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[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You recieve a letter from the mage girl involved. Her name is Ella. She tells Hawke exactly what is going on in her life. She does not tell Hawke where she is. The impact is on a personal level. Just like in real life everyone does not make world changing decisions but do at times make decisions that can impact someone on a personal level. It has impact for that particular person. It does not have to change the over all events. But in this case Ella lives or dies because of that decision.

The one with the Arishok does change events. The Qunari either leave peacefully, the Arishok  is killed in the duel or the Arishok and party die at Hawke's party's hand. The outcome is the same, but on a personal level the Arishok gets to live and Hawke decides the fate of one of the companions.

I have trouble  seeing the letter system (or email system in the ME games) as a worthwhile outcome. Anymore than referencing choices from previous games in the Codex as a valid 'follow through' to a choice. It doesn't feel real to me. I realize that's being obtuse, but if it is something as throw-away as a letter or a Codex entry, that just doesn't feel like anything has made anything of merit. 

If Laidlaw saw enough. Merit in the complaints of lack of choices in DA2, then I can think we safely can say there was NOT enough reactivity. 

Did you consider the epilogue slides of DA:O to be a 'worthwhile outcome'?

I did. And there are reasons for that.

First, the epilogue slides were a satisfying addition to the regular game ending. They were not stand-alone endings, but rather additional flavor to the existing ending. If DA:O ended when I opened the doors to the crowds outside the throne room (or, even worse, right after the death of the Archdemon scene, before I had a chance to talk and touch base with all of my companions and other NPCs), that would have been less satisfying. Finishing the main story, letting me interact with the companions I'd spent dozens of game hours getting to know AFTER we've saved the day to get an idea of what they wanted with their lives and where they were going, and to THEN get little bits of text saying how I'd touched random pieces of the world with my actions? That's a good way to end a game.

DA2 did none of this in their ending. They ended it right after the action. There was no circling of the wagons to see how the dust settles in Kirkwall, its all just "and then Hawke left" and we're right back to Varric and Cassandra. There is no time to decompress from the game you just put dozens of hours into playing. DA:O uses a variety of techniques to make you feel important at the END of the game, which is where it makes sense to put the most of your feelings of Validation. If any of the epilogue slides were put in the middle of the game, right after you made each choice, they would have felt trite, much like the letters did.

In addition, the letters, themselves, are bland. They are standard format almost every time: "Hey Hawke, you might not remember me, I'm <so and so>. Thank you for saving me, you rock. You are a platter of awesome duck smothered in awesome sauce. My life is so much better for having met you." None of the epilogue slides in DA:O were that self-serving to tell the main character how awesome they were. In fact, they almost never actually mention the Warden. 

And, in relation to my complaints about the Codex entries, they are formatted much the same way as the epilogue slides and do a pretty interesting job of bringing information into the fold... the problem is that they are Codex entries. They are hidden away in the sub-menu, barely flagged and barely noted. The slides you see, regardless. And, if you choose in a way that resulted poorly, (like picking Harrowmont and winding up causing more harm than you had intended), you were faced with that decision. Hiding that fact in a Codex entry instead would have completely softened the impact of the choice to the point of not even mattering.


So, to sum up: letters are unsatisfying because they are 90% of the time incredibly predictable, follow a predictable format and, all in all, feeling trite and boring. Codex entires are usually of pretty decent quality in explaining the impact of events from an informational point of view, but are hidden in the menu instead of brought to the front. Epilogue slides present consequences of a player's actions, for good or ill, and do not spend extraneous time glorifying the player unneccesarily. Also, they occur at the end of the game, where they belong, as a way to reflect on all of the choices made in game and to show what kind of impact your character had and serve as a supplement to the existing main ending. Either one standing on its own merits aren't as effective, it is only when they compliment each other that they both truly shine. And, to add more on the pile, the number of available letters is insanely small, when compared to the number of possible epilogue slides. If there were truly a wide variety of letters to receive that reflected lots of choices, none of this may have bothered me that much.

[Darth Death]

^
I agree. Your first paragraph almost made me cry.

Modifié par Darth Death, 28 août 2012 - 06:22 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In ME2 it works. If DA2 it does not.

No one tells Hawke he has letters.  Notices of them just magically appear in his journal.

