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[Alexander1136]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Alexander1136 wrote...

 There was a whole thing on this when DA2 came out due to claims that he would "change the world" or "be the most important person in thedas" I called BS due to the fact that main story wise he was just along for the ride and his choices didn't matter.  

The warden has the OGB, beat flemeth in dragon form, saved/slaughted elves, defeated a tower full of demons, escaped the fade, stopped two civil wars ect. While the DLC for hawke adds some interesting angles with potential and his bloodline but they are   "done with da2" and seeing as we are getting a new protaganist i would imagine hawke is basically done as well. 

I feel like the warden is awesome and a huge influence in the realm of thedas, whenever I play dragon age I don't feel like me unless I'm my warden. 

A lot of people feel this way

Problem is.. How can you feel like that again, after you ended the blight ? You need a new blight to feel epic ? Another civil war ? Crowning another king on an ancient kingdom ? Discovering another sacred relic ?

You are in luck, it seems Orlais is going into civil war after Asunder and Hawke and Anders started the Mage / Templar war. Also it seems someone tore the veils all over Thedas so we will not have a blight with an army of darkspawn comming from the ground but we will have an army of demons pouring from the veil rips.. I'm sure the writers will cook up some sacred relic for us to find and a king for us to crown too.

To me is a bit repetitive but meh..

If I get some nice well written nuanced characters and I get to see some cameos from Hawke and his gang, I'm a happy camper. 

Yeah, they did that whole thing with darkspawn worshipers in wardens fall that I thought was cool, also the talking darkspawn angle and the dlc in da2 brought in some really interesting aspect to the lore of darkspawn. I would love to explore those more as a warden (in a dream world a party of my warden, morrigan, our kid, and my dog but that's not likely to happen. ) also the whole thing sandal mentioned about the magic returning and then in the comic morrigan sister mentioned something about the world before the veil ... so you know epic monumental stuff like that catches my attention.

something of a larger scope than the petty BS hawke did. seriously he didn't do a single thing that was remotly impressive. beat the arishok?? really? woopdy frigin doo? I liked the arishok, story wise i wanted to join him, everyone in that city pissed me the hell off. 

Orlais seems kinda lame imo, but we'll see when we get there if I have tendencies to ram spears throughs theie voice wholes when the talk. Something that requires me to define my character in a complex way( hawke had 3 personalities the warden had wayy more.) and allow me to really get to know my companions/rivals build relationships with everyone and really become invested into the story and then place it on a large scale with actual meaning.  

As far as the original question was Hawke important? Yes, his presence was a catalyst though he didn't directly do anything but he did influence the war to start a little earlier than it did. 

[thats1evildude]

Most of Hawke's accomplishments mirror that of the Warden's. Both slew a high dragon, a varterral, a Harvester, numerous abominations and demons, darkspawn, golems, blood mages, Carta dwarves, bandits, giant spiders, brontos and deepstalkers.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Han Shot First]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Everything the Warden does takes places in some backwater country no one cares about. Who cares who is the king of Orzamar? Who cares (besides other Wardens) about a blight that never reached them? Who care that The Warden saved Redcliffe from walking corpses? Only people that live in Ferelden would seriously give two ****s about Bhelen being king of a bunch of recluses.

The only thing significant that the Warden did that other people in Thedas really be interested in would be discovering Andaste's Ashes.
What do you think people are more likely to talk about for years to come: How Hawke started a world wide revolution that crippled one of the most powerful and influential organizations in Thedas or how the Warden picked the next king of Orzamar.

Blights don't stay contained to single countries.

In fact the Blight the player's Warden stops was unique in that the Archdemon was defeated before the Blight could spill out into other lands. All of the prior Blights involved multiple nations, and the first and second saw whole swaths of Thedas laid to waste.

If the player's Warden had failed the Blight would have spilled out from Ferelden into Orlais or the Free Marches, and it would have continued expanding until either the Archdemon was slain or all of Thedas was destroyed.

The Warden is arguably the most important protagonist in the series thus far because he or she not only saved Ferelden, but potentially the entire region from ruin. Depending on choices made in Awakening he or she may have also prevented future Blights.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course, we are talking about 100 giants, so even tough their defeat was certain, they can do significant damage before they go down - especially since they are already inside the city walls.

I just wanna note that if you complete Mark of the Assassin before the end of Act 2, Hawke notes in his journal that there are several hundred qunari, not just one hundred.

If I am not wrong Isabela said that she was being chased by a Qunari dreadnought (battleship size). The crew size could be close to 400 or more.

That's still not much.
Especially considering that they lost part of the crew when their ship broke, then part to defection and the general squabbles during the time they were in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is huge..Rome had a million people. I reckon Kirkwall has AT LEAST a quarter of that.
So that's  hunderds of people for each qunari.

