190 réponses à ce sujet

[Teddie Sage]

Both Anders are awesome in my opinion. I loved his character evolution.

[Renmiri1]

Teddie Sage wrote...

Both Anders are awesome in my opinion. I loved his character evolution.

Same here!

I could see the DA2 Anders clearly on DAA and vice versa, you can see the DAA Anders in a lot of his laid back joking with Varric and Isabella and others. Both stories were very well written. 

[Uccio]

^ Anders became a whiny b*tch in DA2. Annoying as h*ll.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think if there had been subtle hints that Anders may have done the Kaboom, but at the end of Act 3, he denied he had anything to do with it and Meredith told you to decide his fate based on the (little) evidence that was there, then that would have been a great story telling device.

You could have asked yourself "Did Anders do this? Is he lying? Did Justice take over to the point where he doesn't even remember it? Is he being framed by Meredith? By another mage? By someone else completely different?"

Instead, he asks you to partake in the Kaboom and then unabashedly does not deny it. Which reduces him to just another murdering crazy in Kirkwall. Some ambiguity would have gone a long way with that.

[Mr Fixit]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think if there had been subtle hints that Anders may have done the Kaboom, but at the end of Act 3, he denied he had anything to do with it and Meredith told you to decide his fate based on the (little) evidence that was there, then that would have been a great story telling device.

You could have asked yourself "Did Anders do this? Is he lying? Did Justice take over to the point where he doesn't even remember it? Is he being framed by Meredith? By another mage? By someone else completely different?"

Instead, he asks you to partake in the Kaboom and then unabashedly does not deny it. Which reduces him to just another murdering crazy in Kirkwall. Some ambiguity would have gone a long way with that.

One this one we're not in agreement. By concealing the circumstances surrounding the explosion, the whole point would turn out to be a 'whodunit'. Was it Anders? Another mage? Meredith's version of Reichstag?

I rather liked that it was Anders and that he stood up and admitted the whole thing. Getting to know Anders during the course of the game, and being unable to stop him, gives the entire situation an air of tragedy and regret.

Whatever the faults of DA2 may be, and there are many, I feel this is not one of them.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, Anders proudly declaring his guilt, even when I totally agree that Mages are being treated badly, causes me to murder-knife him everytime without the slightest trace of guilt. So I, personally, considered it a very flat choice.

Then again, I did not like the new Anders all that much. He is basically the fantasy embodiment of many personality disorders which, aside from being a real concern and very tragic conditions, still make for very annoying people to be around.

[FaWa]

Anders is amazing compared to 1 dimensional characters such as Isabella, Carver, And Varic (YES he is one dimensional. That one dimension is awesome. ALL characters should have flaws

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr Fixit wrote...

One this one we're not in agreement. By concealing the circumstances surrounding the explosion, the whole point would turn out to be a 'whodunit'. Was it Anders? Another mage? Meredith's version of Reichstag?

That would be terrific.

I rather liked that it was Anders and that he stood up and admitted the whole thing. Getting to know Anders during the course of the game, and being unable to stop him, gives the entire situation an air of tragedy and regret.

It also makes, I think, Anders the main character of the story.  Anders is the one driving the action forward.  With DA2's story as it is, I would rather play Anders than Hawke.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

One this one we're not in agreement. By concealing the circumstances surrounding the explosion, the whole point would turn out to be a 'whodunit'. Was it Anders? Another mage? Meredith's version of Reichstag?

That would be terrific.

In a different story, sure.

I understand what the writers were going for, and I rather like the idea. The point isn't on 'who did it', or even 'why'. They were trying to show that things are falling apart right and left and that even decent men, when pushed far enough, are capable of horrible acts. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter who did it, the tragedy is that it was allowed to happen. Muddying the issue by concealing the perpetrator would, in my opinion, lessen the tragedy, and accentuate the political machinations.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It also makes, I think, Anders the main character of the story.  Anders is the one driving the action forward.  With DA2's story as it is, I would rather play Anders than Hawke.

That's another issue, of course.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It already wasn't tragic, because I didn't care about any of these whiny lunatics at all.

You can't force emotional states on the roleplayer. If his character thinks the event is tragic, then it's tragic. If the character thinks the event is hilarious, then it's hilarious. Trying to evoke a specific emotional response is always going to fail.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It already wasn't tragic, because I didn't care about any of these whiny lunatics at all.

