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[Knight of Dane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The assumption is that the warden is necessary to stop the Blight. Flemeth could have just as easy saved only Alistair and he would have to unite the land and defeat the Archdemon. In fact the whole game could have had the gamer controlling Alistair just like Hawke.

Darkspawn Chronicles was created to show the outcome of the Blight if the Warden died at the joining.

[Potato Cat]

CONTAINS SPOILERS (just in case)

Hawke is blamed for starting the Mage/Templar War despite it actually being caused by Anders and the maddening effects of the red lyrium on Meredith. Many people probably also think Hawke was the one who destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry. Furthermore, the events with the Qunari will probably have started a conflict, or at least worsened already bad relations with them. This is despite the fact Mother Petrice and Isabela caused this. So yes, Hawke is extremely important, even though the whole thing is just a misunderstanding.

Basically, Hawke is the only sane person in Kirkwall and so seems insane in comparison. It's easier to blame one person than an entire crazy city.

[Realmzmaster]

hhh89 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The assumption is that the warden is necessary to stop the Blight. Flemeth could have just as easy saved only Alistair and he would have to unite the land and defeat the Archdemon. In fact the whole game could have had the gamer controlling Alistair just like Hawke.

If you like DAO and the warden that is fine. If you like DA2 and Hawke that is fine. If you like both that is fine.
The Warden is important. Hawke is important for different reasons. Many people throughout real history are important some more so than others. But at that time. In that place Hawke was important rightly or wrongly. The figure is important if others think he/she is important to the events that unfold.

I agree with you, though Hawke wasn't "the most important person in Dragon Age" as the marketing claimed. Though it seems that his actions were amplified, and that people in Thedas don't know well what really happened. As others said, Cassandra thought Hawke was directly involved in the actions that lead to the war, and that he was planning this from the moment he arrived in Kirkwall.

About Alistair and the Warden, though, Bioware somehow explained what would've happened without the Warden with the Darkspawn Chronicles dlc. In the end, the Warden was better than Alistair .

The only point that Darkspawn Chronicles made was that I could beat the party playing as Hurlock Vanguard with my party. I could defeat the ArchDemon as Alistair if he was the main PC in DAO. If I played Alistair I could also make the call to let Loghain live because I need him.

[Realmzmaster]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The assumption is that the warden is necessary to stop the Blight. Flemeth could have just as easy saved only Alistair and he would have to unite the land and defeat the Archdemon. In fact the whole game could have had the gamer controlling Alistair just like Hawke.

Darkspawn Chronicles was created to show the outcome of the Blight if the Warden died at the joining.

The only point Darkspawn Chronicles proves is that I the gamer can put together a party and either defeat the ArchDemon or save him. I could beat Origins as Alistair if that was allowed.

[Mark of the Dragon]

No he/she really isnt. Hawke was just some unfortunate sob who happened to always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Before anyone says anything I actually enjoyed DA2 but Hawke was a pointless protagonist and that really hurt the experience. He/she never felt important and never really did anything important. As far as I can tell Hawkes disappearence doesnt really make much difference to the future of Thedas. Here is hoping DA3 main character is better.

[Androme]

Spoilers inbound:







Hawke is an irresponsible child, but he/she is very influental nevertheless, and Cassandra states why: Hawke was in the centre of it all, and thus has more insight into what sparked the Mage rebellion, and what could be done to calm things down.

I just hope that a part of the next DA game will be to look for the warden & hawke (or just hawke, if warden is dead) and have them help whatever the protagonist in the next game is up to (which most probably is to find an end to the war, by any means neccecary)

[Plaintiff]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
From my perspective

And there we hit the crux of the matter.

Importance is subjective. The universe perceives Hawke as important, and so he is important, whether you think he should be or not.

Ferelden is a tiny backwoods country that hardly anybody really cares about, and since the Blight is over and an unrelated issue (the Mage/Templar war) has come to the fore, the Grey Wardens as a whole, and the Warden in particular are not really relevant right now. They may become so later.