Bohan tells Hawke when he has letters at the hawke estate. Gamlen tells him when you are lodging at his hovel.

Bethany even jokes about it because Gamelen keeps trying to read them. The town map also lets you know when a new letter has arrived by showing a envelope next to your residence. The letters do not just magically appear in the journal. 

Example the quest A Noble Agenda Ser Marlein Selbrech meets Hawke and company in Hightown and gives Hawke a scroll to read. If Hawke accepts the scroll she then tells Hawke all further communication will be conducted by letter. Once Hawke finishes the assignments on the scroll a letter will arrive telling Hawke about a meeting between nobles. Bohan informs Hawke of new letters at his writing table and the letter icon is see on the city map also informing of new letter.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 août 2012 - 06:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

You have to go to the house for those characters to tell you those things, and, frankly, I don't recall Bodahn ever saying anything of the sort (is that Act specific? I didn't really play Act III because I ran out of in-character things to do).

Quest markers on the map are metagame information. I made a point of ignoring them.

[Renmiri1]

Bodham says it to you every time you cross the dorway from the entrance lobby to the main room.

[Sylvius the Mad]

So Hawke would have to go home first, which he generally has no reason to do.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So Hawke would have to go home first, which he generally has no reason to do.

In Act 1 A New Home is one of the quests. Hawke walks in and is shown the details of the home including the writing desk. Gamlen tells you if you have letters. If your Hawke chooses not to go home then certain quests will be unavailable to Hawke. In Act 2 the quest Finding Home introduces Hawke to the estate and shows him the writing desk. Bohdan tells Hawke that is where he will put all letters that Hawke recieves. So if your Hawke chooses not to come home every now and then that is your choice even if you choose to ignore the letter icon as metagaming.

If you choose not to come home then Hawke misses out on any quests or gifts sent to his home. Bohdan informs Hawke about the letters in both Acts 2 and 3.. When he walks in the main room.

Yes Hawke does have a reason to go home, because in Act2 and 3 that is the only place Hawke can attach runes to weapons or armor because Sandal is living there. There is no other place to attach them. In Act 1 Sandal is in the dwarf merchant guild square.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 août 2012 - 10:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't think I ever bothered attaching a rune after Act I. I honestly didn't even remember that Bodahn and Sandal moved into the house.

Wait, is Bodahn's announcement just audio, or is there a subtitle? I usually had the voices turned down. I'm likely to have missed any ambient conversation.

But, yes, I suppose it's plausible that Hawke might check for mail from time to time. Though, I don't remember to check my mail in real life, so it's not surprising I don't do it in-game.

And I still think paying any attention to that letter icon constitutes metagaming.

There were gifts?

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think I ever bothered attaching a rune after Act I. I honestly didn't even remember that Bodahn and Sandal moved into the house.

Wait, is Bodahn's announcement just audio, or is there a subtitle? I usually had the voices turned down. I'm likely to have missed any ambient conversation.

But, yes, I suppose it's plausible that Hawke might check for mail from time to time. Though, I don't remember to check my mail in real life, so it's not surprising I don't do it in-game.

And I still think paying any attention to that letter icon constitutes metagaming.

There were gifts?

Yes there were gifts and money sent with the mail. Quite a few questgivers sent money or gifts after the completion of their quests.

And yes the announcements were audible no subtitles. But even if you had the sound down you could check the writing table.
In fact in the Finding Home quest you will see Bohdan putting letters on the desk.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 août 2012 - 11:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yes there were gifts and money sent with the mail. Quite a few questgivers sent money or gifts after the completion of their quests.

I did not know that.

[jbrand2002uk]

I Think in one of the Templar quests you got a set of Templar armour from Meredith but yeah its generally gold and or runes etc

[Darth Death]

Nefla wrote...

It's the most reactive in that it's the least proactive. You just sit there and wait for things to happen to you, and people to come to you telling you to do things, etc...you never take any action on your own and seem to have no ambition or drive.

I wished (we the) players had the option to decide what ambitions Hawke can strive for, instead of playing messenger boy/girl to reach "champion of Kirkwall" status. DA2's narrative was too linear. No matter what you do, Hawke will always be crown champion, along with the destruction of the chantry. Players decisions became worthless. In order for choices to matter, the narrative must be more dynamic. Multiple plot webs leading to different conclusions.   