You can't force emotional states on the roleplayer. If his character thinks the event is tragic, then it's tragic. If the character thinks the event is hilarious, then it's hilarious. Trying to evoke a specific emotional response is always going to fail.

Who said anything about invoking a specific emotional response?

[Renmiri1]

Mr Fixit wrote...

I rather liked that it was Anders and that he stood up and admitted the whole thing. Getting to know Anders during the course of the game, and being unable to stop him, gives the entire situation an air of tragedy and regret.

+100 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It already wasn't tragic, because I didn't care about any of these whiny lunatics at all.

You can't force emotional states on the roleplayer. If his character thinks the event is tragic, then it's tragic. If the character thinks the event is hilarious, then it's hilarious. Trying to evoke a specific emotional response is always going to fail.

No it won't. Some responses are pretty straightforward. Some are not.

I guess there are people who would laugh at Old Yeller, but such people would be the abnormally disturbing exception.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Who said anything about invoking a specific emotional response?

You did, indirectly.  You were concerned about lessening the tragedy of the Kaboom event.  But it's not BioWare's place to decide whether that event is tragic.  As such, whether a design change that enhances player agency lessens that tragedy should be of no concern to them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No it won't. Some responses are pretty straightforward. Some are not.

There is no situation where you can reasonably claim that every single person will have exactly the same emotional reaction.

But that, so far, is the requirement of cinematic presentation.

[AmstradHero]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Who said anything about invoking a specific emotional response?

You did, indirectly.  You were concerned about lessening the tragedy of the Kaboom event.  But it's not BioWare's place to decide whether that event is tragic.  As such, whether a design change that enhances player agency lessens that tragedy should be of no concern to them.

For him it was tragic. For me it wasn't a tragedy. It was a big "WTF?!" moment that made me angry. I saw what had happened and knew how and it evoked such anger that I had been used. I as the character had to punish the guilty party despite the other emotions involved. That transgression could not go unpunished.

For me, the event itself wasn't tragic, though I knew there was only one course of action I could take, and I was given that option. That was somewhat tragic, but the game didn't force me to feel that way.

There was no specific emotion forced upon the character/player. There were bounds on how they could react, but the player was given a wide variety of possibilities withn what would be considered normal. Yes, to you, because you can't react in any way imaginable, it means roleplaying is broken forever and can never be fixed.

I maintain that's requesting a style of play so niche that you cater to the less than 1% (and a LOT less) of people who would want to do that. No, you couldn't imagine cackling insanely as the whole thing went down, but I really don't care that I can't play an outwardly deranged and veritably insane character, and neither would the overwhelming and vast majority of the people who play the game.

Note: Here where I am saying "me" that applies equally for me and my FemHawke.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 30 août 2012 - 09:03 .

[Renmiri1]

Sebastian's Hawke - Side with Templars, put Anders head on a pike
Fenris' Hawke - Side with Templars, may let Anders go
Isabella's Hawke - Is halfway to Tevinter and left bloody Templars and Mages figure out stuff aslone
Merril's Hawke - Sides with Mages, asks for Anders help, let him go unscathed after
Avelinne's Hawke - Sides with Mages (or maybe Templars), arrests Anders
Anders' Hawke - Sides with Mages, asks for Anders help, lets him go or follows him

Natural Born Killers Hawke - Would blow up the Chantry herself.. add Kirkwall destruction for giggles
Braveheart Hawke - Moons Templars, gets executed by Meredith but her / his son will rule Kirkwall
Disney Hawke - Sings a peace song and gets them all dancing and singing together
Skyrim Hawke - Fus Roh Dah the whole lot of them, calls Oh'daving to stop the war. Steals and pickpockets all loot, elects herself / himself the new leader of the Circle of Mages

[Sylvius the Mad]

AmstradHero wrote...

There was no specific emotion forced upon the character/player.

I didn't claim there was.  I'm not talking about that, here.

A suggestion was raised that the episode would have been more interesting if Anders hadn't confessed, and the objection to that was that it would have made the moment less tragic.  And, as you point out, the moment wasn't necessarily tragic anyway, so the "less tragic" objection doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Yes, to you, because you can't react in any way imaginable, it means roleplaying is broken forever and can never be fixed.

I wasn't talking about that, here.  I don't understand why you think I was.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 août 2012 - 09:25 .