[Wulfram]

250,000 is too big I think. Thedas is more medieval than classical and the Waking sea region is more or less analogous to northern europe, which would make 50,000 about the max for anywhere except our Paris analogue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rome had a million citizens back in the times of it's glory. Which is BEFORE medieval times.

And Kirkwall, according to the map, is HUUUUGE.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rome had a million citizens back in the times of it's glory. Which is BEFORE medieval times.

And Kirkwall, according to the map, is HUUUUGE.

classical Rome had a huge population but medieval cities didn't get that big, particularly in northern europe.

Whether Rome got to a million depends on which estimates you use.  Some would put it at more like 500,000.

[TheJediSaint]

Wulfram wrote...

250,000 is too big I think. Thedas is more medieval than classical and the Waking sea region is more or less analogous to northern europe, which would make 50,000 about the max for anywhere except our Paris analogue.

In my opinion, Kirkwall is more akin to Renassance Italy than Medival Northern Europe.  I actually recall one of the devs mentioning that the city-states of the Free Marches were losly inspired by Renassance era Itallian city-states.  Said devs are free to correct me.

Now back to my point, I would say a population of 100-200k seems about right for Kirkwall.  Venice during the Renassance had a population of 150,000, so I think that's a justfiable number.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 07 septembre 2012 - 11:10 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rome had a million citizens back in the times of it's glory. Which is BEFORE medieval times.

And Kirkwall, according to the map, is HUUUUGE.

Also many Middle East cities before Mongol Invasion had population like 100,000 to 1 million.

A huge land may have huge cities.

[TheRealJayDee]

DuskWarden wrote...

On a more serious note, Hawke's accomplishments:

- Saved Kirkwall and probably the wider Free Marches from the Qunari
- Witnessed the discovery of the Primeval Thaig
- Released Corypheus
- Learns about Qunari sleeper cells
- Killed Malvernis, who was a significant threat.

1. Debatable, as shown in this thread
2. Yep. Then again - so what?
3. Didn't happen in my game/story
4. Didn't happen in my game/story
5. Didn't happen in my game/story

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rome had a million citizens back in the times of it's glory. Which is BEFORE medieval times.

And Kirkwall, according to the map, is HUUUUGE.

classical Rome had a huge population but medieval cities didn't get that big, particularly in northern europe.

Whether Rome got to a million depends on which estimates you use.  Some would put it at more like 500,000.

Yes, because of civilization collapse, massive wars and the black plauge.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, because of civilization collapse, massive wars and the black plauge.

Thedas has had a dark ages too.  200 years of the 1st blight, followed by massive barbarian invasions led by Maferath and Andraste.  Then less than a century after Andraste yet another 100 years of blight.

Meanwhile of course the Dwarves have been basically wiped out by the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 septembre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Which was a long time ago in TheDas. Lets not forget how many ages have passed. And hte famine and plauge decimated Europe.

But all of that is beside the point.
The point is - Kirkwall is HUGE, the qunari are redicolousy outnumbered.

You could bury them in unarmed pesants and still win.

[Jerrybnsn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rome had a million citizens back in the times of it's glory. Which is BEFORE medieval times.

And Kirkwall, according to the map, is HUUUUGE.

classical Rome had a huge population but medieval cities didn't get that big, particularly in northern europe.

Whether Rome got to a million depends on which estimates you use.  Some would put it at more like 500,000.

Yes, because of civilization collapse, massive wars and the black plauge.

If I might add a bit here, during the Dark Ages the European population began to increase in the country side and more towns began to be established thanks to the growth of monastaries.  The monks would be put to work making clothing or baking bread for the poor.  This had the same effect in population growth that the city of Rome did by giving its citizens its daily ration of free grain.

[Realmzmaster]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

 Not talking modern vessels British man o war (first rate vessels Ship of the Line also called battleship class)  had more than 750 men as its complement. First appearing in the 1600's made of wood. There was also the Adler von Lubeck German war galleon built in 1566 carried 1000 men (350 man crew and 650 marines). 
The HMS Revenge (used by Sir Francis Drake)  built in 1577 had a crew of 300.

Roman warships like the Deceres which was a dreadnought had 572 rowers, 30 sailors and 250 marines.

A quick google of each of those tells me those were transport and siege vessels. They weren't made for open-sea battles.

The HMS Revenge (a galleon) fought the Spanish Armada in 1588 in an open sea battle. The Roman Deceres was used in open sea battle. The ship was equipped with a harpago (large grappling hook) that could be launched by ballista to snag enemy vessels and drag them to the Deceres to be destroyed.

Also Isabela in game stated that the Qunari vessel was a dreadnought (which is a seige vessel by your estimation) because it was suppose to protect the tome once the Arishok acquired it. She says I had a Qunari dreadnought stuck to my butt" during the "to catch a thief" quest.

If you have Mark of the Assassin the Duke is mad because he was looking for the formula to blackpowder, a map or dreadnought plans.

