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[thats1evildude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm jsut saiyng that it impossible know how things would turn out. Butterfly effect.

What I am saying thet Cullen, Aveline and a few templars wouldn't have changed the odds significantly.
The Quanri were SEVERELY outnumbered.

I counted far more human corpses at the end of Act 2 than qunari dead. Outnumbered or not, the qunari were whipping the s**t out of Kirkwall's defenders. Losses incurred by the templars could have a huge impact on the battle, as could the absence of a few key figures.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And even if you think he was just as crucial to the mage/Templar conflict as Anders(which I don't see at all) it's not as big a deal as the Fifth Blight since DA3 will apparently revolve around a new crisis and not the mage/Templar conflict. So really all DA2 apparently did was set up the events of Asunder and not DA3.

If what we've heard is true, the mage/templar conflict is part of that new crisis. As Hawke's actions allow the Mage/Templar War to occur, then he's still very important to the Dragon Age universe.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[Merlex]

BrotherWarth wrote...

You probably have a better memory of it than I do, but did they say in DA2 or the Legacy DLC that Tevinter magisters caused the damage to the veil in Kirkwall? I recall them saying something about what happened but I can't recall if it was that or if it had something to do with all the suffering endured by slaves or if they kept it vague.

I don't remember if it was in game or something i read; but i do remember something about the Tevinter Magisters causing damage to the veil.

[thats1evildude]

The Band of Three codex indicates that the magisters deliberately thinned the Veil in Kirkwall to the point that even non-mages can be possessed in certain parts of the city.

It is also theorized in Legacy that Corypheus was somehow exerting influence over the city, though there's nothing to back that up.

[thats1evildude]

There are two versions of the leaked plot summary: one that emphasizes the Mage/Templar war and one that mentions demons running amok. If the Veil is torn, it's likely the result of said war, plus all of the other conflicts that are going on.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 septembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I think so!

[Cygnus x1]

It was a Dragon Age refugee story.
To me it was a different path still set in DA universe but really nothing to do with origons,or the charactors of origons, only cameo's very short almost irrelevant appearances of the origonal characters alot of people expected.

DA2 on its own and not a sequel to DAO is a fun well made game.but lost all the charm & Depth of DAO,companion relations also seemed watered down and less important.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Merlex wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm jsut saiyng that it impossible know how things would turn out. Butterfly effect.

What I am saying thet Cullen, Aveline and a few templars wouldn't have changed the odds significantly.
The Quanri were SERVERLY outnumbered.

I've been arguing the butterfly effect all along. Take Hawk out and it changes a lot of variables. With Hawk there, the Viscount said that the Qunari would wreck half the city.

Switch out Aveline for Jeven, add in Tarohne's plot, and Kirkwall would have it's hands full. Hawk was just in the right place at the right time, several times. Small actions adding upto big effects. That's what the writters intended.

Figure of speech. The qunari didn't stand a chacne.
Of course, we are talking about 100 giants, so even tough their defeat was certain, they can do significant damage before they go down - especially since they are already inside the city walls.


The response time is the big problem (and always will be). the city is huge. The city guards are spread all over, the templars and mages are in another part of town completely. Meanwhile, the quanri are are in one large group.

You could replace 100 qunari with100 regular soldeirs, and it would still be trouble.
But it was a battle the qunari couldn't win.

[jbrand2002uk]

That link in brotherwrath's last post sounds epic shame the person who put it there is impossible to please

[jbrand2002uk]

double post due to lag 

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 05 septembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Adanu]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Seriously people, stop treating the Kossith like the supermen of Thedas. They're just bigger than humans and utilize foreign strategy. They are not unstoppable, they are not superpowered, and they are not designed to be the perfect city-sacking machines. They are just as vulnerable and capable of failure of every other race in Thedas. The Emperium has been beating them for a long time.

YOu underestimate them by a large amount.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

It takes TWO FULL AGES AND TWO EXALTED MARCHES to push the Qunari back... and it's majorly implied by Sten from Dragon Age Origins that they simply wanted a breather to recover their losses for a bit. There is no stalemate here, and the Imperium itself is likely not in a very good position in any respect after that long at war.