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A suggestion was raised that the episode would have been more interesting if Anders hadn't confessed, and the objection to that was that it would have made the moment less tragic.  And, as you point out, the moment wasn't necessarily tragic anyway, so the "less tragic" objection doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

What if I said that the question of whodunit would have distracted from the tragic element Bioware was aiming for?  Personally, it was horrifying for my Hawke but I mostly just felt disbelief.  "Really, Anders?  REALLY!?"

[Sylvius the Mad]

The game provides stimulus to which the player character can react. This is a question of whether a whodunit would be more interesting stimulus that watching an NPC do something spectacular.

[Renmiri1]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The game provides stimulus to which the player character can react. This is a question of whether a whodunit would be more interesting stimulus that watching an NPC do something spectacular.

But you have to take sides, and right after getting shocked by the "fireworks" without having a lot of info on whether Orsino or Meredith are right. That was thrilling enough for me at least 

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Who said anything about invoking a specific emotional response?

You did, indirectly.  You were concerned about lessening the tragedy of the Kaboom event.  But it's not BioWare's place to decide whether that event is tragic.  As such, whether a design change that enhances player agency lessens that tragedy should be of no concern to them.

Firstly, we all roleplay in accordance with our PCs. There are infinite Hawkes that found the event tragic, and their players are presumably glad writers didn't turn the kaboom situation into a detective story.

Secondly, and most pertaining to the point I was trying to make, I wasn't even talking about tragedy in the emotional sense. I was having the literary genre in mind, especially Elizabethan revenge play with its themes of abuse of power, corruption, revenge (obviously) and tragedy in the objective sense, of events spiraling out of control resulting in widespread death and destruction.

The game is even structured in three acts, which is pretty common for dramas. Varric the narrator can also be seen as a form of chorus which was usually present in old tragedies to convey information and provide insight to the audience.

On a related note, Corypheus, the name used for the antagonist behind Legacy DLC, was the leader of the chorus in Greek drama. Not directly applicable to my point, but still...

In a nutshell, I found the basic structure and the building blocks of DA2 very appealing in its literary elegance. Unfortunately, the end product provides pretty much the opposite experience.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 31 août 2012 - 12:40 .

[Darth Death]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

If you play Awakenings again, try defending Amarantine at first, then abandoning it and going back to Vigil's keep with Anders in the party. You will see DA2 Anders there.

DA2 Anders is all there on DAA, he just masks it very well with humor.

For the opposite experience, when Anders asks your help on act 3, try choosing the "What aren't you telling me prompt (right after you investigate his proposal). He goes back to DA Awakening Anders and jokes about a lurid dream with a naked Elthina and a glowing cheese wheel. He does that to use humor to prevent you from guessing what he is really up to.

Anders in Awakening: A friendly cat lover that told jokes.:innocent:
Anders in DA2: A derange terrorist that told jokes.  

He never stopped being friendly and he never stopped loving cats, and those were never the most important aspects of his personality.

To me, those aspects of his character were important, but that's merely what I think. AmstradHero did a good job expressing what I felt about Anders fate. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Mr. Fixit...

I wasn't really suggesting a 'whodunit?' type of event. I was suggesting more of a stand-off, where Meredith is calling for someone's head, people are dead in an attack, and Anders is the most likely culprit. Meredith would say something along the lines of 'if you don't kill him for this, I will' despite not having all the facts, other than vague evidence.

There wouldn't be a detective game to find out these clues, you would be put on the spot to kill a possibly innocent man, but who had had a disturbed past and could even be unaware of his own actions. Couple that with the fact that if you don't, Meredith might turn on you and bring the full weight of the Templars on you.

Less mystery, more an intense, on-the-spot, moral gut check.

[Mr Fixit]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Mr. Fixit...

I wasn't really suggesting a 'whodunit?' type of event. I was suggesting more of a stand-off, where Meredith is calling for someone's head, people are dead in an attack, and Anders is the most likely culprit. Meredith would say something along the lines of 'if you don't kill him for this, I will' despite not having all the facts, other than vague evidence.

There wouldn't be a detective game to find out these clues, you would be put on the spot to kill a possibly innocent man, but who had had a disturbed past and could even be unaware of his own actions. Couple that with the fact that if you don't, Meredith might turn on you and bring the full weight of the Templars on you.

Less mystery, more an intense, on-the-spot, moral gut check.

That could've been a great scene as well.