Yes, Hawke is an ordinary guy who got swept up in events. That was the whole point. The player controls Hawke, but they are seeing the story from Cassandra's perspective, as it is told to her by Varric. The 'Champion' that we are initally introduced to, the one that Cassandra believes in, is revealed to be a fiction. Cassandra's expections (and by extension, the expectations of the player) are subverted as the story unfolds.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[Renmiri1]

Well we all know Hawke is every bit as good warrior / mage /rogue as the Warden, we played both! 

If he/she didn't have a mom and siblings to get to safety Hawke could have gone to Ostagar, met Duncan, take the Joining, be sent on the mission to secure the tower... Hawke was capable of doing what the Warden did, but was not able because he / she had a family to care for.

Our Wardens have had to leave family and friends behind - or had them taken away - and had little choice but accepting Duncan's offer. How many of the Warden origin characters would have preferred to save their kin ? Human Noble and Elf Dalish for sure would be thorn, had they had an option to stay and keep their family and kin alive. City Elf and Dwarfs would have considered staying if they had not run afoul with the law.

The OP has a point, the Warden story is epic and word changing, rah rah, defeat eeevil and save civilization as we know it. Only it is very cliche. Lord of the Rings did it almost 50 years ago.

Hawkes's story is scaled down. Not the entire world to be saved, just a city. No travel all over, just around Kirkwall. Not a 1,000 year old order to save / rebuild but just the name / standing of the Amel family. It is "less important" but it is also a lot more creative.

But is it "less fun" ?

Not to me, I loved DA2 and DAO both. I prefer DA2's story because DAO's is too clichee for me. But then I have been a LotR fan for ages and have read / played many variations of the "gather some rogues and elves and save the world" trope. DAO is very well done and one of the best incarnations of it, but it is still the same tired trope.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 03:12 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

I say who cares!...though I am curious about the Blight.How far would it have spread and how many years would it have lasted if The Warden hadn't stopped it?

[Knight of Dane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The assumption is that the warden is necessary to stop the Blight. Flemeth could have just as easy saved only Alistair and he would have to unite the land and defeat the Archdemon. In fact the whole game could have had the gamer controlling Alistair just like Hawke.

Darkspawn Chronicles was created to show the outcome of the Blight if the Warden died at the joining.

The only point Darkspawn Chronicles proves is that I the gamer can put together a party and either defeat the ArchDemon or save him. I could beat Origins as Alistair if that was allowed.

Doesn't change the point from the story. You could beat the game as dog for that matter.

[Sith Grey Warden]

The problem with any theory based on the Qunari invasion/Anders dying that attempts to say that without Hawke there would be no Mage-Templar War is that it ignores the conditions that allowed the war to break out. Anders blowing up the Chantry was just the catalyst for a war that was already on the verge of breaking out. There have been previous instances where circles have been annulled. They have never caused the world to explode into war. The reason why this instance did cause that is because of the greater historical forces (Templar oppression and the Mages not taking it anymore) that would have eventually caused the same conflict anyway. It would just have taken longer as another catalyst later on would have been needed.

The Qunari could not possibly have hoped to maintain control of Kirkwall.Even in a Hawke-less world, they likely had only a hundred soldiers left after taking control of the city. The Qunari taking a city in the Free Marches is not something that would be tolerated by other Free March cities, or neighboring countries. They would have been driven out, with the only result being the shortly remembered Invasion of Kirkwall. Again, Hawke only speeds up what greater forces already made inevitable.

The difference with the Warden is that he DEFIED historical forces. Ferelden was a small backwater country with little military force. For them to resist the Blight was next to impossible. Even with the Warden leading the way, when you reach the Battle of Denerim, it's clear that your forces are heavily outnumbered. The only hope for Ferelden to win was to have a Grey Warden killing the Archdemon, which automatically makes the horde retreat. Thanks to Loghain, there were only two Grey Wardens in Ferelden (assuming The Warden dies in the joining): Alistair and Riordan. Riordan is in prison and Alistair is unlikely to succeed on his own. (No, Darkspawn Chronicles is meaningless. It shows Alistair making decisions he canonically objected to, like preserving the Anvil and siding with the werewolves and is not meant to say much about the canonical world). The Warden defied historical forces and actively changed the course of events by saving Ferelden.

tl;dr: Hawke only makes the inevitable happen sooner, while the Warden changes what will happen.