Fact is, Qunari managed to wage war on the rest of the Thedas continent for two full ages. You don't do that without major military strength.

[Face of Evil]

Fenris himself mentions that the qunari could easily conquer the Tevinter Imperium if they wished. They are simply holding back their strength to build up a massive fleet.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Seriously people, stop treating the Kossith like the supermen of Thedas. They're just bigger than humans and utilize foreign strategy. They are not unstoppable, they are not superpowered, and they are not designed to be the perfect city-sacking machines. They are just as vulnerable and capable of failure of every other race in Thedas. The Emperium has been beating them for a long time.

YOu underestimate them by a large amount.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

It takes TWO FULL AGES AND TWO EXALTED MARCHES to push the Qunari back... and it's majorly implied by Sten from Dragon Age Origins that they simply wanted a breather to recover their losses for a bit. There is no stalemate here, and the Imperium itself is likely not in a very good position in any respect after that long at war.

Fact is, Qunari managed to wage war on the rest of the Thedas continent for two full ages. You don't do that without major military strength.

You'd be surprised. History teaches, but people don't listen.
Take a look at the crusades. Europe was far from weak, but the crusades never did go very far...why? Because it wasn't as unified with a single goal as the Ottoman empire and as soon as one islamic army was crushed, the rulers would get back to their squabbling and petty disputes...untill another army came.

So really - it doesn't take far superior military strength to wage a war with a continent - it takes a fracutred and disinterested enemy.

And btw - the qunai in Kirkwall hardly had major military strength

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Seriously people, stop treating the Kossith like the supermen of Thedas. They're just bigger than humans and utilize foreign strategy. They are not unstoppable, they are not superpowered, and they are not designed to be the perfect city-sacking machines. They are just as vulnerable and capable of failure of every other race in Thedas. The Emperium has been beating them for a long time.

YOu underestimate them by a large amount.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

It takes TWO FULL AGES AND TWO EXALTED MARCHES to push the Qunari back... and it's majorly implied by Sten from Dragon Age Origins that they simply wanted a breather to recover their losses for a bit. There is no stalemate here, and the Imperium itself is likely not in a very good position in any respect after that long at war.

Fact is, Qunari managed to wage war on the rest of the Thedas continent for two full ages. You don't do that without major military strength.

You'd be surprised. History teaches, but people don't listen.
Take a look at the crusades. Europe was far from weak, but the crusades never did go very far...why? Because it wasn't as unified with a single goal as the Ottoman empire and as soon as one islamic army was crushed, the rulers would get back to their squabbling and petty disputes...untill another army came.

So really - it doesn't take far superior military strength to wage a war with a continent - it takes a fracutred and disinterested enemy.

And btw - the qunai in Kirkwall hardly had major military strength

CHerrypicking real life history and ignoring in game facts doesn't make you right. It makes you look you're only taking the parts of the whole that seemingly work in your favor out of context.

Fact is, The Qunari are a major military force. If they were not, Thedas would have kicked them off their islands ages ago.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
CHerrypicking real life history and ignoring in game facts doesn't make you right. It makes you look you're only taking the parts of the whole that seemingly work in your favor out of context.

Fact is, The Qunari are a major military force. If they were not, Thedas would have kicked them off their islands ages ago.

Missing the point, are we?
And who is taking things out of context now?

The Qunari holding the island is not proof of their amazing superiority (as there can be a whole aray of reasons to why they managed to hold it).
And while the qunari are a potent military force, I fail to see how it applies to Kirkwall, where they defiantely weren't that.

[Ianamus]

Hawke is very important, and I think that when you actually think about it had he not been there many things would have happened very differently. 

For one, Flemeth would not have been revived, or would have needed to find another way to be revived. Hawke may have helped her far more gratly than we realsied, or made her plans a lot easier to accomplish. 

