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[chasemme]

I think the constant thrusting in my face of "You are the Champion!" made me feel LESS important. As if there was no way to show any importance, so I just get a title that doesn't even roll of the tongue well. (Not that "Hero of Ferelden" does either, but at least I only have to deal with that 3 or 4 times throughout Awakening and 2)

The qunari attack felt like I was necessary, but the finale of the game basically had me as a bystander picking sides between the two people who were ACTUALLY in charge, and ultimately ends the same way regardless of my position.

So I'd say "Notable" is a good word. Seeing as how multiple sidekicks from Origins ultimately make bigger waves than Hawke, despite everyones' adventures starting out in the same week.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvianus wrote...

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvianus wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did.
Hawke was the key.

No he wasn't. Act 2, I asked Anders to gtfo, and he left. He didn't need any help from my Hawk to blow the chantry. Anders came back in act 3 and * poof *, the same thing happened no matter what I did to avoid that crap.

And the revolution in the world begins after what's going on in Orlais, [ Dragon age Asunder ] not Kirkwall.

Anders would have to make it to Act 2. If he dies trying to help Karl there is no Act 2 for him. It was because Hawke was there to help him that you can tell him in Act 2 to get lost.

[Sylvianus]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

Yes it has to do with the universe, which is what we are talking about actually. People keep saying that it is because of the events in Kirkwall that the revolution in the world begins, but that isn't true. It is because of what happens in the book one year later in Orlais.

What has nothing to do with the universe in the book is only what is established as canon for the choices in the game.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 01:23 .

[Realmzmaster]

chasemme wrote...

I think the constant thrusting in my face of "You are the Champion!" made me feel LESS important. As if there was no way to show any importance, so I just get a title that doesn't even roll of the tongue well. (Not that "Hero of Ferelden" does either, but at least I only have to deal with that 3 or 4 times throughout Awakening and 2)

The qunari attack felt like I was necessary, but the finale of the game basically had me as a bystander picking sides between the two people who were ACTUALLY in charge, and ultimately ends the same way regardless of my position.

So I'd say "Notable" is a good word. Seeing as how multiple sidekicks from Origins ultimately make bigger waves than Hawke, despite everyones' adventures starting out in the same week.

The first enchanter was never in charge of anything not even the Circle. As the Captain said when Hawke first entered Kirkwall the real power was Meredith. The only one Meredith listen to was the Grand Cleric and by Act 3 she was losing that influence. The Viscount stayed in power by appeasing Meredith and then the nobles got what was left. Varric said at the being of Act three that the Chanpion was now the most important person in Kirkwall after Meredith. 

Hawke saved the nobles from the Qunari that gave him/her influence with them and with the common people. 

[Sylvianus]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did.
Hawke was the key.

No he wasn't. Act 2, I asked Anders to gtfo, and he left. He didn't need any help from my Hawk to blow the chantry. Anders came back in act 3 and * poof *, the same thing happened no matter what I did to avoid that crap.

And the revolution in the world begins after what's going on in Orlais, [ Dragon age Asunder ] not Kirkwall.

Anders would have to make it to Act 2. If he dies trying to help Karl there is no Act 2 for him. It was because Hawke was there to help him that you can tell him in Act 2 to get lost.

So Hawk was the key just because some years ago he didn't let a random mage die, while he didn't know him by the way ? We should focus on something else in my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 01:18 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvianus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

Yes it has to do with the universe, which is what we are talking about actually. People keep saying that it is because of the events in Kirkwall that the revolution in the world begins, but that isn't true. It is because of what happens in the book one year later in Orlais.

What has nothing to do with the universe in the book it only what is established as canon for the choices in the game.

Gaider stated that he wrote the book that way purposely so as not to contradict anything in the game. He specifically states he avoided mentioning Hawke because he would have to state what side Hawke picked and he did not want to create a canon for player characters. Gaider answered this question for you 7 months ago.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/8942858/1#8984471

[chasemme]

Realmzmaster wrote...

chasemme wrote...