Modifié par Darth Death, 29 août 2012 - 01:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yes there were gifts and money sent with the mail. Quite a few questgivers sent money or gifts after the completion of their quests.

I did not know that.

Not only that if you click on Sandal at home at the beginning of Act 2 he will give you Sandal's Special Rune.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 29 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I Think in one of the Templar quests you got a set of Templar armour from Meredith but yeah its generally gold and or runes etc

My Hawke's general refusal to deal with Meredith is what ultimately ended my playthrough.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 29 août 2012 - 02:33 .

[edeheusch]

Realmzmaster wrote...

That like saying "the ArchDemon lands on Fort Drakon no matter what". The gamer has no way of changing that. It is not like we get to see Riordan miss jumping on the ArchDemon and destroying one of its' wings, but instead immediately falls to his death. Therefore the ArchDemon never lands and you have no way to defeat it.

We do know that nothing we do will change that event. It has to happen. So if Anders does not do it. It could be done by some random unknown mage. The Kaboom will still happen.

If only it has been implemented like that the game would have been much more satisfying!
The Kaboom is an important plot and I agree that it should not be avoidable but the ways it happened does not make much sense in many playgrounds. There should have been a way to prevent Anders from doing it in which case another mage would have been responsible.

Another example of awful implementation is the quest Best Served Cold:

Spoiler

You should have an option to kill Grace the first time you meet her and if you helped her enough she should not turn against you. If they had implemented an alternate path were somebody else was responsible of the events of Best Served Cold, the game would have given a far better illusion of choice.

[Darth Death]

edeheusch wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

That like saying "the ArchDemon lands on Fort Drakon no matter what". The gamer has no way of changing that. It is not like we get to see Riordan miss jumping on the ArchDemon and destroying one of its' wings, but instead immediately falls to his death. Therefore the ArchDemon never lands and you have no way to defeat it.

We do know that nothing we do will change that event. It has to happen. So if Anders does not do it. It could be done by some random unknown mage. The Kaboom will still happen.

If only it has been implemented like that the game would have been much more satisfying!
The Kaboom is an important plot and I agree that it should not be avoidable but the ways it happened does not make much sense in many playgrounds. There should have been a way to prevent Anders from doing it in which case another mage would have been responsible.

DA2 already establishes Anders as a hateful mage seeking vengeance against the templar order, so his course of action was relevant. I don't see the difference if an unknown mage destroyed the chantry or Anders being talked out of it, the end result is still the same. That's an illusion of choice & not a decision having a significant difference in outcome.  

Modifié par Darth Death, 29 août 2012 - 01:43 .

[Foolsfolly]

Darth Death wrote...

edeheusch wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

That like saying "the ArchDemon lands on Fort Drakon no matter what". The gamer has no way of changing that. It is not like we get to see Riordan miss jumping on the ArchDemon and destroying one of its' wings, but instead immediately falls to his death. Therefore the ArchDemon never lands and you have no way to defeat it.

We do know that nothing we do will change that event. It has to happen. So if Anders does not do it. It could be done by some random unknown mage. The Kaboom will still happen.

If only it has been implemented like that the game would have been much more satisfying!
The Kaboom is an important plot and I agree that it should not be avoidable but the ways it happened does not make much sense in many playgrounds. There should have been a way to prevent Anders from doing it in which case another mage would have been responsible.

DA2 already establishes Anders as a hateful mage seeking vengeance against the templar order, so his course of action was relevant. I don't see the difference if an unknown mage destroyed the chantry or Anders being talked out of it, the end result is still the same. That's an illusion of choice & not a decision having a significant difference in outcome.  

I agree. Anders' deteriorating sense of Justice and is rising madness is established. And his attack is part of how more and more monsterous he's getting as Vengeance takes over. Replace him with Random Mage Number 1 and that's just arbitary and stupid.

Now if you say killed Anders after that bit with the girl in Act 2 (instead of kicking him out of the band) then perhaps Meredith's madness could start off the war by having her suspect Elthina of being possessed by blood mages. So she sends in her Templars to put down the blood mage's thralls. Then moves to annull the Circle out of some delusional sense of avenging Elthina.

