190 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

DA2 as others have stated is reactive on a more micro level. Some quests depend on your influence with your companions. Example in the Dissent quest Hawke's influence with Anders can save a life. In the quest to catch a thief leading to demands of the qun depending on Hawke's influence with Isabela she will return with the relic. Hawke can then decide to hand over Isabela to the Arishok, duel the Arishok if Hawke refuses to hand over Isabela, or fight party on party.

If Hawke's influence is too low Isabela will not return. But, If Fenris is in your party he can arrange a duel with the Arishok. If no Fenris but the Arishok considers Hawke a worthy rival Hawke can force a duel. Otherwise it is a party on party melee.

[Fast Jimmy]

^
All true examples, but none of which have any impact on the story. Whether you killed the Arishok or made a deal, people still treat you as the Champion. And saving Anders from going ballistic on the woman would be meaningful if we ever saw her or anyone who knew her ever again in the entire game.

What you call 'micro level' impacts I call no impact whatsoever, merely just different dialogue outcomes that in no way even hint that the world or events were changed. DA:O was able to pull of this illusion, DA2 did not even appear to try.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Mike Laidlaw has been obviously playing a different game that has been kept under heavy scrutiny at BioWare HQ and is not to be released until 2015, along with the Indoctrination Theory DLC reveal.

[jillabender]

Plaintiff wrote…

*snip*

That's a good point – it's true that many quests in DA2 do have quite a variety of ways they can turn out depending on Hawke's choices.

Personally, I think the reason DA2 didn't quite feel satisfying to me wasn't that the game didn't react to my choices – the game did react. My dissatisfaction was for other reasons.

Part of my difficulty with DA2 was that I had been expecting for Hawke to take a more active role in either helping the Mage underground or working for the Templars, when in fact, the story seems to have been written for Hawke to be a bystander reluctantly drawn in to the conflict. That would have been fine, except that it resulted in the story feeling unfocused to me.

When a story is about a main character being reluctantly drawn into a conflict, the story usually focuses on how the main character changes and grows as a result of that – does he initially feel that the people around him aren't worth saving, but have a change of heart? Does she become progressively more determined, or progressively more bitter and resentful, as a result of getting involved?

My difficulty with DA2 was that I didn't know how Hawke was affected as a person by being drawn into the conflict between the Mages and the Templars, because the game didn't really tell me. I never had the sense that Hawke was facing any kind of inner conflict or struggle. I tried to fill in those details using my own imagination, but I couldn't find a way to do it that really felt satisfying.

So, to summarize, I would have been fine with the idea of stepping into the role of a predefined characted like Hawke if I got to see him or her changing and growing as a person. But in DA2, Hawke felt like a very static character, especially compared to the companion characters, and that's part of why, although I had fun playing it, it left me feeling unsatisfied.

Modifié par jillabender, 27 août 2012 - 07:59 .

[CELL55]

I think DA2 would have been better as a novel; without the expectation of their choices meaning something, the audience wouldn't get upset or dismayed when the author makes the plot go wherever they want it to go.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
All true examples, but none of which have any impact on the story. Whether you killed the Arishok or made a deal, people still treat you as the Champion. And saving Anders from going ballistic on the woman would be meaningful if we ever saw her or anyone who knew her ever again in the entire game.

What you call 'micro level' impacts I call no impact whatsoever, merely just different dialogue outcomes that in no way even hint that the world or events were changed. DA:O was able to pull of this illusion, DA2 did not even appear to try.

You recieve a letter from the mage girl involved. Her name is Ella. She tells Hawke exactly what is going on in her life. She does not tell Hawke where she is. The impact is on a personal level. Just like in real life everyone does not make world changing decisions but do at times make decisions that can impact someone on a personal level. It has impact for that particular person. It does not have to change the over all events. But in this case Ella lives or dies because of that decision.

The one with the Arishok does change events. The Qunari either leave peacefully, the Arishok  is killed in the duel or the Arishok and party die at Hawke's party's hand. The outcome is the same, but on a personal level the Arishok gets to live and Hawke decides the fate of one of the companions.

[roundcrow]

In regard to DA2, if I wanted to make a bunch of small decisions that usually come back and bite me in the behind, while getting buffeted about by greater forces over which I have minimal control, I'll just....get up in the morning.

[Realmzmaster]

roundcrow wrote...

In regard to DA2, if I wanted to make a bunch of small decisions that usually come back and bite me in the behind, while getting buffeted about by greater forces over which I have minimal control, I'll just....get up in the morning.