I think the constant thrusting in my face of "You are the Champion!" made me feel LESS important. As if there was no way to show any importance, so I just get a title that doesn't even roll of the tongue well. (Not that "Hero of Ferelden" does either, but at least I only have to deal with that 3 or 4 times throughout Awakening and 2)

The qunari attack felt like I was necessary, but the finale of the game basically had me as a bystander picking sides between the two people who were ACTUALLY in charge, and ultimately ends the same way regardless of my position.

So I'd say "Notable" is a good word. Seeing as how multiple sidekicks from Origins ultimately make bigger waves than Hawke, despite everyones' adventures starting out in the same week.

The first enchanter was never in charge of anything not even the Circle. As the Captain said when Hawke first entered Kirkwall the real power was Meredith. The only one Meredith listen to was the Grand Cleric and by Act 3 she was losing that influence. The Viscount stayed in power by appeasing Meredith and then the nobles got what was left. Varric said at the being of Act three that the Chanpion was now the most important person in Kirkwall after Meredith. 

Hawke saved the nobles from the Qunari that gave him/her influence with them and with the common people. 

I don't deny that Hawke had a role to play, would be a rough sell for a game otherwise.

But the question was "Is Hawke important to the Dragon Age universe?" It comes down to what you consider important. I just argue that Hawke is important to Kirkwall, but considering the choices made hardly shape any part of the plot in the city alone, saying he's important to the universe is... arguable.

There are, what, 2 events Hawke actuall influences? Qunari invasion and Anders' decision. The latter seems destined to happen regardless.

[bleetman]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have the books contain the death of a major character from the games.

Not that I'm still bitter about that or anything.

[Knight of Dane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

[

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

Why not?

Because the warden is what s/he is, that's what Flemeth wants. She only rescued AListair because she needen his role as a part of it. If he was enough she wouldn't have bothered saving the warden.

 Bioware could have easily used Alistair and had the gamer control him as the PC. Flemeth only needed to save a Grey Warden, but it makes more sense as Sebastian would say to have the heir and the spare. Because if only the Warden was needed she did not have to save Alistair at all.
So she deemed both of them to be important in defeating the Blight, because if one died there was still the other.

Flemeth chooses the one she can feel gets the job done. That's what she did with Maric, the Warden and Hawke. Alistaor is not that man.

[jbrand2002uk]

Slyvianus is so wrapped up in his Warden fanboism he forgot that Mr Gaider answered he question 7 months ago which is why he wants to change the subject because Mr Gaider told him he was wrong and he doesnt like it

[Sylvianus]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

Yes it has to do with the universe, which is what we are talking about actually. People keep saying that it is because of the events in Kirkwall that the revolution in the world begins, but that isn't true. It is because of what happens in the book one year later in Orlais.

What has nothing to do with the universe in the book it only what is established as canon for the choices in the game.

Gaider stated that he wrote the book that way purposely so as not to contradict anything in the game. He specifically states he avoided mentioning Hawke because he would have to state what side Hawke picked and he did not want to create a canon for player characters. Gaider answered this question for you 7 months ago.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/8942858/1#8984471

Don't know why you are showing me that link. I know what he told me. We aren't talking about Hawk and the hero's choices that could be canon in the book and don't matter in the game, we agree about that. This isn't what we are talking about...

We are talking about an event, regardless of who is Hawk and what is its choices : The revolution in the world. Why it begins. David Gaider never told what's going on in the book doesn't concern the universe in the game. David Gaider never told what happens in his books, has nothing to do with the universe of Dragon age, the game. It was only about player's agenda and the choices made for the book.

We could even find out in DA3 some new npcs like Cole, Evangeline, Rhys who were written in the book. Doesn't that mean that what happens in the book does matter too ? 

