445 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

thats1evildude wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

IMHO, Meredith and the city guard could have successfully defeated the Qunari but I can understand that many would see that as debateable.

Very debatable. Even if you ignore the fact that the qunari had already slaughtered much of the city guard, Hawke's absence still impacts the battle.

By that point the templars didn't even join the fray.
The Quanri couldn't really hold Kirkwall. There were too few of them. The invasion was doomed to fail before it started. The Arishok new that.

Sister Petrice would have succeeded with her plot in Shepherding Wolves and various subsequent plots; thus, the qunari invasion would have occured a lot sooner. This is bad because, over the years, the qunari forces lost a number of men; if they had tried to take over sooner, they would never have incurred those losses.

Actually, the people would be more ready had Petrice suceeded. Perhaps they would even attack first, thus negating and any advantage the quanri had from their surprise attack.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 août 2012 - 11:35 .

[Fallstar]

Hawke himself didn't do a great deal in DA2. His companions did a fair bit though.

- Isabella has potentially instigated a large scale Qunari invasion
- Anders removed the status quo regarding mages and templars
- Merril nearly finished an Eluvian
- Hawke killed a lot of stuff.

On a more serious note, Hawke's accomplishments:

- Saved Kirkwall and probably the wider Free Marches from the Qunari
- Witnessed the discovery of the Primeval Thaig
- Released Corypheus
- Learns about Qunari sleeper cells
- Killed Malvernis, who was a significant threat.

That said, it doesn't really compare to the Warden. That's not really any fault of Hawke's, merely that he was unfortunate enough to be in DA2's story rather than DAO's. 

To compare, the Warden:

- Is the only being in history to survive slaying an Archdemon
- Kinda killed Flemeth. (Judging by how scared of her the Dalish are, this seems to be quite the feat)
- Fathered a child with the soul of an Old God.
- Decided who became king of the dwarves.
- Saved the only device capable of creating Golems, safeguarding the future of the Dwarves and wider Ferelden from darkspawn. Or, destroyed one of the most evil pieces of technology ever created, depending on your viewpoint.
- Decide who becomes king/queen of Ferelden, or become the King Consort yourself.
- Saved Amaranthine from the awakened darkspawn.
- Became Warden Commander of Ferelden and Amaranthine, became ruler of Amaranthine.
- Witnessed what happened in Amgarrak, and sealed the thaig.
- Went through the Eluvian or didn't.
- Killed a lot of stuff.

As well as all the rest of it, but those are the most noteworthy of the Warden's world changing accomplishements.

If DA3 has us doing more things like DAO, I'll be a happy bunny.

[Adanu]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Everything the Warden does takes places in some backwater country no one cares about. Who cares who is the king of Orzamar? Who cares (besides other Wardens) about a blight that never reached them? Who care that The Warden saved Redcliffe from walking corpses? Only people that live in Ferelden would seriously give two ****s about Bhelen being king of a bunch of recluses.

The only thing significant that the Warden did that other people in Thedas really be interested in would be discovering Andaste's Ashes.
What do you think people are more likely to talk about for years to come: How Hawke started a world wide revolution that crippled one of the most powerful and influential organizations in Thedas or how the Warden picked the next king of Orzamar.

He didn't. It would have happened with or without Hawke.

It would NEVER had happened without Hawke.

WIthout Hawke, Bartrands convoy would never have gotten off the ground.

WIthout Hawke, The Qunari invasion would have been a lot bloodier than it was and lasted far longer and probably would have had the QUnari invading half the free marshes. WIthout Hawke, the Idol would never have gotten pulled out of the deep roads and there is a good chance Meredith wouldn't have gone insane.

Your bias against DA2 doesn't change these facts.

[Teddie Sage]

Adanu is right.

Haters will always find reasons to hate this game, but personally, I think Hawke had its place in Thedas' history and made it possible for all his companions to do so many things that influenced the world.

[The Elder King]

Teddie Sage wrote...

Adanu is right.

Haters will always find reasons to hate this game, but personally, I think Hawke had its place in Thedas' history and made it possible for all his companions to do so many things that influenced the world.

I agree that he has it place in the history of Thedas. Though he isn't "the most important person in Dragon Age". While I know that 90% of the marketing is BS, I was expecting something bigger from Hawke. And I'd say that Anders has a similar importance, if not greater, of Hawke in Thedas (and I'm saying this despite the fact I didn't like Anders in DA2).
There is a sign, though, that in Thedas people accounted Hawke a greater role. From the dialogue between Cassandra and Varric right after the start of the DR expediction, it's evident that Cassandra thought that Hawke was more involved in triggering the war between mages and templars, and that he was planning something since his first year in Kirkwall. We don't know if this is the Chantry's speculation or the common knowledge about Hawke in Thedas.