[Fortlowe]

Hawke delivered Flemeth to Sundermount.

[Sabariel]

Going to say that, no, in the long run Hawke nor the Warden will be considered all that important.

[devSin]

I don't think Hawke will have much importance at all.

But he was important to me.

[Realmzmaster]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The assumption is that the warden is necessary to stop the Blight. Flemeth could have just as easy saved only Alistair and he would have to unite the land and defeat the Archdemon. In fact the whole game could have had the gamer controlling Alistair just like Hawke.

Darkspawn Chronicles was created to show the outcome of the Blight if the Warden died at the joining.

The only point Darkspawn Chronicles proves is that I the gamer can put together a party and either defeat the ArchDemon or save him. I could beat Origins as Alistair if that was allowed.

Doesn't change the point from the story. You could beat the game as dog for that matter.

Exactly! Especially if I can make Dog a warden. The only requirement is that the soul of the old god gets destroyed by a warden. Darkspawn Chronicles proves nothing. If you fail as the Hurlock Vanguard Alistair and party win. If you fail as the Warden the ArchDemon wins.
Darkspawn Chronicles allows you to play as the Hurlock Vanguard. It tells of one alternative that might have happen. The point is that you get to play the other side. If Bioware had allowed the gamer to choose what side to play the gamer can win with either side.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 26 août 2012 - 05:50 .

[CELL55]

Hawke was important, but they were not essential IMO.

[ElitePinecone]

Well, supposedly.

[SgtElias]

Plaintiff wrote...

Importance is subjective. The universe perceives Hawke as important, and so he is important, whether you think he should be or not.

Ferelden is a tiny backwoods country that hardly anybody really cares about, and since the Blight is over and an unrelated issue (the Mage/Templar war) has come to the fore, the Grey Wardens as a whole, and the Warden in particular are not really relevant right now.

That was pretty much the crux of my entire argument. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.

As to the original poster, I think that there's a difference between perceived importance (as Plaintiff said) and actual importance.

As far as the rest of Thedas is concerned, Hawke stopped a Qunari invasion! S/he single-handedly started the Mage-Templar war! What did the Warden do? Stop the shortest Blight in history in some back-water country. It's not surprising that the "average" person would regard Hawke as much more important to current world events.

Who is actually more important? Well, that's open to debate.

[Spicen]

SgtElias wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Importance is subjective. The universe perceives Hawke as important, and so he is important, whether you think he should be or not.

Ferelden is a tiny backwoods country that hardly anybody really cares about, and since the Blight is over and an unrelated issue (the Mage/Templar war) has come to the fore, the Grey Wardens as a whole, and the Warden in particular are not really relevant right now.

That was pretty much the crux of my entire argument. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.

As to the original poster, I think that there's a difference between perceived importance (as Plaintiff said) and actual importance.

As far as the rest of Thedas is concerned, Hawke stopped a Qunari invasion! S/he single-handedly started the Mage-Templar war! What did the Warden do? Stop the shortest Blight in history in some back-water country. It's not surprising that the "average" person would regard Hawke as much more important to current world events.

Who is actually more important? Well, that's open to debate.

Um, hawke doesnt start mage templar war, Anders/Meredith starts. As for qunari, if u refuse to fight one on one with arishok, all the qunari will attack u. and how many were there ....20no, 30. Kirkwall was only a city of a state, starkhaven or other free march citehs  wud have sent reinforcement if need be. And about Mage templar war once again, i will say considering that kirkwall is defeated, mages wud have attempted to push for freedom, dont forget there was a meeting in the college of magi in which the mages wud have definitely wanted freedom, so a templar-mage war was by all means inevitable.
And ur talking about the warden doing nothing, he stopped a blight which otherwise could have crippled orlais, and other of the more "important" countries. As for Fereldan, u obviously know nothing about the lore, it is the city of andraste's birth and the whirlwind of the revolution against tevinter imperium. If it aint important Orlais wudnt want to conquer fereldan.