The event in Orlais didn't contradict anything in DAII. Anders is mentioned as a hero by the mages in the circle of Orlais for what he did to the chantry, ( whether hawk is with the templars or the mages ), but that's it. This isn't because of his revolution, ( where Hawk could play a role ) the world burns.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[Sylvianus]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Slyvianus is so wrapped up in his Warden fanboism he forgot that Mr Gaider answered he question 7 months ago which is why he wants to change the subject because Mr Gaider told him he was wrong and he doesnt like it

What nonsense is this ? Also, don't even know why you are bringing the warden in the discussion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 02:21 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvianus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

No, he isn't. And after Dragon age Asunder, it is even more obvious.

The novel has zero to do with the game. Do not mix the media. Gaider has already stated that the books, comics etc do not influence the game. Each is separate from the other.

Yes it has to do with the universe, which is what we are talking about actually. People keep saying that it is because of the events in Kirkwall that the revolution in the world begins, but that isn't true. It is because of what happens in the book one year later in Orlais.

What has nothing to do with the universe in the book it only what is established as canon for the choices in the game.

Gaider stated that he wrote the book that way purposely so as not to contradict anything in the game. He specifically states he avoided mentioning Hawke because he would have to state what side Hawke picked and he did not want to create a canon for player characters. Gaider answered this question for you 7 months ago.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/8942858/1#8984471

Don't know why you are showing me that link. I know what he told me. We aren't talking about Hawk and the hero's choices  which could be canon in the book and which don't matter in the game, we agree about that. This isn't what we are talking about...

We are talking about an event, regardless of who is Hawk and what is its choices : The revolution in the world. Why it begins. David Gaider never told what's going on in the book doesn't concern the universe in the game. David Gaider never told what happens in his books, has nothing to do with the universe of Dragon age, the game. It was only about player's agenda and the choices made for the book.

We could even find out in DA3 some new npcs like Cole, Evangeline, Rhys who were written in the book. Doesn't that mean that what happens in the book does matter too ? 

The event in Orlais didn't contradict anything in DAII. Anders is mentioned as a hero by the mages in the circle of Orlais for what he did to the chantry, ( whether hawk is with the templars or the mages ), but that's it. This isn't because of his revolution, ( where Hawk could play a role ) the world burns.

The whole point of this thread is about whether Hawke is important to the DA Universe or not. The OP states in his opinion that he is not. Others state that he is. You want to bring in the events of Asunder when you know that Gaider specifically did not mention Hawke for a reason.
Anders has a brief mention because he was not the player character and you already know what side he falls on. The player gets to decide which side Hawke falls on. Therefore Mr. Gaider chose not to establish canon for the player character of DA2. That does not diminish Hawke's importance in the universe or Hawke's impact on the events.

Mr. Gaider chose not to mention Hawke in the book for the reasons stated 7 months ago.

[Realmzmaster]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

[

No the warden did not have to gather an army. Alistair could have gather an army. Darkspawn Chronicles tries to play itself as alternate history. It is simply a way of allowing the gamer to play the bad guys. As I said before I could control Alistair and still win. The Warden is there so the gamers can create their own character somewhat. Bioware could have had the player control Alistair.

But they didn't because Alistair wouldn't be able to tie things up like the warden.

Why not?

Because the warden is what s/he is, that's what Flemeth wants. She only rescued AListair because she needen his role as a part of it. If he was enough she wouldn't have bothered saving the warden.

 Bioware could have easily used Alistair and had the gamer control him as the PC. Flemeth only needed to save a Grey Warden, but it makes more sense as Sebastian would say to have the heir and the spare. Because if only the Warden was needed she did not have to save Alistair at all.
So she deemed both of them to be important in defeating the Blight, because if one died there was still the other.

Flemeth chooses the one she can feel gets the job done. That's what she did with Maric, the Warden and Hawke. Alistaor is not that man.

Then why did she save Alistair?