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

- Saved Kirkwall and probably the wider Free Marches from the Qunari

Adanu wrote...

WIthout Hawke, The Qunari invasion would have been a lot bloodier than it was and lasted far longer and probably would have had the QUnari invading half the free marshes.

That's not at all possible. It was one boat of Qunari with no support.

Qunary forced conversion of prisioners to the Qun would boost their numbers immensely. And there were voluntary Qun converts already

hhh89 wrote...

** snip **

.. I'd say that Anders has a similar importance, if not greater, of Hawke in Thedas (and I'm saying this despite the fact I didn't like Anders in DA2).
There is a sign, though, that in Thedas people accounted Hawke a greater role. From the dialogue between Cassandra and Varric right after the start of the DR expediction, it's evident that Cassandra thought that Hawke was more involved in triggering the war between mages and templars, and that he was planning something since his first year in Kirkwall. We don't know if this is the Chantry's speculation or the common knowledge about Hawke in Thedas.

 

Anders was possessed by Justice and deeply in love with Hawke (even if not romanced) so in a way "possessed" by Hawke as well. He stays on Kirkwall to be with Hawke and he waits 7 years to blow things up  thanks to Hawke's  support / friendship. 

IMHO Anders would self destruct without Hawke as his codex says in Act 3, Hawke is the only reason he is still sane. Justice / Vengenace has no concept of tactics or prudence and no mercy or measure. Odds are a Justice dominated Anders would do a poorly planned frontal attack to templars on a Circle somewhere in Thedas and die at the attack, while transformed in an abomination(*) . Even if not transformed, a possessed Anders would probably be confused with your run of the mill demon possessed blood mage and have no impact at all in the mage x templar debate. He would be another Tahrone or Decimus.

Hawke helps Anders keep Justice/ Vengenace bottled up long enough for Anders to do a politically significant, well planned and efficiently executed tactical attack to templars (**). Justice would have no such finesse.


(*) Anders + Justice can shapeshift into something invulnerable to swords, i imagine a harvester or something similar, see his short story.
(**) - Ya I know, fancy name for a terrorist attack on the Chantry, but I wanted to emphasyze the fact that the target choice, the way / time it was exploded and everything about the attack was done with the goal of calling attention to the templar/ mage conflict. It was a well planned tactical strike. Abhorrent of course, but well planned.

PS: Dragon Age Asunder mentions Anders, not Hawke. It is probably because Gaider doesn't know the name of our Hawke's but still is funny that the name remembered is Anders 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 30 août 2012 - 05:02 .

[thats1evildude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By that point the templars didn't even join the fray.
The Quanri couldn't really hold Kirkwall. There were too few of them. The invasion was doomed to fail before it started. The Arishok knew that.

Hawke fights along a small group of templars if you choose to follow Meredith's plan and storm the keep rather than use the distraction. And it's strongly implied that Meredith and the templars were fighting back qunari while Hawke was dueling the Arishok.

Qunari are also considerably stronger fighters than your average human or elf. If they had been more numerous, their invasion would stand a lot better chance of succeeding.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, the people would be more ready had Petrice suceeded. Perhaps they would even attack first, thus negating and any advantage the quanri had from their surprise attack.

That could be the case, but I don't put much stock in the anti-qunari insurgents. They're certainly very apt at murdering helpless people like Seamus or defenceless combatants like the qunari delegates, but I doubt they'd be much help in the actual battle.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 05:40 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Everything and everyone is important to the world and reality.

You can't take out anything, as it would change all the events - take out Mabari, that would otherwise killed a bandit, that would otherwise killed a trader that sells poison cures, and in 5 years later poison kills King Alistair, because the trader was dead and castle healer couldn't replenish his stock. Alistair's death, without a heir, starts civil war for the throne, which will disintegrated Ferelden into small factions, all of which would eventually be consumed by coming blight, killing millions of people.

Was that Mabari important or not?

In Dragon Age, Hawke is deciding his support to either Chantry or Qunari, and eventually to Templars or Mages. Do you think anything of this can have lesser impact? Sparing Arishok, might cause destruction of entire Tevinter Imperium, while killing him, could give Imperium a chance to strike at the Qunari. Siding with Chantry, Petrice could lead an exalted march, onto either Imperium , Elves or Qunari, afecting millions of lives. Siding with Templars can create precedense that all mages are dangerous and should be instantly put down - creating a genocide war on mages. While siding with mages can grant them more power, can give them enough incitive to rise up against Chantry and Templars, which if they would eventually overthrow they could rebuild the old Tevinter Imperium, ruled by mages and stretching all across the Thedas continent.

How is Hawke not important please?

Modifié par Chaos Lord Malek, 30 août 2012 - 06:47 .

[Sylvianus]

Qunari Rebellion =/ Qunari invasion.

One hundred Qunari locked and monitored in an area of ​​the lower town of Kirkwall.

Meredith, the templars, Orsino, the circle (thousand mages) would eventually crush them in the end. Hawk only prevented the nobles to be killed, has simply reduced the number of deaths. It's really an exaggeration to say that without him, the city would not have been saved.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Renmiri1]

Think the circle is more like 200 mages.. Dunno saw those figures somewhere.

And why would the Alienage protect nobles ? Some of them were already converting to the Qun voluntarily.. They even fight Hawke, siding with the Qunari
The Carta ? Merchants guild ? As long as they could make coin, they would support any ruler. Carta people actually battle Hawke and help Qunari.

[Sylvianus]

If I remember well, according to the lore in DAII, it is simply said the circle of Kirkwall contains thousands of mages. No figures. ( not sure though ) And I guess it would take a roughly equal number of Templars to monitor them.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 07:52 .

[thats1evildude]

Sylvianus wrote...

One hundred Qunari locked and monitored in an area of ​​the lower town of Kirkwall.

Meredith, the templars, Orsino, the circle (thousand mages) would eventually crush them in the end. Hawk only prevented the nobles to be killed, has simply reduced the number of deaths. It's really an exaggeration to say that without him, the city would not have been saved.

There were actually several hundred qunari when they first arrived. The viscount says so himself. Not a particularly massive force, but when you consider the strength of each individual qunari and their advanced technology, it's no small wonder that nearly everyone is terrified of the qunari's intentions.

And they were not "locked" in the lower town of Kirkwall. They were given their own area of the Docks to placate them. This is stated outright in the game.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 08:04 .

[Sylvianus]

thats1evildude wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

One hundred Qunari locked and monitored in an area of ​​the lower town of Kirkwall.

Meredith, the templars, Orsino, the circle (thousand mages) would eventually crush them in the end. Hawk only prevented the nobles to be killed, has simply reduced the number of deaths. It's really an exaggeration to say that without him, the city would not have been saved.

There were actually several hundred qunari when they first arrived. The viscount says so himself. Not a particularly massive force, but when you consider the strength of each individual qunari and their advanced technology, it's no small wonder that nearly everyone is terrified of the qunari's intentions.

And they were not "locked" in the lower town of Kirkwall. They were given their own area of the Docks to placate them.

Actually, Varric said exactly one hundred when they first arrived, telling his story to Cassandra. Who's right ? It seems the writers didn't know exactly how many they were lol.

As the Viscount, he was a pacifist frightened by anything anyways, I wouldn't be surprise if it were just an exaggeration. He overestimated the strength of the enemy when he had a manifest superiority. Kirkwall was just taken by surprise. This is why there have been so many deaths. Incompetence unnamed. He would have had no problem crushing them, if he had taken the initiative. He was just blinded by his ideals of peace at the beginning, even when it was obvious it wouldn't work between them.

And they " were given " their own area ( so locked since they couldn't go anywhere else in the city ) of the docks because it was easier to monitor them too for Kirkwall.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 08:17 .

[thats1evildude]

Sylvianus wrote...

Actually, Varric said exactly one hundred when they first arrived, telling his story to Cassandra. Who's right ? It seems the writers didn't know exactly how many they were lol.

Sorry, Sylvianus, but I am. Go to 7:49 of this video. Varric's exact words are:

"A great storm caught their ship and left hundreds of warriors stranded in the city, waiting to return home."

Sylvianus wrote...

As the Viscount, he was a pacifist frightened by anything anyways, I wouldn't be surprise if it were just an exaggeration. He overestimated the strength of the enemy when he had a manifest superiority. Kirkwall was just taken by surprise. This is why there have been so many deaths. Incompetence unnamed. He would have had no problem crushing them, if he had taken the initiative. He was just blinded by his ideals of peace at the beginning, even when it was obvious it wouldn't work between them.

I don't think the problem was that the viscount was afraid of getting his hands dirty — he's certainly willing to hide evidence that the qunari delegates had been tortured and murdered. He just didn't have the proper resources to expel the qunari; the city guard was too weak and the templars would not intervene unless the qunari actually started something.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
WIthout Hawke, The Qunari invasion would have been a lot bloodier than it was and lasted far longer and probably would have had the QUnari invading half the free marshes. WIthout Hawke, the Idol would never have gotten pulled out of the deep roads and there is a good chance Meredith wouldn't have gone insane.

