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[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

And Anders actions in that specific city carried weight at that specific point in time because of how events unfolded. If events unfolded differently then any number of different things could have happened. He could have gone to Orlais and killed the Divine. Or to a different city-state. Or whatever.

But the circumstances that allowed Anders to cause his massacre could not be replicated elsewhere. No other city would allow the Knight-Commander of the templars to take the throne, and no other Knight-Commander would have the lyrium idol that ultimately drove her mad. No other Circle would have as many blood mages as Kirkwall, and there are few other places in Thedas where the Veil would be as thin.

In another city, Anders may have simply been dismissed as a madman. Indeed, a mage tries to kill the Divine in Asunder, but the end result is not the death of every mage in the White Spire.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[Renmiri1]

Yeah if things were different they would be different.. Such wisdom!

Your own words tell us that Hawke had a lot more impact outside Ferelden than the Warden, So I don't get it how you are still clinging to the impression Hawke is not "awesome". As awesome as our Warden. At least in my play-through I felt awesome playing both. Pity you can't feel the same and want to put down us who do.

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

The Circle in Ferelden was under tight enough scrutiny that many mages resorted to blood magic. The rebellion there caused the veil to be damaged. And the Rite of Annulment was called for despite the Templars not even knowing what was going on. How is it at likely that nowhere else in Thedas would there be great unrest among Circle mages? 

The templars in Kirkwall were more zealous and oppressive than anywhere else in Thedas, and unlike the rest of the world, the Veil in Kirkwall had been deliberately thinned.

But unrest is only part of the equation. You still need a Meredith to achieve what Anders wanted.

BrotherWarth wrote...

The Warden literally saved the world. Hawke saved a city from Qunari. Hardly the same degree of influence.

While the Warden did save many lives, his actions ultimately preserved the status quo in Thedas. Through his involvement in DA2's storyline, Hawke's actions ended said status quo and changed the world.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 08:04 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Stop making these unfounded declarations like they're facts.

Unfounded, nothing. Even if you ignore the many, many NPCs who say the Circle in Kirkwall is far worse than anywhere else, one need only compare the daily life of mages in Kirkwall to that of Ferelden or the White Spire.

BrotherWarth wrote...

Just protected the status quo? If that's all the Warden did then that's all any any hero ever does.

For the most part, that can be said of most heroes. But not all.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And again, I don't feel that Hawke was at all responsible for what Anders did. Anders was the one did it. You would like to give Hawke the credit for it because you feel Hawke manipulated Anders and the entire city is such a way that Anders had no choice. I think that's nonsense.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Hawke never manipulated Anders into doing anything. But what he did would not have been possible without Hawke's presence in DA2's storyline; it just wouldn't have happened the same way.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 08:29 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

You mean all the people who only know the Kirkwall Circle and have no perspective?

Not all. Grace and Alain were in the Starkhaven Circle before coming to Kirkwall and they both say life is far worse there. In fact, that's what prompted Alain to join Thrask's rebellion.

Grace is not a particularly reliable source of information, but Alain was a good person. When he speaks of the templars' abuses, I believe him.

thats1evildude wrote...

So you are saying events and people were maipulated by Hawke. I'm not saying Hawke was acting knowingly, wringing his hands in dark corners of Kirkwall as the people of Kirkwall dance to his will. I mean it in the sense that he simply forced things to happen and people to act in certain ways through his actions. And I simply don't feel that that is at all the case.

For want of a nail, Brother Warth, the kingdom was lost. By playing a part in the storyline of DA2, Hawke had an effect on it.

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders was filled with wrath and anger. He already started losing control several times throughout the game. Saying that he wouldn't have done what he did if Hawke weren't around or that he would have done the same thing but to minor effect if the Qunari were runnign Kirkwall is nonsense in my mind. He was never going to mellow out because Justice was never going to mellow out. Justice is am embodiment of an ideal. His purpose is to fight injustice.

But he would likely have been killed at the ambush of the Chantry without Hawke's intervention, and even if he did not, his actions were only possible in the context of Kirkwall's political climate in Act 3, which only came as a result of Hawke's role in the events that led up to it.

World War I began with the assassination of  Archduke Franz Ferdinand, but it would incorrect to claim that it was the sole cause of the war.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 09:37 .

[Renmiri1]

thats1evildude wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

You mean all the people who only know the Kirkwall Circle and have no perspective?

Not all. Grace and Alain were in the Starkhaven Circle before coming to Kirkwall and they both say life is far worse there. In fact, that's what prompted Alain to join Thrask's rebellion.

Grace is not a particularly reliable source of information, but Alain was a good person. When he speaks of the templars' abuses, I believe him.

.

Karl and Anders, Samson, Ella, and many more said the same. Even Varric says to Cassandra. Epic boy must have been asleep while playing DA2

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

By your standard everyone involved in anything going on in Kirkwall is just as important as Hawke. Hell, you may as well give Bartrand as much credit for everything as Hawke. Without him Meredith never would have gotten her hands on the idol and gone mad.

Bartrand did play an important role in the events of DA2. But Bartrand could never have recovered the lyrium idol without Hawke; even if he managed to come up with the money he needed for the expedition, it would have stalled in the Deep Roads long before he reached the Primeval Thaig, because Hawke had to find a way around the blockage in the tunnel.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Karl and Anders, Samson, Ella, and many more said the same. Even Varric says to Cassandra.

You are right about Karl and Anders, though by all accounts Ella had only ever been in the Kirkwall Circle and I don't remember Samson commenting on the Kirkwall Circle compared to other Circles.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 11:18 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Oh yeah, I forgot Hawke is the only person in Thedas capable of walking down hallways...