Like having the big fight in the Gallows should be the same regardless of choice. But your choices should have gotten you there for very different reasons and with very different actions.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 29 août 2012 - 02:40 .

[edeheusch]

Darth Death wrote...
DA2 already establishes Anders as a hateful mage seeking vengeance against the templar order, so his course of action was relevant. I don't see the difference if an unknown mage destroyed the chantry or Anders being talked out of it, the end result is still the same. That's an illusion of choice & not a decision having a significant difference in outcome. 

Unless you are playing a P&P RPG with a really good GM the choices are always illusion of choices when there are related to main plot events.
The main difference between DAO and DA2 (and one of the reasons why so many players are complaining about the lack of choices in DA2) is that DA2 failed to give the illusion that the choices of the player mattered.
In my playground, Anders was what I could have called a friend, he knew that my character was for the freedom for the mages and how Anders acted seemed totally out of context.
Alone it isn’t much of a problem but during a playground of DA2 there are too many characters that acted in a way that I did not consider believable considering my actions (Anders, Grace, Orsino… and worst that all: Hawke). 

[Darth Death]

edeheusch wrote...

Darth Death wrote...
DA2 already establishes Anders as a hateful mage seeking vengeance against the templar order, so his course of action was relevant. I don't see the difference if an unknown mage destroyed the chantry or Anders being talked out of it, the end result is still the same. That's an illusion of choice & not a decision having a significant difference in outcome. 

Unless you are playing a P&P RPG with a really good GM the choices are always illusion of choices when there are related to main plot events.
The main difference between DAO and DA2 (and one of the reasons why so many players are complaining about the lack of choices in DA2) is that DA2 failed to give the illusion that the choices of the player mattered.
In my playground, Anders was what I could have called a friend, he knew that my character was for the freedom for the mages and how Anders acted seemed totally out of context.
Alone it isn’t much of a problem but during a playground of DA2 there are too many characters that acted in a way that I did not consider believable considering my actions (Anders, Grace, Orsino… and worst that all: Hawke). 

Anders personality was out of context during his transfer from Awakening to DA2. Interestingly enough, I felt most mages in DA2 were out of context. Anders, Grace, & Orsino? Notice how they're all mages? BioWare tried to give Meredith a good reason for her abrupt behavior at the end, but my suspension of disbelief compass was already broken. 

As for illusion of choice, the plot requires a certain amount of flexibility for players decisions to feel meaningful. I think DAO did a good job embodying players choices & having those decisions impact your army for the final fight. You're still a gray warden, you still need to defeat the darkspawn, but how the gamer can go about it, contrasting from other gamers experiences, crates a dynamic outlook venturing within the world of DAO. That's why it's intriguing listening to others playthroughs because there's a lot of, "I didn't know that could happen" moments.   

Modifié par Darth Death, 29 août 2012 - 03:53 .

[Renmiri1]

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

[Darth Death]

Renmiri1 wrote...

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

Anders in Awakening: A friendly cat lover that told jokes.:innocent:
Anders in DA2: A derange terrorist that told jokes.  

[hussey 92]

Darth Death wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

Anders in Awakening: A friendly cat lover that told jokes.:innocent:
Anders in DA2: A derange terrorist that told jokes.  

yeah, Anders was pretty laid back in Awakening.  I think they changed his personality so they could push the DA2 plot forward.

[LinksOcarina]

hussey 92 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

Anders in Awakening: A friendly cat lover that told jokes.:innocent:
Anders in DA2: A derange terrorist that told jokes.  

yeah, Anders was pretty laid back in Awakening.  I think they changed his personality so they could push the DA2 plot forward.

Except that we saw some extremes to Ander's personality in Awakening a few times. The argument with Wynne comes to mind as an example of this, and his dialouge with Justice is also quite...chilling considering what happens.

Plus we got to remember Ander's is not fully Ander's anymore in Dragon Age II. The merge with Justice and transformation into Vengance was kind of major, as it is making him act out of his inner demons, as it were. 

[Plaintiff]

Darth Death wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

Anders in Awakening: A friendly cat lover that told jokes.:innocent:
Anders in DA2: A derange terrorist that told jokes.  

He never stopped being friendly and he never stopped loving cats, and those were never the most important aspects of his personality.