445 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders would have been killed by the templars during the meeting with Karl at the Chantry. He only survived because Hawke's group was there to lend assistance.

You didn't read Anders short story ? He and Justice slaughtered a group of Templars and Wardens. When Justice "comes out" he is very powerful and can face almost anything.. But Justice has no sense of measure, so slaughter happens.

Anders tells Hawke that he will get Karl out no matter what the cost. He knows Justice will do it, no matter how many it kills. IMHO that is why Anders didn't want to go rescue Karl alone, he wants to avoid a massacre. He needs Hawke -  not because he was afraid of facing Templars alone -  but because Anders is afraid FOR the Templars, he knows what Justice is capable of, the Templars would be massacred. 

We see it on Act 3. Justice is perfectly OK with killing many to save a few. Without Hawke, I fear Anders would have succumbed to Justice much sooner and there would have been mass slaughter on Kirkwall and perhaps even Thedas.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 04:47 .

[1Nosphorus1]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Hawke fled. Twice. Brave, brave Ser Hawke.

When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Ser Hawke he turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
Bravest of the braaaave, Ser Hawke!

[Sejborg]

Hawke is just a sidekick. Not very important.

[Quething]

How has nobody done the Sten or Arishok "no" yet?

Cuz that's the answer. No.

[bleetman]

Hawke's only real importance to the story thus far is being around when actually important events are developing, very little of which actually depend on her involvement. She's effectively just a bystander.

Off the top of my head, the only major impact I can think of is that she helps fund the deep roads expedition, which in turn causes Bartrand to find the idol that eventually ends up in Meredith's hands and poisons her mind, probably contributing to the eventual slaughter of the Kirkwall circle of magi that seemingly kicks off the mage rebellion, unless That Book I Haven't Read Yet says otherwise.

So, picking up a statue and chucking it to Varric. That's her role.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 août 2012 - 06:36 .

[Olmerto]

Regardless of his lack of control over the events in Kirkwall, in my view Hawke was a different and refreshing character to play. For all the gripes about the tiresomeness of a "save the world" protagonist, here we got to play a person who was just trying to find a place for his family and got swept up in the events.

I recall a scene between Hawke and Aveline, late in the game, where she chides him about not "doing anything" in Kirkwall, and my reply was basically that I had some business concern and I might look into politics or something, IIRC. I was content just to live, not right every wrong I perceived and play hero. In truth, Hawke did play hero when events once again overtook him, but it was due to circumstances, not any proactive move he took.

Of course, EA's marketing misled people by saying Hawke was the most important person in Thedas during this time, when in actuality Hawke had no control over the forces at work in Kirkwall. But I guess they couldn't very well advertise Hawke as the best "fire brigade" in Thedas.

The story was about how Hawke came to be at the forefront of these events, not how he shaped them. In that sense, "rise to power" is accurate. But it wasn't power to mold events, it was just personal power that placed him in the spotlight. I can and did accept that story; I don't always need to be "the hero that saves the day". The story of Thedas was advanced because of DA2, for that I'm thankful.

[Realmzmaster]

Whether Hawke or the warden are important to the DA universe is a matter of perception. I find them both to be important for different reasons. Some people perform actions that are on a world changing level. Some people perform actions that only affect on the personal level. Which is more important depends on the circumstances and people involved.

[AtreiyaN7]

Both Hawke and the Warden were important: one stopped a Blight and saved the world, the other was part of a revolution that will likely change that world forever (and who knows, the two figures might be playing additional roles in whatever Flemeth's mysterious plans are).

[bleetman]

Thing is, had the Warden not been around Ferelden would've been wiped out. The wardens as an organisation were largely content to just abandon it and wait for the darkspawn to move on, due to past blights having a tendancy to last decades at a time and consume at the very least the original host nation in the process.

It's my understanding the whole mage revolt thing comes around due to mounting political pressure and the actions of Meredith and Anders, neither of whom actually required Hawke  for them to go bat**** insane and kill a bunch of people.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 août 2012 - 10:05 .

[Sylvianus]

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

[syllogi]

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the idol, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

Doesn't really matter if Hawke became Viscount, since s/he is already gone a few years later. So, even if Hawke has this position at the end of the game, it means next to nothing.

On the other hand, the Warden and Alistair HAD to gather an army, defeat Loghain at the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. We see what happens in a world with no Warden in Darkspawn Chronicles. While life in Kirkwall still would have been chaotic, and things might have been harder without Hawke, things would have ended up in the same place. Unless, of course, another hero stepped up, who was more proactive, and actually solved problems instead of watching events unfold and reacting.

[Realmzmaster]

syllogi wrote...

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the idol, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

Doesn't really matter if Hawke became Viscount, since s/he is already gone a few years later. So, even if Hawke has this position at the end of the game, it means next to nothing.

On the other hand, the Warden and Alistair HAD to gather an army, defeat Loghain at the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. We see what happens in a world with no Warden in Darkspawn Chronicles. While life in Kirkwall still would have been chaotic, and things might have been harder without Hawke, things would have ended up in the same place. Unless, of course, another hero stepped up, who was more proactive, and actually solved problems instead of watching events unfold and reacting.