But how many people in Thedas are capable of fighting through hordes of darkspawn, giant spiders and dragons? Varric could not have fought through those monsters on his own; he's an excellent archer, but he's no Hawke.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And shouldn't Anders get the credit for finding the idol? He provided the location of the entrance they used. Hawke just put up some money.

As I said earlier, without Hawke's involvement, Anders would likely have died in the ambush in the Chantry. In any case, he would have little cause to take part in the expedition.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And haven't you been trounced enough to learn your lesson by now?

Seriously, BrotherWarth, you don't need to be a dick in every second post. Just for a change of pace, try going a whole page without being needlessly rude.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 11:26 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Apparenly ****loads considering a mob of nobodies in Act 2 is harder to take down than the Darkspawn and that dragon.

But that's because the game's difficulty scales to your level as a PC. NPCs have no such advantage, and in any case, there's little cause for any such "mob of nobodies" to be in the Deep Roads.

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why would Anders have died? He went full Justice on those Templars.

And was totally ineffective in that fight, which in and of itself is one of the hardest battles of Act 1.

But like I said, without Hawke's assistance, he would have little reason to give Bartrand the maps he needed.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2012 - 11:40 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

You were traveling the deep roads with a mob of nobodies. And how was Justice ineffective in that fight? I remember him fighting just fine and the Templars freaking out. I also remember that battle being just as easy as any other battle in Act 1.

A handful of labourers and scouts, unarmed ones at that. Hawke provided the actual muscle.

As to the difficulty of that fight, Brother Warth, I can only assume that this magical version of DA2 that you played where you got to skip main quests was greatly different than the one I purchased. In my game, it took me about three or four tries to get through that fight in the Chantry, during which Anders was sent flying every time a templar gave him a mean look. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

How would Varric know how bad Circles are? And haven't you been trounced enough to learn your lesson by now?

Ohhh burn!!! I'm sooo trounced.. I'll run away crying now... 

Pu-lease your trolling doesn't even get interesting. 

[thats1evildude]

(Weary sigh)

All right, that's it for me tonight.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 12:07 .

[Renmiri1]

thats1evildude wrote...

But he would likely have been killed at the ambush of the Chantry without Hawke's intervention, and even if he did not, his actions were only possible in the context of Kirkwall's political climate in Act 3, which only came as a result of Hawke's role in the events that led up to it.

World War I began with the assassination of  Archduke Franz Ferdinand, but it would incorrect to claim that it was the sole cause of the war.

Anders + Justice is actually very powerful.. Like massacre a full team of Wardens and Templars powerful, as we see in his short story. 

Still, all he would have done is smear the walls with Templar bloody smoothie, kill Tranquil Karl and leave. The reason he stayed on Kirkwall was because he had a crush on Hawke.

I think a "Hawke-less" Anders would have self destructed in a blaze of glory attacking a Templar tower somewhere, perhaps even Kirkwall.. But in a suicidal way that would be viewed as the isolated act of a possessed mage, not a revolution like we see in DA2

Filament wrote...

Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. If Anders was alone he would have been ripping off templar heads left and right.

I jest, but BioWare companions do have a tendency to be ultra-badasses up until the moment they actually join the party.

 
Literally the case...

And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me,for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when hegives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just me,whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and thewarmth spreads through me.

http://dragonage.bio...racters/anders/ 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 30 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[Merlex]

thats1evildude wrote...

This thread has devolved into trading insults. Unfortunate.

Out of some slim possibility of salvaging the discussion, I will also put forth that Hawke played an essential role in stopping Tarohne's blood mage cult. Had Hawke not followed up on Masha's plea for help, Cullen would likely have been killed by Wilmod.

But even if he somehow survived, Cullen's investigation would have ultimately stalled when he tried to interrogate Idunna; whether Hawke kills Idunna himself or calls on a mage party member to assist him, he's still the only one strong enough to actually resist Idunna's blood magic, at least initially.

Tarohne was barking mad, but she and her fellow maleficars could have wreaked massive damage on the templar order. Templars watch for demonic possession among mages, not their own; imagine what would happen if a dozen or so templars suddenly turned into abominations one night and began slaughtering their comrades. You could have even been looking at another Broken Circle-type scenario like the Warden faced.

You might say "Big whoop if a bunch of templars die", but it would have a major effect on everything that follows. At the very least, the strength of the templars would be greatly diminished by the time that the qunari took over, and since this theoretical scenario doesn't include Hawke, the Arishok's take-over of the city is almost assured.

From there, much unfolds as I stated earlier in the thread: with the city controlled by the qunari, there is no mage-templar conflict in Act 3 and whatever Anders may do is effectively rendered moot.

I'd add in that without Hawk, Aveline would have most likely perished in the wilds. It was Hawk's mother that suggested Kirkwall. So even if Aveline had survived, which is unlikely, i doubt that she would have went to Kirkwall. Captain Jeven's corruption may have not been exposed. The city guard would have been weakened, as well as the templars.

[Merlex]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

You said it yourself, 21 years between WW1 and WW2.

Is not "my rule", it is a matter of definition. If the Warden only saved Ferelden than he didn't save the world.

You can't have it both ways. If the Warden didn't impact the word, he wasn't Epic and mattered little. Hawke in this view mattered a lot more because he/ she was involved in events that affected the entire world of Thedas.

+1 since the Blight was contained in Ferelden and ended so quickly most of Thedas wasnt aware of it so all the Warden actually did was save one nation not the whole world the 5th Blight only affected and impacted Ferelden the mage/templar war affects all of Thedas therefore Hawke is more Epic 

Well, by stopping the Blight in Fereldan, the Warden spared Thedas, thus saving the 'world'.