Your bias against DA2 doesn't change these facts.

Except your facts are wrong.

The quanri invasion couldn't suceed. It was just one ship worth of qunari. They used surprise to storm the keep, but once the majority of the army, the templars and the mages joined the fray, they were toast.

As for Meredith...who knows. That one is a lot harder to predict, for Meredith was apparently rather wonky even before the idol. Would the idol have been pulled out? Who knows? without knowing who would have taken Hawkes place it's impossible to tell.

[Sylvianus]

thats1evildude wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Actually, Varric said exactly one hundred when they first arrived, telling his story to Cassandra. Who's right ? It seems the writers didn't know exactly how many they were lol.

Sorry, Sylvianus, but I am. Go to 7:49 of this video. Varric's exact words are:

"A great storm caught their ship and left hundreds of warriors stranded in the city, waiting to return home."

Sylvianus wrote...

As the Viscount, he was a pacifist frightened by anything anyways, I wouldn't be surprise if it were just an exaggeration. He overestimated the strength of the enemy when he had a manifest superiority. Kirkwall was just taken by surprise. This is why there have been so many deaths. Incompetence unnamed. He would have had no problem crushing them, if he had taken the initiative. He was just blinded by his ideals of peace at the beginning, even when it was obvious it wouldn't work between them.

I don't think the problem was that the viscount was afraid of getting his hands dirty — he's certainly willing to hide evidence that the qunari delegates had been tortured and murdered. He just didn't have the proper resources to expel the qunari; the city guard was too weak and the templars would not intervene unless the qunari actually started something.

1 - In my native language, Varric says exactly one hundred Qunari. I knew it was a bit strange lol. What a mess. That's why there should be always the english option in each Bioware's game. Okay, thanks.

2 - I do not think it's a question of resources, but the cost to pay to achieve his ends. As you said, the qunari are powerful and losses would surely have been many, although the victory was entirely possible. It is this perspective that has frightened and pushed the Viscount into a logical desperate for peace. He remains a politician, frightened, and he has only hidden the evidences about the qunari delegates just because he wanted to save the peace. It had nothing to do with the courage or someone able to make some difficult choices or getting his hands dirty. Then it is true that there was the problem of mages which added to his confusion. In other words he didn't want blood on his hands.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 08:48 .

[Renmiri1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...
WIthout Hawke, The Qunari invasion would have been a lot bloodier than it was and lasted far longer and probably would have had the QUnari invading half the free marshes. WIthout Hawke, the Idol would never have gotten pulled out of the deep roads and there is a good chance Meredith wouldn't have gone insane.

Your bias against DA2 doesn't change these facts.

Except your facts are wrong.

The quanri invasion couldn't suceed. It was just one ship worth of qunari. They used surprise to storm the keep, but once the majority of the army, the templars and the mages joined the fray, they were toast.

As for Meredith...who knows. That one is a lot harder to predict, for Meredith was apparently rather wonky even before the idol. Would the idol have been pulled out? Who knows? without knowing who would have taken Hawkes place it's impossible to tell.

Two wardens and a Sten stopped an Archdemon 

Well trained military troops can fight a lot better than a civil Guard armed and trained to deal with a few smugglers, not a real attack force.

[thats1evildude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The quanri invasion couldn't suceed. It was just one ship worth of qunari.

One dreadnought of qunari.This wasn't any old paddleboat.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They used surprise to storm the keep, but once the majority of the army, the templars and the mages joined the fray, they were toast.

What army? Kirkwall has no army. It has a city guard, but no army. And the qunari had already mopped the floor with them.

The battle against the qunari only turned because of Hawke's presence. You forget that when Hawke arrived in HIghtown, Orsino had already been knocked unconscious while fighting the qunari and most of his mages had been killed. Meredith and Orsino only distract/stall the qunari to give Hawke time to enter the keep.

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not think it's a question of resources, but the cost to pay to achieve his ends. As you said, the qunari are powerful and losses would surely have been many, although the victory was entirely possible. It is this perspective that has frightened and pushed the Viscount into a logical desperate for peace.

Yes, that's what I meant. The viscount recognized that, even if they managed to beat the qunari, it would be a pyrrhic victory and Kirkwall would be devastated.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 09:14 .

[Heimdall]

The Qunari would have killed Orsino had Hawke not been there. Meredith might have been able to rally the Templars, but the whole result of he battle is debatable without Hawke present.

[Sylvianus]

thats1evildude wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I do not think it's a question of resources, but the cost to pay to achieve his ends. As you said, the qunari are powerful and losses would surely have been many, although the victory was entirely possible. It is this perspective that has frightened and pushed the Viscount into a logical desperate for peace.

