have some idea that he's going to break up with her if made king.  

I can't see a mage or a city elf making Anora queen, especially a city elf, seeing as how much they have suffered under her rule even before the coup.  I can't see a human noble being anything BUT queen (she's a Cousland, she may be a better match than Anora).  

I'll say again that Alistair is a weak man.  It's why Loghain was relieved when he realized the PC would most likely be the power behind the throne.  He didn't trust Eamon, and very likely did not see his daughter as anything but a little girl. If you make Alistair king, one of three people will be the true power, but Alistair has such a good heart that it works out well that way.

Of course, I think getting involved with Alistair is a bad idea anyway as you two are supposed to be comrades in arms on a mission.  I think I"m rambling now!

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 02:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...

Call me unromantic, but I don't require a man to give up everything for me. It makes me uncomfortable.

I am a guy, and this is the most romantic thing a girl could ever say 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 décembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...


The first conversation after Ali tells you, which is when you go to redcliff, your PC gets that Alistair is heir to the throne.  Alistair is not that stupid that he didn't realize that as Cailin's only brother that he was very possibly an heir.  The PC points out that Alistair probably has no choice in the matter.  Alistair also acknowedges he should have told you immediately after the battle (presumably because Cailin is now dead and that means he's heir) but just liked being plain old Alistair. In fact, this was one of the first strong clues given that Alistair is a weak person.

I didn't se this as "weak". If anything, it shows a deep rooted desire to be a normal person who is accepted for who he is. People voluntarily omit things from their past all the time for various reasons, and it's often not trivial matters. Alistair is clearly uncomfortable with it. I didn't point out that he had no choice in the matter, i did other dialogue options. Again, however, at that point in the game, I do not think Alistair really felt the possibility of being king was there. Anora was on the throne, and at that point, the idea of challenging her or removing her from the throne was not present. There was nothing to suggest it until Eamon returns from near death. Alistair's ommission is one of wishful dreaming, that by forgetting about it, it will not come to haunt him.

I already said that I don't think Alistair should have married a non-human.  I also said that Alistair doesn't mind if you have a child by someone else -- he thinks it's a good idea (IF you're friendly, not love).  So the heir issue is not quite a big of one between them unless he's not at 100.  Then it's breakup time.  And obviously an illegitimate son would be accepted on the throne. 

 

Not from an elf, it wouldn't. A human, maybe. Remember, Ferelden society, especially the nobles, are highly racist against elves, thinking them incapable of being worthy as more than menial servants. The views on elves are pretty similar to the view of black people pre-1960's in American society. Mulatto children were still considered subhuman by even the so called more tolerant sections of society.

And I do understand about royalty and history.  Thank you for reiterating it.  But I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying (so I'm not articulating it well).  Alistair needs to be talked into even staying with the PC.  He should have given the PC ALL the information before getting involved to the extent he did.  He not only falls in love, but makes her choose if someone else is falling in love with her, all the way until the landsmeet where at THAT point you'd think he'd have some idea that he's going to break up with her if made king. 

I suppose it entirely depends on when you do Redcliffe, really. I did it as my first stop after Lothering, so the relationship was barely one point above interested.

I can't see a mage or a city elf making Anora queen, especially a city elf, seeing as how much they have suffered under her rule even before the coup.  I can't see a human noble being anything BUT queen (she's a Cousland, she may be a better match than Anora). 

Why not? A city elf maybe, but why not a mage? Mage's are permananent outsiders of society. As far as they are concerned, the real oppressor is the Chantry that keeps them imprisoned. Whoever holds the throne is irrelevant so long as the Chantry remains. 

And my human noble absolutely did not want to be queen. Not all nobles wish to remain in their station, especially if they experienced something more to their liking. My Cousland female, after tasting a life of independence, adventure, and freedom from resonsibility felt Anora could shove the throne up her royal butt. Rebuilding the Wardens was far more meaningful.

It's all about how you roleplay, in that. Personally, other than trashing the Alienage, Anora makes a pretty damned good queen.

I'll say again that Alistair is a weak man.  It's why Loghain was relieved when he realized the PC would most likely be the power behind the throne.  He didn't trust Eamon, and very likely did not see his daughter as anything but a little girl. If you make Alistair king, one of three people will be the true power, but Alistair has such a good heart that it works out well that way.