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

[Knight of Dane]

syllogi wrote...

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

That could take time for her. The point of Flemeth is that she can forsee near future somewhat and know when a person destined for greatness is before her. King Maric, the Warden and Hawke, perhaps even characters from the past. Maybe she led Shartan on track to Andraste?
Point is that Flemeth asked Hawke because she knew s/he could deliver the amulet, she had seen it coming.

syllogi wrote... 
Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

My guess would be that Varric would fund the expedition with Gavorn. He doesn't really trust him, but he does have the money. Maybe such a situation migh even have killed Varric.

syllogi wrote...  
Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the idol, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

Perhaps, my guess would be that Isabela would stay where she could find the Relic. Maybe she died fighting Hayder. I actually don't know if there is a in-game mention of her fate if you don't recruit her.

syllogi wrote...   
Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

Doesn't really matter if Hawke became Viscount, since s/he is already gone a few years later. So, even if Hawke has this position at the end of the game, it means next to nothing.

 

I'm not sure, Anders stays in Kirkwall because he wants to help the mages, but without the Idol to push Meredith it's unlikely she would have taken as harsh action as she did. The idol influenses the target with Paranoia, and it's strong sinc eit could turn Bartrand from his brother.
Without that Anders might have stayed in the underground trying to help more mages rather than jepordize them. I always viewed it as Meredith VS. Justice.
As Varric says himself "The tighter she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted, the more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."
No idol = lesser sqeezing = lesser resistance, even from Anders.

On the viscount thing i agree, i don't think it matters at all.

[Knight of Dane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

syllogi wrote...

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the idol, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

Doesn't really matter if Hawke became Viscount, since s/he is already gone a few years later. So, even if Hawke has this position at the end of the game, it means next to nothing.

On the other hand, the Warden and Alistair HAD to gather an army, defeat Loghain at the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. We see what happens in a world with no Warden in Darkspawn Chronicles. While life in Kirkwall still would have been chaotic, and things might have been harder without Hawke, things would have ended up in the same place. Unless, of course, another hero stepped up, who was more proactive, and actually solved problems instead of watching events unfold and reacting.

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

[Realmzmaster]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

[

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

Why not?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 27 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[bleetman]

syllogi wrote...

Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino.

To be honest, I'm kind of saddened there was no way to have Meredith present when Hawke faces the Arishok now. A showdown between those two would be quite the spectacle.

Modifié par bleetman, 27 août 2012 - 12:15 .

[coldSnap]

Theyre both important, Hawke and Warden. Who is more important is really irrelevent as the seekers are searching for them both.

I see a lot of people saying "well if Hawke wasn't around such and such could still happen". Fact of the matter is that he was there, and he was in the center of it. Hawke is important due to circumstance, timing, and other peoples' preconceived notions as to what they think happened in Kirkwall, i.e. Cassandra and her like.

And the Warden's importance is pretty obvious. They stopped a blight by gathering armies, and even settling disputes along the way, so it's seems apporpriate that the seekers would be looking for someone with that kind of track record and influence.

[Knight of Dane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

[

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

Why not?

Because the warden is what s/he is, that's what Flemeth wants. She only rescued AListair because she needen his role as a part of it. If he was enough she wouldn't have bothered saving the warden.

[jbrand2002uk]

Sorry to break it to the Warden fanboys but as others have said having read the books and played the games it is abundantly clear as crystal that Flemmeth only approaches people who are either important right now or will be at some point in the future and finally of all the people in Kirkwall only 1 had the respect of the Arishok was it the Viscount?....... nope, was it Meredith?........nope it was Hawke.
So its irrelevant as to if you agree or not by decree of Flemmeth and the Arishok your objections are noted and........OVERRULED because Flemmeth and Arishok are the law and thats the end of it

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did. Hawke was the key.

[Teddie Sage]

Hawke was the Catalyst of this war. Without him or her, nothing would've happened, in my honest opinion. The Hawkes influenced a lot of people, specially their entourage. Anders got inspired by Hawke to do what he did and got helped. The same goes for Aveline, Fenris and the rest of the crew. Hawke helped them overcoming their fears in his or her own way. Hawke was essential for the plot of Dragon Age 2. As for the universe, that's up to your own interpretation.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 27 août 2012 - 12:52 .

[Sylvianus]

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did.
Hawke was the key.

No he wasn't. Act 2, I asked Anders to gtfo, and he left. He didn't need any help from my Hawk to blow the chantry. Anders came back in act 3 and * poof *, the same thing happened no matter what I did to avoid that crap.

And the revolution in the world begins after what's going on in Orlais, [ Dragon age Asunder ] not Kirkwall.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 01:01 .

[Realmzmaster]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

[

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

Why not?

Because the warden is what s/he is, that's what Flemeth wants. She only rescued AListair because she needen his role as a part of it. If he was enough she wouldn't have bothered saving the warden.

 Bioware could have easily used Alistair and had the gamer control him as the PC. Flemeth only needed to save a Grey Warden, but it makes more sense as Sebastian would say to have the heir and the spare. Because if only the Warden was needed she did not have to save Alistair at all.
So she deemed both of them to be important in defeating the Blight, because if one died there was still the other.