Yes, that's what I meant. The viscount recognized that, even if they managed to beat the qunari, it would be a pyrrhic victory and Kirkwall would be devastated.

That's what he thought, for sure. But I don't think so, not that far. A man frightened. The Qunari aren't invincible at all, they fear magic, Kirkwall contains mages and templars + Kirkwall's guards.

The Qunari had lost their weapons and equipment in the storm. That is why the majority of those that you see in the game were simply half naked. The templars are specialists in martial arts, they are heavily equipped and heavily armed while the Qunari weren't, disciplined, besides faith guides them in an unwavering commitment. They are not weak fighters. Let's try not to exaggerate the power of the Qunari simply to highlight the importance of Hawk. 

The Qunari had no heavy logistics either.

Like I said, they used the surprise, that's why it sucked so much for Kirkwall. Any army weaker than the other one has better chances to succeed with the surprise and that's what happened.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 09:56 .

[thats1evildude]

By the same token, you shouldn't downplay the qunari's strength in trying to dismiss Hawke's role in the battle. Remember, the qunari once fought all of Thedas to a standstill despite being vastly outnumbered, and the Tevinter Imperium has never accomplished anything more over decades of battle with the qunari than to simply annoy them.

A half-naked qunari warrior is still far more dangerous than the average human, and they have access to weapons that the rest of Thedas does not. Also, their mages can be just as dangerous as those trained in the Circle.

And as I said earlier, the city would have been far weaker by the time the qunari took over if Hawke had not been present during the course of DA2.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 10:20 .

[Sylvianus]

thats1evildude wrote...

By the same token, you shouldn't downplay the qunari's strength in trying to dismiss Hawke's role in the battle. Remember, the qunari once fought all of Thedas to a standstill despite being vastly outnumbered, and the Tevinter Imperium has never accomplished anything more over decades of battle with the qunari than to simply annoy them.

A half-naked qunari warrior is still far more dangerous than the average human, and they have access to weapons that the rest of Thedas does not. Also, their mages can be just as dangerous as those trained in the Circle.

And as I said earlier, the city would have been far weaker by the time the qunari took over if Hawke had not been present during the course of DA2.

I'm just looking at what is the the current situation and not the past and the legends like you do. This is what I feel when I am reading you. You are talking about a war where the Qunari were as many as the humans and at their best. They were at that time heavily armed, better equipped than the humans, they were supported by heavy logistics and artillery, better technology and better weapons. They were the ones who hit first too against the humans totally suprised. And during the war, they used poison which especially weakened the humans. Yes the poison almost did the work for them. This is why it was so hard. Also they weren't alone at all, they had many allies at their side.  ( And I don't  believe they were so much outnumbered  ) During the battle, humans also fought very well and defeated them several times actually. 

Now let's check the facts with Kirkwall.  Qunari half naked, no heavy logistics, small army, no poison to help them. No better technology, no better weapons, actually they don't have anything. And yes a Qunari halk naked is still dangerous but we are not talking about average humans. We are talking about an army which would contain mages and templars. I'm sorry but that doesn't hold water to treat the Qunari ( those we see in Kirkwall ) like you do in my opinion.

I don't care about Hawk actually, but I do care to reduce the effects of what I perceive as a legend to justify something. The Qunari are strong, but no they aren't some special gods almost invincible.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 août 2012 - 10:51 .

[coles4971]

All this talk about invincible Qunari makes me wish we actually saw that in game.

All I saw were some dudes throwing spears and getting turned in to lego bricks by my countless AoE attacks.

[thats1evildude]

Sylvianus wrote...

I'm just looking at what is the the current situation and not the past and the legends like you do. This is what I feel when I am reading you. You are talking about a war where the Qunari were as many as the humans and at their best.

No, they weren't. From the Codex on Par Vollen - The Occupied North:

The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings.

Although magic has always been humanity's greatest advantage in the battle with the qunari, they are still outnumbered.

Sylvianus wrote...

They were at that time heavily armed, better equipped than the humans, they were supported by heavy logistics and artillery, better technology and better weapons.

Where do you get the idea that they were better armed and better equipped? It's true that their cannons gave them an advantage in the Qunari wars, but that's when it came to be-sieging cities. I've never seen anything that suggests qunari are better at making armour and weapons than humans.

Sylvianus wrote...

Now let's check the facts with Kirkwall.  Qunari half naked, no heavy logistics, small army, no poison to help them. No better technology, no better weapons, actually they don't have anything.

They actually did have saar-qamek at their disposal, but no matter. They still could have taken over the city without it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 août 2012 - 11:14 .