If Flemeth saved Hawke it shows that Hawke is important especially for Flemeth on a personal level. Hawke became her insurance policy. OP was stating that Hawke is not important to the DA Universe. I and others beg to differ. Flemeth tought Hawke was important enough to entrust her well being .

[Plaintiff]

There is never just one cause of a world-wide war. There are any number of contributing factors and inciting incidents.

The events of Asunder are important, but they do not diminish Hawke's role in events, or make him any less important. The world was building towards this conflict for years, long before either of those occured. Lots of things contributed to the current state of Thedas.

[Sylvianus]

@Realz : Don't see your point. David Gaider didn't have to mention Hawk to make Anders's terrorist act ( Where Hawk could play a role ) relevant, important and useful. It could even have been which burnt the world between mages and templars, without once mentioning his name and his side. It was enough to talk about Anders and what he has done as a catalyst in the book. He could easily talk about this event if he really wanted to.

 And yet, it was just a phenomenon reflecting a difficult situation somewhere in Thedas, which worsened and complicated things, nothing more. One year later, there would be something else that would burn the world. That's what he wanted because that was the way he thought his story. That's it.

The reason why Gaider didn't mention Hawk has nothing to do with the fact that the act of war with Anders in the game isn't which has led to the world war. So I don't know why you insist on that reason, point irrelevant for me.

Some players are saying Hawk was important in the universe because he was with Anders for the act of war against the chantry, but actually they don't have any proof, except what we learn in the book that doesn't tell the same. It all comes from our opinions and mine is also based on the book, more than " nothing ".

Also, the universe of dragon age isn't only the game. The calling, dragon age asunder, and the first book are important and the games are totally linked to them. You have to take them into account whether you like it or not.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Sylvianus wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did.
Hawke was the key.

No he wasn't. Act 2, I asked Anders to gtfo, and he left. He didn't need any help from my Hawk to blow the chantry. Anders came back in act 3 and * poof *, the same thing happened no matter what I did to avoid that crap.

And the revolution in the world begins after what's going on in Orlais, [ Dragon age Asunder ] not Kirkwall.

I did not even know that could happen, so I'll give you that. But I still stand by my stance of Hawke being important. I do believe that Hawke was more of an opinionist than a motivator or an influencer, but I also do believe that Hawke played the role of a catalyst in this Kirkwall fiasco. I think of it along the lines of Mordin's quote from Mass Effect 3- "Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong." 

[Realmzmaster]

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Think about this- Anders needed aid from Hawke for his plan. If Hawke wasn't there, he might not have gone through with it, or maybe even get himself killed. Without aid from Hawke, the chantry wouldn't have gotten blown to bits, and the argument between Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have escalated the way it did.
Hawke was the key.

No he wasn't. Act 2, I asked Anders to gtfo, and he left. He didn't need any help from my Hawk to blow the chantry. Anders came back in act 3 and * poof *, the same thing happened no matter what I did to avoid that crap.

And the revolution in the world begins after what's going on in Orlais, [ Dragon age Asunder ] not Kirkwall.

I did not even know that could happen, so I'll give you that. But I still stand by my stance of Hawke being important. I do believe that Hawke was more of an opinionist than a motivator or an influencer, but I also do believe that Hawke played the role of a catalyst in this Kirkwall fiasco. I think of it along the lines of Mordin's quote from Mass Effect 3- "Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong." 

The point is that Anders may not have been alive for Act 2 without Hawke. He could have died while trying to help Karl. Therefore no one to blowup the Chantry. And Hawke had to help Anders otherwise Hawke would not get the maps that were needed for the expedition.

In DA2 Flemeth deems Hawke important enough to entrust her Amulet with him which contains a piece of herself as insurance against death. The "death" that can happen at the hands of the warden and party. Morrigan even states that Flemeth may not be truly dead. DA2 shows how Flemeth ensure her surivival. So like Branka said about the warden Hawke may have been an errand boy but he was an important errand boy.