You mean saving someone's life is a small decision? Without Hawke influencing Vengenance Ella dies. Sometimes it is the small decisions that have a greater impact down the line.

For example it really does not matter who the warden supports between the different factions as long as the warden gets the army. That is the most important point. Does not matter which dwarf noble is placed on the throne. That is a small matter because both will give the warden an army.  It does not matter between the elves or werewolves. It does not matter if the warden saves Redcliffe as long as Arl Eamon lives. The warden's task is to kill the ArchDemon, but on a less earth changing level it can matter.

[FieryDove]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You mean saving someone's life is a small decision? Without Hawke influencing Vengenance Ella dies. Sometimes it is the small decisions that have a greater impact down the line.

Do we really know this as fact? What happens if Hawke does not help Anders in any of these quests? We do know kaboom happens regardless so its kind of iffy yes?

[Darth Death]

FieryDove wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You mean saving someone's life is a small decision? Without Hawke influencing Vengenance Ella dies. Sometimes it is the small decisions that have a greater impact down the line.

Do we really know this as fact? What happens if Hawke does not help Anders in any of these quests? We do know kaboom happens regardless so its kind of iffy yes?

Yes, the KABOOM does happen regardless if you do Ander's quest or not. Only the dialogue is different when blame is being placed. 

[Indoctrination]

Darth Death wrote...

BioWare always meant well, but when it came time for execution, it's a whole different story.

People don't "mean well" when they objectively lie to you about the content in their game. They knew what Dragon Age II was and they told us it was something else. The people who worked on ME3 did the same thing. They objectively lied about the content of the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

To what was the game reacting? We weren't actually allowed any input into what was going on, so there was nothing to which for the game to react.

[Realmzmaster]

FieryDove wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You mean saving someone's life is a small decision? Without Hawke influencing Vengenance Ella dies. Sometimes it is the small decisions that have a greater impact down the line.

Do we really know this as fact? What happens if Hawke does not help Anders in any of these quests? We do know kaboom happens regardless so its kind of iffy yes?

That like saying  "the ArchDemon lands on Fort Drakon no matter what". The gamer has no way of changing that. It is not like we get to see Riordan miss jumping on the ArchDemon and destroying one of its' wings, but instead immediately falls to his death. Therefore the ArchDemon never lands and you have no way to defeat it.

We do know that nothing we do will change that event. It has to happen. So if Anders does not do it. It could be done by some random unknown mage. The Kaboom will still happen.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 27 août 2012 - 08:48 .

[Darth Death]

Indoctrination wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

BioWare always meant well, but when it came time for execution, it's a whole different story.

People don't "mean well" when they objectively lie to you about the content in their game. They knew what Dragon Age II was and they told us it was something else. The people who worked on ME3 did the same thing. They objectively lied about the content of the game.

I can't argue against your statement. I dunno, things happen. 

[AmstradHero]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

To what was the game reacting? We weren't actually allowed any input into what was going on, so there was nothing to which for the game to react.

Oh come on Sylvius, that is ridiculous. Bringing your "DA2 wasn't roleplaying because of a voiced protagonist" schtick in here isn't the issue at hand. Not being able to roleplay the way you want is completely different to being unable to have input. Hawke gets to make decisions during the game. There may not always be an option that you like, and it may be delivered with a tone of voice that you don't agree with, but Hawke still gets to make a choice about an action that is directed by the player.

DA2 reacts to those actions. The game has plenty of other flaws, but getting reactions on the micro level is something the game does right.

[labargegrrrl]

AmstradHero wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

To what was the game reacting? We weren't actually allowed any input into what was going on, so there was nothing to which for the game to react.

Oh come on Sylvius, that is ridiculous. Bringing your "DA2 wasn't roleplaying because of a voiced protagonist" schtick in here isn't the issue at hand. Not being able to roleplay the way you want is completely different to being unable to have input. Hawke gets to make decisions during the game. There may not always be an option that you like, and it may be delivered with a tone of voice that you don't agree with, but Hawke still gets to make a choice about an action that is directed by the player.

DA2 reacts to those actions. The game has plenty of other flaws, but getting reactions on the micro level is something the game does right.

ssshhhh!  don't engage him directly!  just slowly back from the sylvius and maybe he won't kill the entire thread!

[Nefla]

It's the most reactive in that it's the least proactive. You just sit there and wait for things to happen to you, and people to come to you telling you to do things, etc...you never take any action on your own and seem to have no ambition or drive.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AmstradHero wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

To what was the game reacting? We weren't actually allowed any input into what was going on, so there was nothing to which for the game to react.