Of course, I think getting involved with Alistair is a bad idea anyway as you two are supposed to be comrades in arms on a mission.  I think I"m rambling now!

And I don't trust Loghain, either. I still am trying to bring myself to spare him. Alistair aside, when I'm not  even romancing him, I still haven't found a reason to spare him yet. Maybe as a Dalish or dwarf, but  as a human noble, city elf, or mage, his own involvement with disaster in your personal sphere so far has simply overruled any arguement for sparring him. When I play as a dwarf, I might have one. I need the achievemnts, after all.

I don't think Alistair is a weak man. A weak ruler, maybe. But that does not equal a weak man. What he is, is someone who has been told his entire life that his own personal opinions matter little, his protests fall on deaf ears, so he has basically become someone who grew resigned to the fact that he has no choice in matters. He'll do his duty, sure. Not because he wants to, but he simply does not think he has such a choice.

Which is part of the crux of the problem. When you put Alistair on the throne (if not noble human), you have basically put the good of Ferelden above Alistair's own personal wants and needs. Even though, since Redcliffe, he has made it abundantly clear that this idea, this possibility, makes him a very miserable person thinking about it. Ultimately, when you make him king (unhardened), you have basically said you are going to sacrifice his happieness and hopes for "the greater good" Commendable. And he'll do it.

But by doing so, you have just proven yourself no different than Eamon, Isolde, the Chantry: basically, ignoring his own mental well being to pursue some grander scheme, whatever it is. So, why is it surprising that he dumps you after? You've made it clear, you value duty above love, so, he shall do his duty, which also means...that he, too, shall toss your love on the back burner. Especially since you have the chance, before landsmeet, to talk to not only him, but Eamon, and find out Anora really has done a pretty good job running the country, and has been the one doing so even when Cailain was alive.

So, the choice for me, when romancing Alistair (if I wasn't, then generally it isn't as big an issue) was to keep him off the throne and let Anora have it. It comes back to that little nag session from Wynne, where she climbs your clock about duty and love being incompatable, and goes on to say thatlove is a duality, both selfish and selfless. Whatever choice you made, it's always both.

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I didn't se this as "weak". If anything, it shows a deep rooted desire to be a normal person who is accepted for who he is. People voluntarily omit things from their past all the time for various reasons, and it's often not trivial matters. Alistair is clearly uncomfortable with it. I didn't point out that he had no choice in the matter, i did other dialogue options. Again, however, at that point in the game, I do not think Alistair really felt the possibility of being king was there. Anora was on the throne, and at that point, the idea of challenging her or removing her from the throne was not present. There was nothing to suggest it until Eamon returns from near death. Alistair's ommission is one of wishful dreaming, that by forgetting about it, it will not come to haunt him.

First clue.  Not ONLY clue.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


Not from an elf, it wouldn't. A human, maybe. Remember, Ferelden society, especially the nobles, are highly racist against elves, thinking them incapable of being worthy as more than menial servants. The views on elves are pretty similar to the view of black people pre-1960's in American society. Mulatto children were still considered subhuman by even the so called more tolerant sections of society.
I suppose it entirely depends on when you do Redcliffe, really. I did it as my first stop after Lothering, so the relationship was barely one point above interested.

Gray wardens can't have children together.  PC has already had Ali sleep with either one or two other women.  All children of human/elves are human anyway, but it's moot.  PC and Alistair cannot have a child together.  

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Why not? A city elf maybe, but why not a mage? Mage's are permananent outsiders of society. As far as they are concerned, the real oppressor is the Chantry that keeps them imprisoned. Whoever holds the throne is irrelevant so long as the Chantry remains. 

Because the regeant has the ability to take away the power of the templars and allow the mage circle to be autonomous.  King Alistair does it if asked.  But that can be considered a stretch I suppose.  Mages are definitely an underclass, but possibly not as abused as elves.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And my human noble absolutely did not want to be queen. Not all nobles wish to remain in their station, especially if they experienced something more to their liking. My Cousland female, after tasting a life of independence, adventure, and freedom from resonsibility felt Anora could shove the throne up her royal butt. Rebuilding the Wardens was far more meaningful.

It's all about how you roleplay, in that. Personally, other than trashing the Alienage, Anora makes a pretty damned good queen.

Other than the elves, she may.  She treats them worse if solo queen.  King Alistair helps them quite a bit.

And roleplay is an excellent reason for any way of playing a video game.  My noble, according to dialog choices (remember, she didn't romance Alistair at all) kept telling Alistair she wanted to be queen because she was the absolute best for the job.  Again, keep in mind that Alistair is a weak person.  Loghain called him the puppet, and his question was who was going to be the puppeteer.  If you make Alistair king, one of three people will be pulling the strings.  Anora, Eamon, or the PC.  I came to this conclusion based on ending epilogues.  One of those three are always in support of the king, with the PC actually being on the throne most of the time if Chancellor.  If Anora is on the throne with Alistair, you end up not being needed even if you elect to serve the crown.  If Alistair is solo king and you are not chancellor, Eamon abdicates Redcliff to his brother so he can help Alistair rule.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And I don't trust Loghain, either. I still am trying to bring myself to spare him. Alistair aside, when I'm not  even romancing him, I still haven't found a reason to spare him yet. Maybe as a Dalish or dwarf, but  as a human noble, city elf, or mage, his own involvement with disaster in your personal sphere so far has simply overruled any arguement for sparring him. When I play as a dwarf, I might have one. I need the achievemnts, after all.

I don't trust Loghain -- he's insane.  But he's a shrewd judge of character.  He is relieved after battling the PC because he believes he's leaving Ferelden in her hands.  And she does become general of the army.  I did spare him, and I hated the ending when he got to make the sacrifice.  But I got the achievement!  It was on my play through where I did all the bad things.  It was surprisingly not fun.  It was also on a male character, which was weird.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I don't think Alistair is a weak man. A weak ruler, maybe. But that does not equal a weak man. What he is, is someone who has been told his entire life that his own personal opinions matter little, his protests fall on deaf ears, so he has basically become someone who grew resigned to the fact that he has no choice in matters. He'll do his duty, sure. Not because he wants to, but he simply does not think he has such a choice.

This is where I disagree with you.  There's a lot wonderful about Alistair.  But he's weak.  Part of the reason he's drawn to the PC I'm sure is for her strength.  AND since this is an Alistair vs. Zevran thread, can you even begin to imagine what would have happened to Ali had he have had Zevran's upbringing?  Or even the city elf's?  Ferelden is a cold place to most, especially orphans.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Which is part of the crux of the problem. When you put Alistair on the throne (if not noble human), you have basically put the good of Ferelden above Alistair's own personal wants and needs. Even though, since Redcliffe, he has made it abundantly clear that this idea, this possibility, makes him a very miserable person thinking about it. Ultimately, when you make him king (unhardened), you have basically said you are going to sacrifice his happieness and hopes for "the greater good" Commendable. And he'll do it.

But by doing so, you have just proven yourself no different than Eamon, Isolde, the Chantry: basically, ignoring his own mental well being to pursue some grander scheme, whatever it is. So, why is it surprising that he dumps you after? You've made it clear, you value duty above love, so, he shall do his duty, which also means...that he, too, shall toss your love on the back burner. Especially since you have the chance, before landsmeet, to talk to not only him, but Eamon, and find out Anora really has done a pretty good job running the country, and has been the one doing so even when Cailain was alive.

If you harden him, he wants to be king.  He says so himself.  You do get a chance to ask him about it, and he says he wants it.  His dialog is VERY different than if you don't harden him.  And if Alistair is made king and marries the human noble at 100 love, he is an extremely happy man.  Or if the PC stays as his lover.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

So, the choice for me, when romancing Alistair (if I wasn't, then generally it isn't as big an issue) was to keep him off the throne and let Anora have it. It comes back to that little nag session from Wynne, where she climbs your clock about duty and love being incompatable, and goes on to say thatlove is a duality, both selfish and selfless. Whatever choice you made, it's always both.

She said it was a duality?  I didn't get that at all.  She said love was selfish, but that doesn't mean it's not worthy, even if it doesn't last.  I'll have to pay more attention to what she says next time. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:37 .

[MorningBird]

Honestly, I have trouble seeing Alistair as a 'weak' character.  Obviously with Cailan dead he's the heir to the throne, but you've got to remember that for most of his life, Alistair was raised to believe he had absolutely no business in royal affairs; that he was subpar.  Having been convinced of such things from a very early age, I can't imagine it took very long for Alistair to believe himself incapable of ruling.

So yes, it takes a lot of encouraging from the PC to convince Alistair that he is worthy of his noble heritage.  It's like reverse brainwashing, there's a lot of damage that needs to be 'undone' in order for him to give a damn about his birthright.

Whether or not that makes him a 'pansy' is left up to each player and their individual play through, though I honestly can't condemn him for preferring to be a follower.  If he needed the help of my PC to get his arse on the throne, big deal.  In comparison to the Deep Roads--with its giant, mutant spiders and big, ugly Broodmothers... *shudder*... giving a friend a morale boost is asking very little.

As far as romance goes, I still prefer Zevran, but that doesn't make Alistair a wimp or 'lesser' man (imo).

Modifié par MorningBird, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[HarlequinDream]

I romanced Zevran recently, and I was really impressed by how much I liked him. Now I'm working on (another) Alistair romance. Then it's Lelianna's turn.



And then I have to finally make a male character and romance Morrigan.

[ejoslin]

Oh, and if you don't harden Alistair, then make Anora queen, see what happens to Alistair when he no longer has a strong person by his side if you sacrifice yourself. I know what happens if he's not hardened. I'll find out shortly  if he is strong enough to not be completely pathetic without a strong person guiding him if hardened. I hate the Anora funeral though. She's annoying!

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:44 .

[HarlequinDream]

I never thought I'd prefer my one moment of meanness to Alistair, having to kick him when he's down... but it really makes life SO much easier to harden him.

[Cybercat999]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I also agree it is wonderful to be argued with. Alistair does it with far more bluntness than Zev does, which is something I like. I sometimes choose responses just to ****** Alistair off and get in a little tissy. Makes the romance far more interesting.

Zevran states his opinions with a lot of bluntness, very cooly and even with bit of cynicism.
Alistair on the other hand seems to be only capable of yelling and hissy fits.

I know what type of "argument" I would expect from grown up man. I fail to see acting like a hysterical little kid romantic. But as the say, different strokes.....

[ejoslin]

MorningBird wrote...

Honestly, I have trouble seeing Alistair as a 'weak' character.  Obviously with Cailan dead he's the heir to the throne, but you've got to remember that for most of his life, Alistair was raised to believe he had absolutely no business in royal affairs; that he was subpar.  Having been convinced of such things from a very early age, I can't imagine it took very long for Alistair to believe himself incapable of ruling.

So yes, it takes a lot of encouraging from the PC to convince Alistair that he is worthy of his noble heritage.  It's like reverse brainwashing, there's a lot of damage that needs to be 'undone' in order for him to give a damn about his birthright.

Whether or not that makes him a 'pansy' is left up to each player and their individual play through, though I honestly can't condemn him for preferring to be a follower.  If he needed the help of my PC to get his arse on the throne, big deal.  In comparison to the Deep Roads--with its giant, mutant spiders and big, ugly Broodmothers... *shudder*... giving a friend a morale boost is asking very little.

As far as romance goes, I still prefer Zevran, but that doesn't make Alistair a wimp or 'lesser' man (imo).

I am calling Alistair weak, not a wimp, not lesser.  He's not a strong man; that's not necessarily a bad thing.  There is so much wonderful about Alistair.  If he were strong, the chemestry would not be nearly what it is.  He is what he is, and that's why the story is so compelling!

[ejoslin]

HarlequinDream wrote...

I never thought I'd prefer my one moment of meanness to Alistair, having to kick him when he's down... but it really makes life SO much easier to harden him.

He is much happier if you do harden him.  He fails at life without it.  I'm a few hours away from finding out if he fails at life if left on his own (not king, no PC) and hardened.  I'm hoping he turns out better than he does in that circumstance when he's not hardened.  I have to start from just before the Alienage though on my archer  And I have both Zev and Alistair at 100 love so I can't even talk to them outside of Arl Eamon's estate!  *grin* What won't I do to find out all bits of dialog to share?  Merry Christmas!

[Cybercat999]

ejoslin wrote...
And I have both Zev and Alistair at 100 love so I can't even talk to them outside of Arl Eamon's estate!

When I do that my game ending bugs out completely. Very funny bugs and I chuckle a lot but bugs nevertheless. So dont be surprised if you get some odd epilogue.

[Original182]

The Alistair vs Zevran fan clubs is more epic than me going against bardy robert. I gotta take some notes.