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yes, Hawke is an ordinary guy who got swept up in events. That was the whole point. The player controls Hawke, but they are seeing the story from Cassandra's perspective, as it is told to her by Varric. The 'Champion' that we are initally introduced to, the one that Cassandra believes in, is revealed to be a fiction. Cassandra's expections (and by extension, the expectations of the player) are subverted as the story unfolds.

Except Cassandra still thinks Hawke is some awesome cool Champion who can solve everything for her at the end of the game, just like she does at the start.

The fact that Hawke is an utter failure at everything they attempt can be read as a subversion, I suppose, but it's not one the game or the characters within it acknowledge at all.

[Sir JK]

I'd argue that Hawke was very important. But not so much by merit as by circumstance. The right person at the right place at the right time. Hawke sat in the centre of the web, the one focal point through which all was connected.

In a sense, important for the same reason Gavrilo Princip was important. WW1 did not happen because of him, it happened because of the big players and alliances which had been in place for decades. But he made it all explode.

Same for Hawke. It was all pretty accidental. Hawke just happened to be the one person that stumbled into the mess. But he was no more important than anyone else. Petrice was merely the front figure of a larger conspiracy (most of whom were never caught). Meredith a reactionary templar promoted through seniority. Dumar a man put on the throne because he was a puppet. The arishok accidentally trapped due to storm and honour. All had a role to play and Hawke walked in the centre of it.

Important, not through skill or influence. But by the whims of fate.

[Cimeas]

Sir JK wrote...

I'd argue that Hawke was very important. But not so much by merit as by circumstance. The right person at the right place at the right time. Hawke sat in the centre of the web, the one focal point through which all was connected.

In a sense, important for the same reason Gavrilo Princip was important. WW1 did not happen because of him, it happened because of the big players and alliances which had been in place for decades. But he made it all explode.

Same for Hawke. It was all pretty accidental. Hawke just happened to be the one person that stumbled into the mess. But he was no more important than anyone else. Petrice was merely the front figure of a larger conspiracy (most of whom were never caught). Meredith a reactionary templar promoted through seniority. Dumar a man put on the throne because he was a puppet. The arishok accidentally trapped due to storm and honour. All had a role to play and Hawke walked in the centre of it.

Important, not through skill or influence. But by the whims of fate.

I absolutely agree with this post.  At the same time I think that Hawke is more important than the Warden because let's be honest, I think Orleans could have stopped the blight if it came to it, and the blight practically destroyed 90% of Ferelden anyway

[Wulfram]

Cimeas wrote...

I absolutely agree with this post.  At the same time I think that Hawke is more important than the Warden because let's be honest, I think Orleans could have stopped the blight if it came to it, and the blight practically destroyed 90% of Ferelden anyway

It would be harder to stop the Blight after all the broodmothers made from Fereldan's women start churning out Darkspawn by the thousands.  And the Archdemon probably wouldn't have taken the risk of exposing itself to battle if there weren't so few Grey Wardens left in Fereldan

Anyway, the Templars would have surely stopped the Qunari, and Hawke has no impact on the outcome of the annullment of the Kirkwall circle.

[Knight of Dane]

Nyoka wrote...

The Warden is Champion of Redcliffe... it felt a bit insignificant compared to all the rest of stuff she did after that. It's a bit like when Garrus brags about being Archangel. Sure, Archangel is no commoner, but compared to Shepard... yeah.

I hope we don't see Hawke at all in 3 if she isn't the player's character because I don't want to see a strange face saying things I know my Hawke wouldn't say.

It was pretty much said in the game that if it wasn't stopped in Ferelden it might not be stopped at all.

One of the blights started in Western Orlais and the Anderfelts and spread all the way to Starkhaven if my memory serves me right, that's covering a land mass trice the size of Ferelden.