The Arishok would run his dreadnought in the ground chasing Isabela if it meant getting the tome back which is why it crashed on the reefs during the storm.

[Allan Schumacher]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

 Not talking modern vessels British man o war (first rate vessels Ship of the Line also called battleship class)  had more than 750 men as its complement. First appearing in the 1600's made of wood. There was also the Adler von Lubeck German war galleon built in 1566 carried 1000 men (350 man crew and 650 marines). 
The HMS Revenge (used by Sir Francis Drake)  built in 1577 had a crew of 300.

Roman warships like the Deceres which was a dreadnought had 572 rowers, 30 sailors and 250 marines.

A quick google of each of those tells me those were transport and siege vessels. They weren't made for open-sea battles.

I'm surprised at what you found Googling.  The HMS revenge certainly engaged in battle, but regardless one of the mainstays of wooden ship of the lines was the "74" which had a complement of 700 men.

The British adopted these ships as being ships with a good balance between firepower and manouverability, and appears to be the most frequently commissioned warship of the era.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think so!

Why do you think so? I agree, I'm just a little curious.

[Get Magna Carter]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think so!

You don't count.

unless you are basing it on inside knowledge on what is to come in future Dragon Age products

[LobselVith8]

DuskWarden wrote...

On a more serious note, Hawke's accomplishments:

- Saved Kirkwall and probably the wider Free Marches from the Qunari
- Witnessed the discovery of the Primeval Thaig
- Released Corypheus
- Learns about Qunari sleeper cells
- Killed Malvernis, who was a significant threat.

Bartrand was the one who lead the expedition, with many people accompanying him; Hawke wasn't the only witness to this discovery.

Hawke stopped the Arishok, but then he proceeded to do nothing about Meredith for three years.

I'm not certain Hawke letting loose Corypheus and doing nothing about Tallis and the list are points in his favor; the Champion seems to be painfully passive.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
On a more serious note, Hawke's accomplishments:

- Saved Kirkwall and probably the wider Free Marches from the Qunari
- Witnessed the discovery of the Primeval Thaig
- Released Corypheus
- Learns about Qunari sleeper cells
- Killed Malvernis, who was a significant threat.

Bartrand was the one who lead the expedition, with many people accompanying him; Hawke wasn't the only witness to this discovery.

Hawke stopped the Arishok, but then he proceeded to do nothing about Meredith for three years.

I'm not certain Hawke letting loose Corypheus and doing nothing about Tallis and the list are points in his favor; the Champion seems to be painfully passive.

. Keep in mind, Bartrand's expedition may never have gotten off the ground without Hawkes investment.  As for Corypheus, well, not much to say, but Tallis would never have gotten close enough to take the documents without Hawke.  So Hawke doesn't always deliberately accomplish things, but things happen because Hawke was there 

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Keep in mind, Bartrand's expedition may never have gotten off the ground without Hawkes investment.  As for Corypheus, well, not much to say, but Tallis would never have gotten close enough to take the documents without Hawke.  So Hawke doesn't always deliberately accomplish things, but things happen because Hawke was there 

Unless Varric got the money himself, of course.

So Hawke's involvement was able to help the Qunari because he did nothing when Tallis had the list. Is this the new trait for Dragon Age protagonists - to be incompetent? Because Hawke screws up over and over again, including when he does nothing about Tallis, even if the player wants Hawke to be anti-Qunari. What I get from that scene is Hawke screwing over Thedas because he was too inept to try to do anything.

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Keep in mind, Bartrand's expedition may never have gotten off the ground without Hawkes investment.  As for Corypheus, well, not much to say, but Tallis would never have gotten close enough to take the documents without Hawke.  So Hawke doesn't always deliberately accomplish things, but things happen because Hawke was there 

Unless Varric got the money himself, of course.

So Hawke's involvement was able to help the Qunari because he did nothing when Tallis had the list. Is this the new trait for Dragon Age protagonists - to be incompetent? Because Hawke screws up over and over again, including when he does nothing about Tallis, even if the player wants Hawke to be anti-Qunari. What I get from that scene is Hawke screwing over Thedas because he was too inept to try to do anything.

Or the list was not a danger to Thedas - not any more than the current status quo -  and Hawke figured getting it to some overzealous Templar or guardsman woulkd do more harm then good. As in kids and civilians getting harmed.

The Qunari spies had been in Thedas for years, ignoring the list was just going to keep the things the same as they were. Uprooting the people on the list could and would create a lot of danger to civilians. And drive the spy network underground.

[Merlex]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think so!

You don't count.

unless you are basing it on inside knowledge on what is to come in future Dragon Age products

They've already said Hawke and the Warden are done.

They are done as playable characters. But the fact that they are both missing at the end of DA2, seems to indicate that their stories aren't completely done yet.