[Renmiri1]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Anders would have to make it to Act 2. If he dies trying to help Karl there is no Act 2 for him. It was because Hawke was there to help him that you can tell him in Act 2 to get lost.

You need to read Anders short story... Used by the writers to introduce us to Anders, it talks about what happened right after he merged with Justice

I don't see myself when I change, only the reflection in their eyes and the sound of their screams. My arm lashes out and silverite doesn't so much break as explode in a shower of molten metal. The sword melts, running down the templar's chest, and I follow up with a wave of flames which scorch the flesh from his face, leaving only bone so hot it smolders. The trees are burning… the tent… everything around us.

Rolan is still standing, and I smell the lyrium he drank, which guarded him from the blast. But he's afraid. I see his shield jerk and know he barely resisted the urge to flee, and I have a sudden thought, "What am I?" for I've seen him face both broodmothers and abominations without fear.

And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me, for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when he gives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just ], whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me.

He hated me, and he is dead. He feared me, and he is dead. He hunted me, and he is dead.

They will all die. Every templar, every holy sister who stands in the way of our freedom will die in agony and their deaths will be our fuel. We will have justice. We will have vengeance

And suddenly I'm alone, standing in a burning forest, with the bodies of templars and wardens at my feet. So many, and I didn't even know they were there. Didn't even know I had killed them, but the evidence is all around me. Not the aftermath of a battle as I've known it, but a bloody abattoir of rent limbs and torn and eaten flesh. 

Does that sound like someone who would die after being attacked by half a dozen templars ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 07:12 .

[Plaintiff]

Well, it's possible to kill Anders in DA2, so I'm thinking his short story probably should not be taken as gospel.

[Renmiri1]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, it's possible to kill Anders in DA2, so I'm thinking his short story probably should not be taken as gospel.

It is possible because Anders wants to die. He controls Justice and doesn't let him attack you...

He asks you to come "help" rescue Karl and investigate Sir Alrick because Anders doesn't want another massacre. He doesn't want Justice to get loose and do what Justice did to Rolan and the other Wardens and Templars on the short story.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[Tommyspa]

You don't know how many times he can do that though, I imagine a good head lopping off could kill him. He could still be captured, if not killed while transformed.

[Plaintiff]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, it's possible to kill Anders in DA2, so I'm thinking his short story probably should not be taken as gospel.

It is possible because Anders wants to die. He controls Justice and doesn't let him attack you...

He asks you to come "help" rescue Karl and investigate Sir Alrick because Anders doesn't want another massacre. He doesn't want Justice to get loose and do what he did to Rolan and the other Wardens and Templars

Doesn't want another massacre? He never expressed such sentiment in my version of DA2. If that was the case, he probably should've asked someone other than Hawke.

[Renmiri1]

Tommyspa wrote...

You don't know how many times he can do that though, I imagine a good head lopping off could kill him. He could still be captured, if not killed while transformed.

Of course he can be killed.. But not by the 5 or 6 templars that were there to arrest him when he went to save Karl. Or by the 10-12 that were with Ser Alrick.

My point is that Anders would not have died without Hawke,  just the oppoisite. He might have gone completely "Abomination" and killed Meredith, templars, chantry and many more people before he was finally killed. From the short story sounds like Justice at full force is worse than a Harvester!

Plaintiff wrote...


Doesn't want another massacre? He never expressed such sentiment in my version of DA2. If that was the case, he probably should've asked someone other than Hawke.

 

@Plaintiff - He says he will liberate Karl at any cost. Then asks you to come and handle the templars. On Act 2 he specifically says he and Justice are a monster and he fears he will hurt people.. Did you missed most of his dialog in Act 2 ? Also, keep in mind he has ALWAYS BEEN capable of doing what the short story describe, yet he spends 7 years patiently helping mages escape and healing poor people. Why ? Because he likes killing ? Nope, he refrains from letting his monster loose because he doesn't want to kill people. Anders does not want to repeat that massacre. Justice wants it though..

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 07:29 .