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[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless Varric got the money himself, of course.

So Hawke's involvement was able to help the Qunari because he did nothing when Tallis had the list. Is this the new trait for Dragon Age protagonists - to be incompetent? Because Hawke screws up over and over again, including when he does nothing about Tallis, even if the player wants Hawke to be anti-Qunari. What I get from that scene is Hawke screwing over Thedas because he was too inept to try to do anything.

Or the list was not a danger to Thedas - not any more than the current status quo -  and Hawke figured getting it to some overzealous Templar or guardsman woulkd do more harm then good. As in kids and civilians getting harmed.

The Qunari spies had been in Thedas for years, ignoring the list was just going to keep the things the same as they were. Uprooting the people on the list could and would create a lot of danger to civilians. And drive the spy network underground.

Doing something about Qunari spies sounds better than doing nothing at all, which seems to be Hawke's speciality - like when he did nothing about Petrice, Meredith, and the Warden/Corypheus. I don't know why the developers depict Hawke as a passive buffoon.

[Merlex]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Merlex wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think so!

You don't count.

unless you are basing it on inside knowledge on what is to come in future Dragon Age products

They've already said Hawke and the Warden are done.

They are done as playable characters. But the fact that they are both missing at the end of DA2, seems to indicate that their stories aren't completely done yet.

And yet Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah have both said they won't appear again if they're not playable characters, and that they won't be playable characters again, and that their stories are done, soooo...

Show me. I've read that they are done as playable characters, and that each DA has a new protagonist.

But i could have sworn that i read a dev post somewhere, that we might learn something more about one or both of their stories in future DA titles. I could be remembering it wrong though.

If they stated that we will never learn more about them, show me.

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

It was during a long Twitter conversation and there's a thread here about it. I can't search for the thread or dig through the tweets to find it since I'm on my phone though. You should be able to use the search function to find it.

Pfft... You make the claim you prove it. Basic rule of debate.


Try again

[Merlex]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I'm on a phone. I don't use twitter so I can't dig through tweets and the search function here doesn't work properly on phones. Like I said, there's a thread here about it. You can probably find it if you do a search for "twitter" or "tweeted."

I've never used twitter. I don't have a facebook account. I don't even have a cell phone. I know, i'm backwards.

http://social.biowar...ndex/13271169/4

Post in question:

TamiBx wrote...

^ To add to it:

when someone asked if Hawke's story was over,

"Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw
@lookitmoves Perhaps not finished, but his time as the central "protagonist" is done, yes."

(and no DA3 news on PAX Prime; they'll hold on a little longer, apparently)

Kind of backs my position, huh?

[TEWR]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Or the list was not a danger to Thedas - not any more than the current status quo - and Hawke figured getting it to some overzealous Templar or guardsman woulkd do more harm then good. As in kids and civilians getting harmed.

The Qunari spies had been in Thedas for years, ignoring the list was just going to keep the things the same as they were. Uprooting the people on the list could and would create a lot of danger to civilians. And drive the spy network underground.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. The Qunari list is a threat to Thedas' well-being, as the Qunari make it a point of saying they'll return, Fenris says they're building up their numbers because they could easily conquer Tevinter if they wanted to, and now we learn there are Qunari sleeper cells spread throughout Thedas.

No one's saying an anti-Qunari Hawke has to hand it to people that would take things too far. Hawke himself could oversee such things, making it a point to not involve innocents. Tallis believes that if it falls into the wrong hands, innocent lives would be harmed. Hawke could make sure his hands are the right ones and that only the Qunari agents are rounded up, interrogated, and whatnot.

Even had he tried and failed to get the list from Tallis, that would've garnered points in his favor. No one's saying he should succeed in acquiring the list and using it against the Qunari, but we are saying he should attempt to do so. Whether he succeeds or fails is irrelevant to actually attempting the act itself.

There's no excuse for the anti-Qunari ending being as much of a failure as it is, and it's something that Bioware has failed to acknowledge as a shortcoming of the DLC. Because Hawke is written as aiding the Qunari no matter his stance on them, it makes the player never want to play an anti-Qunari Hawke in the base game at any point. What's the point of playing an anti-Qunari Hawke if in MotA he not only lets Tallis go free with the list without trying to do anything, but is content with the fact that he did nothing?

All Lob is really asking for is that the protagonist be allowed to attempt to do things that are proactive. Whether the protagonist succeeds is ultimately irrelevant. If Bioware wanted Tallis to still have the list, there are literally a dozen other ways she could've had it with her that wouldn't make Hawke look like an imbecilic moron.

Merlex wrote...

Kind of backs my position, huh?

I wonder if that means that Bioware will try and do the idea Brockololly and I have posed on separate occasions

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless Varric got the money himself, of course.

A good half of the quests in Act 1 are either the result of Hawke's contacts or Hawke simply being pro-active or Hawke wandering the city.

Varric's pretty capable, but I can't see him doing the other half of quests in Act 1 on his own.  I know for a fact that he can't complete Enemies Among Us, because he's the most susceptible to Idunna's blood magic. If he goes on that quest, Varric is going to end up cutting his own throat, so he cannot complete Enemies Among Us.

And there is a time limit: the Deep Roads aren't going to be empty of darkspawn forever. Varric himself says that there's only a short window after a Blight to get down there.

The solution I hear most often is that he could get the money from Dougal Gavorn, but that's only if he takes the offer. Varric is pretty hesitant about the deal and not that eager to go into the Deep Roads in the first place. I don't think Bartrand is facing financial ruin if he can't go on the expedition.