Oh come on Sylvius, that is ridiculous. Bringing your "DA2 wasn't roleplaying because of a voiced protagonist" schtick in here isn't the issue at hand. Not being able to roleplay the way you want is completely different to being unable to have input. Hawke gets to make decisions during the game. There may not always be an option that you like, and it may be delivered with a tone of voice that you don't agree with, but Hawke still gets to make a choice about an action that is directed by the player.

Hawke makes the choice.  The player just gets to watch.

[PhillyB]

It's simply marketing. If you want to believe these claims, it's your problem, not mine.

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You recieve a letter from the mage girl involved. Her name is Ella. She tells Hawke exactly what is going on in her life. She does not tell Hawke where she is. The impact is on a personal level. Just like in real life everyone does not make world changing decisions but do at times make decisions that can impact someone on a personal level. It has impact for that particular person. It does not have to change the over all events. But in this case Ella lives or dies because of that decision.

The one with the Arishok does change events. The Qunari either leave peacefully, the Arishok  is killed in the duel or the Arishok and party die at Hawke's party's hand. The outcome is the same, but on a personal level the Arishok gets to live and Hawke decides the fate of one of the companions.

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome. Anymore than referencing choices from previous games in the Codex as a valid 'follow through' to a choice. It doesn't feel real to me. I realize that's being obtuse, but if it is something as throw-away as a letter or a Codex entry, that just doesn't feel like anything has made anything of merit. 

If Laidlaw saw enough. Merit in the complaints of lack of choices in DA2, then I can think we safely can say there was NOT enough reactivity. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 août 2012 - 10:37 .

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You recieve a letter from the mage girl involved. Her name is Ella. She tells Hawke exactly what is going on in her life. She does not tell Hawke where she is. The impact is on a personal level. Just like in real life everyone does not make world changing decisions but do at times make decisions that can impact someone on a personal level. It has impact for that particular person. It does not have to change the over all events. But in this case Ella lives or dies because of that decision.

The one with the Arishok does change events. The Qunari either leave peacefully, the Arishok  is killed in the duel or the Arishok and party die at Hawke's party's hand. The outcome is the same, but on a personal level the Arishok gets to live and Hawke decides the fate of one of the companions.

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome. Anymore than referencing choices from previous games in the Codex as a valid 'follow through' to a choice. It doesn't feel real to me. I realize that's being obtuse, but if it is something as throw-away as a letter or a Codex entry, that just doesn't feel like anything has made anything of merit. 

If Laidlaw saw enough. Merit in the complaints of lack of choices in DA2, then I can think we safely can say there was NOT enough reactivity. 

There we have a difference I never thought the epilogue slides in DAO were all that good or necessary. I actually like the letter system better because it happened in game and not at the end. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You recieve a letter from the mage girl involved. Her name is Ella. She tells Hawke exactly what is going on in her life. She does not tell Hawke where she is. The impact is on a personal level. Just like in real life everyone does not make world changing decisions but do at times make decisions that can impact someone on a personal level. It has impact for that particular person. It does not have to change the over all events. But in this case Ella lives or dies because of that decision.

The one with the Arishok does change events. The Qunari either leave peacefully, the Arishok  is killed in the duel or the Arishok and party die at Hawke's party's hand. The outcome is the same, but on a personal level the Arishok gets to live and Hawke decides the fate of one of the companions.

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome. Anymore than referencing choices from previous games in the Codex as a valid 'follow through' to a choice. It doesn't feel real to me. I realize that's being obtuse, but if it is something as throw-away as a letter or a Codex entry, that just doesn't feel like anything has made anything of merit. 

If Laidlaw saw enough. Merit in the complaints of lack of choices in DA2, then I can think we safely can say there was NOT enough reactivity. 

Did you consider the epilogue slides of DA:O to be a 'worthwhile outcome'?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome.

Especially since the player won't even know there are letters without metagaming.

[AmstradHero]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome.

Especially since the player won't even know there are letters without metagaming.

Please explain to me how being told by an in-game character "You have unread messages at your private terminal" and then checking said terminal is meta-gaming.  Or likewise, interacting with an in-game object of your own volition.

Metagaming. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In ME2 it works. If DA2 it does not.

No one tells Hawke he has letters.  Notices of them just magically appear in his journal.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 août 2012 - 08:03 .