He/she made defeating the Qunari a lot easier than it would have been otherwise. Had he/she not been there Aveline would not have become leader of the guard either, making them weaker, and more templars/guards would have died to common thieves/blood mages. The more desperate situation would have led to more help from the circle of magi, giving them better standing amongst the citizens and forcing Meredith and Orsino to work together more, potentially improving relations.

He/she found the Lyrium idol, which later drove Meredith insane. Had Hawke not been there the expedition may have failed, since not only did he/she do a lot of the fighting but also raised a lot of money for it. 

FInally had they not been there to introduce Anders to Varric and provide his own support, Anders would probably have been captured by the circle. It was only through his contacts with Hawke and Varric that he managed to stay outside of templar control long enough to form the plan to destroy the Chantry, igniting the mage/templar war. If Hawke helps him in Act 3 he/she even helps him obtain the explosive materials required. 

Had Hawke not been there it is unlikely the Mage/Templar war would have ever started in Kirkwall. It's also a bit sad to think that had Hawke never existed things might have turned out much better for the world, but I suppose thats the way things go. 

Modifié par EJ107, 06 septembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Heimdall]

Whether or not the Qunari would have won is irrelevant to the question. If Hawke hadn't been there, the nobility would be dead, Orsino would be dead, and the whole situation would have been much messier. Bartrand's expedition would have never happened, so Meredith's madness may never have manifested, without

Fact is, without Hawke, the events of Act 3 may never have come to a head and the unrest it didn't triggered may have never allowed the events of Asunder to pan out as they did. So, in a round about way, Hawke really did start the Mage-Templar war, though not deliberatedly.

[Face of Evil]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course, we are talking about 100 giants, so even tough their defeat was certain, they can do significant damage before they go down - especially since they are already inside the city walls.

I just wanna note that if you complete Mark of the Assassin before the end of Act 2, Hawke notes in his journal that there are several hundred qunari, not just one hundred.

[Realmzmaster]

Face of Evil wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course, we are talking about 100 giants, so even tough their defeat was certain, they can do significant damage before they go down - especially since they are already inside the city walls.

I just wanna note that if you complete Mark of the Assassin before the end of Act 2, Hawke notes in his journal that there are several hundred qunari, not just one hundred.

If I am not wrong Isabela said that she was being chased by a Qunari dreadnought (battleship size). The crew size could be close to 400 or more.

[Realmzmaster]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course, we are talking about 100 giants, so even tough their defeat was certain, they can do significant damage before they go down - especially since they are already inside the city walls.

I just wanna note that if you complete Mark of the Assassin before the end of Act 2, Hawke notes in his journal that there are several hundred qunari, not just one hundred.

If I am not wrong Isabela said that she was being chased by a Qunari dreadnought (battleship size). The crew size could be close to 400 or more.

You're comparing a primitive wooden ship to a modern steel craft. It's hard to imagine any battle-class ship made of wood that would be large enough to handle 400 Kossith. Wooden ships that large were for transport, not battle. They're too large to be fast enough or maneuverable enough for battle.

 Not talking modern vessels British man o war (first rate vessels Ship of the Line also called battleship class)  had more than 750 men as its complement. First appearing in the 1600's made of wood. There was also the Adler von Lubeck German war galleon built in 1566 carried 1000 men (350 man crew and 650 marines). 
The HMS Revenge (used by Sir Francis Drake)  built in 1577 had a crew of 300.

Roman warships like the Deceres which was a dreadnought had 572 rowers, 30 sailors and 250 marines.

[thats1evildude]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Whether or not the Qunari would have won is irrelevant to the question. If Hawke hadn't been there, the nobility would be dead, Orsino would be dead, and the whole situation would have been much messier. Bartrand's expedition would have never happened, so Meredith's madness may never have manifested, without

Fact is, without Hawke, the events of Act 3 may never have come to a head and the unrest it didn't triggered may have never allowed the events of Asunder to pan out as they did. So, in a round about way, Hawke really did start the Mage-Templar war, though not deliberatedly.

That's what I keep saying.