But even if he somehow come up with the money, the expedition ultimately stalls when they encounter a blockage. There's no way Varric is finding a way past, not unless he brings half the mercenaries in Kirkwall with him. Which he's not going to do, not when they're sinking their money into this doomed venture.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Hawke is written as aiding the Qunari no matter his stance on them, it makes the player never want to play an anti-Qunari Hawke in the base game at any point. 

It's not really aiding the qunari, though, because Tallis implicitly says the Ariqun was willing to let all their agents die under the pretense that they "knew the risks." Their loss is obviously unimportant to the qunari.

My theory why the Ariqun is indifferent to the deaths of their agents is twofold: one, the qunari don't really need spies, since the military force they're building is so powerful that it will sweep aside opposition; and two, many of those agents have since left the Qun and have become Tal-Vashoth.

Of course, this doesn't really explain why Hawke doesn't kill Tallis when she refuses to give him the list. Really, what should have happened is that Tallis set fire to the scroll as soon as she got her hands on it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

thats1evildude wrote...
Varric's pretty capable, but I can't see him doing the other half of quests in Act 1 on his own.  I know for a fact that he can't complete Enemies Among Us, because he's the most susceptible to Idunna's blood magic. If he goes on that quest, Varric is going to end up cutting his own throat, so he cannot complete Enemies Among Us.

[thats1evildude]

I've taken everyone through that quest and Varric is the least resistant to her control. He doesn't even like human women and he's eager to hop in the sack with her. (Isabela is pretty eager too, but that's Isabela.) You can tell the others are at least trying to resist; Fenris all but shakes it off. I've no doubt that if Varric tried to resolve that quest on his own, he'd be wearing a red smile.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[Steppenwolf]

But you're assuming that Varric would take the same path as Hawke to get the money. There's more money in Kirkwall than what Hawke scrapes together. Hell, you can get more than twice as much as you need in Act 1. Why would Varric need to go on the most dangerous quests?

[thats1evildude]

BasilKarlo wrote...

But you're assuming that Varric would take the same path as Hawke to get the money. There's more money in Kirkwall than what Hawke scrapes together. Hell, you can get more than twice as much as you need in Act 1. Why would Varric need to go on the most dangerous quests?

As I said above, half of the quests in Act 1 are the result of Hawke's contacts or simply the result of Hawke finding work by wandering around the city. Without Hawke, Varric's options are considerably more limited; he's heard the rumours that start the main quests, but that's it. If he goes on Enemies Among Us, he dies.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Steppenwolf]

But why would he even do that? Again, you're assuming Varric would do exactly what Hawke did.

[thats1evildude]

BasilKarlo wrote...

But why would he even do that? Again, you're assuming Varric would do exactly what Hawke did.

This is a theoretical scenario where Varric attempts to complete the same quests that Hawke did. (And he likely would need to do that in order to gain the money needed for the expedition.) Point is, he can't do it.

But you're right: Varric likely wouldn't do those jobs. More likely he would put his feet up at the Hanged Man, have a few drinks, offer Bartrand a few consoling words when he couldn't scrape together the cash for the expedition, and then forget about the whole thing. He doesn't want to go into the Deep Roads and is already pretty comfortable financially, so why would he bother?

Thus the idol would never be recovered and Meredith would never go mad. Thus Act 3 would not happen even if the citizens of Kirkwall managed to repel the qunari. And without Hawke, they likely cannot.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Hawke is written as aiding the Qunari no matter his stance on them, it makes the player never want to play an anti-Qunari Hawke in the base game at any point. 

It's not really aiding the qunari, though, because Tallis implicitly says the Ariqun was willing to let all their agents die under the pretense that they "knew the risks." Their loss is obviously unimportant to the qunari.

Hawke does absolutely nothing about a list of Qunari spies in Thedas, and you're trying to argue it doesn't help the Qunari? If Tallis takes the list while Hawke mimics furniture, it's a problem for people who want Hawke to oppose the Qunari, rather than capitulate to the Qunari Tallis.

[Renmiri1]

The way I see it, the spies have been on Thedas for ages. Being that the Ariqun is not worried, it is probably a list of ex agents or Tal Vashoth. Worthless.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

It's not really aiding the qunari, though, because Tallis implicitly says the Ariqun was willing to let all their agents die under the pretense that they "knew the risks." Their loss is obviously unimportant to the qunari.

It is aiding the Qunari when Hawke lets her go no matter what. If they're still alive, they're able to leak more information to the Qunari. If they're dead, that information either stops or is slowed down considerably.

The Ariqun and the rest of the Qunari may not care too much -- well, they'll obviously care about the loss of a comrade, but they won't go to war over it -- as the sleeper cells/spies/whatever the Qunari consider them to be knew the risk, but that doesn't mean it isn't aiding the Qunari.

Of course, this doesn't really explain why Hawke doesn't kill Tallis when she refuses to give him the list. Really, what should have happened is that Tallis set fire to the scroll as soon as she got her hands on it.

Or she could've eaten it.

Or Hawke fights her one on one -- where her health goes up a lot -- only for her to say "You know what? **** this" halfway through and run away with the scroll.

Or Hawke defeats her in battle and she runs away before she can be killed, Hawke acquires the scroll, takes it back to Kirkwall, only for the player/Hawke to find out Tallis broke into the Hawke Estate vault and stole it back.

There are a dozen other ways Hawke could've been written to be unable to have the scroll in his (permanent) possession without making him seem like a moron.

But Bioware doesn't really want to consider alternate perspectives on things, it seems. They didn't give the ending to MotA much thought.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Worthless

They're not all Tal-Vashoth. Only some have defected.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .