445 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

Hawke is a perfect example of non-hero character. Champion or not - (s)he does not fight Big Bad Evil, (s)he only tries to make her new home, friends, love... And gets involved in all those conflicts and fights. How both me and myHawke wish there was no need to pick sides..

I know some may think Hawke is "not important" comparing to Lt.Cmdr. Shepard or Warden Hero of Ferelden...But I honestly liked the idea of non-hero character. You don't need to save galaxies to be important and make difference. Hawke is very much like that "final straw".

And I also appreciate that most of companions have their own reasons and do their own things, and not just worship and follow blindly the allmighty Champion.

[Renmiri1]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I read the short story, during the transformation he is vulunerable and can be killed.  For example during the cutscene with Karl Anders falls to his kness at that moment or before he can be killed. A templar hunter using assassinate can take him out. 
But let's say Anders killed all the templars himself. He could just as easily killed Karl in the ensuring melee. Because by Act 2 Anders is unable to control himself which is why he ends up killing the mage girl . The only reason why he does not is if Hawke has enough friendship or rivalry to influence Anders.
So on a personal level Hawke can save Anders from committing an unjust murder.

Good point, Anders would be vulnerable during the transformation. Still, he massacred a fleet of Templars and Wardens bent on capturing him so it must not be that easy to kill him when Justice/ Vengeance get full control.

And yes, he could have killed Karl, even if Karl was not Tranquil.. He has no control once he gets in this state.

Hawke is the only one that can "reason" with Vengeance. Hawke keeps Anders stable and murder free for 7 years. Hawke is also the only one that can reason with the Arishok. 

Hawke's title shouldn't have been Champion, it should have been Lion Tamer! 

[thats1evildude]

syllogi wrote...

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

That's not necessarily true. Getting into Kirkwall was itself tricky; many of the Fereldans Hawke arrived with were turned away, and Hawke only accomplished the deed through his/her uncle's connections and a year of hard work. But even then, getting the amulet to the Dalish was only part of the bargain; Hawke also had to fight through several waves of walking corpses and giant spiders. Not just ANY Fereldan peasant could fight his/her way to the top of Sundermount.

syllogi wrote...

Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

Dougal might have found another patsy to offer the needed funds, but the expedition would have stalled in the Deep Roads if Hawke wasn't there to find a path around the rubble. Thus, the Lyrium idol would remain lost.

syllogi wrote...

Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the Tome, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

But Orsino would have died at the hands of the qunari if Hawke wasn't there to save them, and for reasons I laid out earlier, the templars would have been greatly weakened and Meredith would have trouble even reaching the Arishok. And even if she did, what then? The Arishok would not have dueled her, and her abilities as a templar — while impressive — are of little use against the Arishok.

As to whether another Free Marches city would intervene in Kirkwall, I doubt it. The next strongest city is Starkhaven, which was going through a succession crisis.

syllogi wrote...

Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

If the qunari ruled Kirkwall, then blowing up the Chantry would have meant nothing, even if he could somehow accomplish the deed on his own. And as I said before, Anders would likely have died at the ambush in the Chantry during Act 1.

And even if the qunari would have been repelled, Meredith's paranoia would not have been pronounced without the lyrium idol. She stepped aside and appointed a new viscount when Threnhold was overthrown; why wouldn't she do that a second time if she wasn't being influenced by the idol?

syllogi wrote...

On the other hand, the Warden and Alistair HAD to gather an army, defeat Loghain at the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. We see what happens in a world with no Warden in Darkspawn Chronicles. While life in Kirkwall still would have been chaotic, and things might have been harder without Hawke, things would have ended up in the same place.

But events still unfolded in much the same way in the Darkspawn Chronicles without the Warden's presence. Alistair still managed to enact all the treaties, and even though he didn't cure Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan stepped up to replace him. Certainly, Alistair walked a very dark path without the Warden's presence, but he still does the Warden's job without the Warden helping him. The only difference the Warden seemingly made was actually landing the killing blow on the Archdemon.

So if the Warden was seemingly only necessary to beat the Archdemon, why do you say that Hawke wasn't necessary to defeat the Arishok?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 07:10 .

[FieryDove]

syllogi wrote...

If Hawke never came to Kirkwall...

Flemeth would have found someone else to bring her amulet to the Dalish. Heck, she could have just gone to Gwaren and handed it to one of the poor Fereldens going to the Free Marches. Risky, but it would have been just as risky as handing it to Hawke.

Dougal Gavorn might have found another patsy to fund the Deep Roads expedition, and/or Varric could have found someone else to talk Anders into giving them the maps. The lyrium idol may or may not have been found. No telling whether Meredith would have been more reasonable without it, she was already oppressing mages pretty harshly when Hawke comes to Kirkwall, and she has no idol.

Isabela almost definitely would have left town with or without the idol, and the Qunari would have attacked. Either another hero would have stepped up, or eventually the Chantry or another Free Marches city state would march on Kirkwall and drive them out. Heck, Meredith could have dueled the Arishok, or Orsino. Who is to say they couldn't have won?

Anders would have still destroyed the Chantry. Meredith's craziness really doesn't have an effect on this, because he planned it well before she called for the Rite of Annulment. So I don't see any variables here.

Doesn't really matter if Hawke became Viscount, since s/he is already gone a few years later. So, even if Hawke has this position at the end of the game, it means next to nothing.

On the other hand, the Warden and Alistair HAD to gather an army, defeat Loghain at the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. We see what happens in a world with no Warden in Darkspawn Chronicles. While life in Kirkwall still would have been chaotic, and things might have been harder without Hawke, things would have ended up in the same place. Unless, of course, another hero stepped up, who was more proactive, and actually solved problems instead of watching events unfold and reacting.

I agree with all of this.

I think for Hawke to be the *most important person in Thedas* was supposed to be wrapped up/shown in the expansion that never happened. It didn't happen in the game as-is that's for sure.

[Renmiri1]

Anders would not have died on act 1 but he might have self destructed (while taking a sizable number of templars with him) by Act 3. Same for Merril.

Fenris and Sebastian could have alo gone full "insane" and war against mages..

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 07:44 .

[thats1evildude]

Without Hawke's intervention, Fenris would have either been forced to flee Kirkwall or been re-captured. The latter is a good possibility, since he didn't expect Danarius' forces to be so numerous.

Sebastian would likely have been killed by Flint Company at some point or would have met his end when trying to confront Lady Harriman.

[Realmzmaster]

The warden could be any of six different people based on the origins. So anyone Ducan deemed capable could become a Grey Warden if they passed the Joining. Obviously Duncan considered Alistair capable and not just because he is Maric's son. The Joining could have killed Alistair dead, but he was strong enough to survive. As Darkspawn Chronicles (since many want to point to this dlc) shows able to gather the armies and necessary companions. So he was able to lead the party. Alistair rose to the occasion despite not having the warden present.

As far as any individual taking Hawke's place. I do not think that just anybody could defeat an ogre. That is the reason that Flemeth stop in the first place to sate her curiosity on who was capable enough to perform such a feat. Even Varric states that many have not seen an ogre let alone defeated one and lived to tell about it.
Flemeth is not going to leave her insurance policy with someone she thought was incapable of getting it to safety and getting the ritual performed.

[Jerrybnsn]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The warden could be any of six different people based on the origins. So anyone Ducan deemed capable could become a Grey Warden if they passed the Joining. Obviously Duncan considered Alistair capable and not just because he is Maric's son. The Joining could have killed Alistair dead, but he was strong enough to survive. As Darkspawn Chronicles (since many want to point to this dlc) shows able to gather the armies and necessary companions. So he was able to lead the party. Alistair rose to the occasion despite not having the warden present.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Alistair could have stopped the blight himself?  The alternate history showed the he didn't and all of Thedas was to be subjected to the 5th blight. 

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 27 août 2012 - 08:11 .

[thats1evildude]

As I said before, while the Darkspawn Chronicles shows that the Warden was necessary to slay the Archdemon, it also shows that the Warden was ONLY necessary for that one task. Otherwise, Alistair manages to accomplish nearly everything else that the Warden does, albeit in a slightly more brutal way than some Wardens.

And if the defeat of the Archdemon was apparently contingent on the presence of the Warden, then why would the defeat of the Arishok be any different for someone else other than Hawke?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 08:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The warden could be any of six different people based on the origins. So anyone Ducan deemed capable could become a Grey Warden if they passed the Joining. Obviously Duncan considered Alistair capable and not just because he is Maric's son. The Joining could have killed Alistair dead, but he was strong enough to survive. As Darkspawn Chronicles (since many want to point to this dlc) shows able to gather the armies and necessary companions. So he was able to lead the party. Alistair rose to the occasion despite not having the warden present.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Alistair could have stopped the blight himself?  The alternate history showed the he didn't and all of Thedas was to be subjected to the 5th blight. 

You will note that I said Alistair was able to gather the armies and the companions just like the warden.  Darkspawn Chronicles shows this point.  He was able to lead them to this point and they are battling the ArchDemon. Darkspawn Chronicles is a nice what if scenario where the gamer gets to control the bad guys. The point is that the gamer could take control of Alistair and party if allowed and beat the ArchDemon. All the ingredients for its defeat are there. It does not require the warden. It requires a warden.

[syllogi]

thats1evildude wrote...

So if the Warden was seemingly only necessary to beat the Archdemon, why do you say that Hawke wasn't necessary to defeat the Arishok?

All the rest is pure theorycrafting and speculations and "what ifs," so I'm not going to argue with anybody telling me that something else *might* have happened differently than what I supposed.  But the Archdemon HAS to be killed by a Grey Warden, and a Grey Warden is the only one who can attempt to enforce those treaties and gather the armies.  Yeah, it can be Alistair or Loghain or even Riordan, if it's not our PC Warden, but that qualifier at least *feels* important, as a player.  There are no other choices, at the beginning of the game.  The player may feel limited by this story, but there's also a sense of urgency and importance.

Fenris knows about the protocol that allows for a duel with the Arishok.  Why can't he be the one to do it?  What if Aveline met another family with a few members who could wield a sword?  Isn't it possible that they could have defeated the ogre without the Hawkes?  Anders could have asked for help from someone else in the attempt to rescue Karl (although I agree with the idea that he could have done it alone, he just didn't want to give Justice complete control if he didn't have to).  Isabela could have asked anyone who looked capable to help her with her duel.  Flemeth had plenty of time to find another capable warrior to go to Sundermount, since it took a full year for Hawke to deliver it anyway...etc., etc.

From where I sit, there is a stronger story related reason for the Warden to be a hero.  Hawke seems to stumble upon a series of seemingly unrelated events.

[thats1evildude]

syllogi wrote...

All the rest is pure theorycrafting and speculations and "what ifs," so I'm not going to argue with anybody telling me that something else *might* have happened differently than what I supposed.

I'm making reasonable assumptions based on the evidence at hand. I suppose if I jumped off a cliff there is a chance I might suddenly sprout wings and soar through the air, but the most likely outcome by an immeasurably far margin is that I fall to my death.

I don't think Varric could recover the lyrium idol. I don't think Anders could survive the ambush at the Chantry. And I don't think anyone else but Hawke could have defeated the Arishok, especially if Hawke was not there to play a part in the events leading up to the qunari invasion.

syllogi wrote...

But the Archdemon HAS to be killed by a Grey Warden, and a Grey Warden is the only one who can attempt to enforce those treaties and gather the armies.

There's no particular qualifier that Shepard MUST be the one to save the galaxy from the Reapers, either, aside from heaping amounts of talent. Does that make Commander Shepard less a hero?

syllogi wrote...

Fenris knows about the protocol that allows for a duel with the Arishok.  Why can't he be the one to do it?

But Fenris only avoids his pursuers through Hawke's intervention and only stays in Kirkwall out of loyalty to Hawke. So why would he?

And even the stars somehow aligned that Fenris happened to be in Kirkwall when the qunari took over and decided to involve himself in a conflict that he had no personal stake in, could Fenris defeat the Arishok? Doubtful. Fenris was never more than the Robin to my Batman; while he's certainly capable, he's not at the Arishok's level.

syllogi wrote...

What if Aveline met another family with a few members who could wield a sword?

How likely is that Aveline comes across ANOTHER family of capable warriors with connections to the city of Kirkwall wandering through the Blight lands? I think my sprouting wings is still more likely.

syllogi wrote...

Anders could have asked for help from someone else in the attempt to rescue Karl (although I agree with the idea that he could have done it alone, he just didn't want to give Justice complete control if he didn't have to).

But could anyone else have done it? Anders' contacts are extremely limited at that point and few would have a reason to support him.  

syllogi wrote...

Flemeth had plenty of time to find another capable warrior to go to Sundermount, since it took a full year for Hawke to deliver it anyway...etc., etc.

But Flemeth may not survive the events of Origins. So even though it takes a year for Hawke to deliver the amulet, she may be "dead" that entire time.

Meeting Hawke was incredibly fortuitous on her part … or was it fate? I can never decide.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 09:28 .

[Realmzmaster]

syllogi wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

So if the Warden was seemingly only necessary to beat the Archdemon, why do you say that Hawke wasn't necessary to defeat the Arishok?

All the rest is pure theorycrafting and speculations and "what ifs," so I'm not going to argue with anybody telling me that something else *might* have happened differently than what I supposed.  But the Archdemon HAS to be killed by a Grey Warden, and a Grey Warden is the only one who can attempt to enforce those treaties and gather the armies.  Yeah, it can be Alistair or Loghain or even Riordan, if it's not our PC Warden, but that qualifier at least *feels* important, as a player.  There are no other choices, at the beginning of the game.  The player may feel limited by this story, but there's also a sense of urgency and importance.

Fenris knows about the protocol that allows for a duel with the Arishok.  Why can't he be the one to do it?  What if Aveline met another family with a few members who could wield a sword?  Isn't it possible that they could have defeated the ogre without the Hawkes?  Anders could have asked for help from someone else in the attempt to rescue Karl (although I agree with the idea that he could have done it alone, he just didn't want to give Justice complete control if he didn't have to).  Isabela could have asked anyone who looked capable to help her with her duel.  Flemeth had plenty of time to find another capable warrior to go to Sundermount, since it took a full year for Hawke to deliver it anyway...etc., etc.

From where I sit, there is a stronger story related reason for the Warden to be a hero.  Hawke seems to stumble upon a series of seemingly unrelated events.

Flemeth did not have a year to find another capable warrior, because there was the possibility that the warden was coming to kill her at Morrigan's urging during that year. As I said the amulet was an insurance policy against that possibility. Also the only reason the darkspawn had not detected the warden and Alistair was because Flemeth's magic was preventing it. That was only going to last so long. Flemeth herself said the area would fall to the Blight.

How was Anders going to turn to someone else who would not blackmail him or turn him in? Anders had something Hawke needed the maps and expertise in the Deep Roads. 
Isabela was familar with the dark sides of the city and as Varric noted the name Hawke was on many lips. She would know who Hawke was and what Hawke was capable of. She simply had not met Hawke. 

Fenris could not duel the Arishok because the Arishok did not consider him Basalit-an. Also Hawke was Basvaraad.

Yes the ArchDemon has to be killed by a warden, but no necessarily the warden. 

[Nefla]

renjility wrote...

Hawke did stop the Qunari invasion before it got even more out of hand. And that's the only thing he/she can truly be accounted for, except for helping companions and Feynriel.

Except Meredith and Orsino came into the room like 5 sec after the battle. If Hawke had lost/not been there, they would have killed the Arishock instead, possibly working together which might have gone a long way in calming mage/templar animosity.

[thats1evildude]

Nefla wrote...

Except Meredith and Orsino came into the room like 5 sec after the battle. If Hawke had lost/not been there, they would have killed the Arishok instead, possibly working together which might have gone a long way in calming mage/templar animosity.

But Orsino would have been killed by the qunari if not for Hawke and Meredith alone could not have defeated the Arishok, not without the lyrium idol. Also, the templars would have been greatly weakened without Hawke's intervention.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 09:51 .

[Mello]

All you need is advanced skills and a mind to do Hawkes job.

[Renmiri1]

Kirkwall needed someone like Hawke, with a finger on every pie and stumb;ing into each crisis.. like Samson says "since you got off the boat".

It is precisely his / her integrity and loyalty to friends and family that unites and stabilizes all kinds of crazy people who would have made a mess much sooner if Hawke wasn't there. Merril might have been possessed or bring a new blight with her mirror to Arlathan.. Fenris would be captured or war with mages.. Anders would massacre templars, Bartrand would kill Varric and go insane evil lord on his mansion...

[coles4971]

iPoohCupCakes wrote...

All you need is advanced skills and a mind to do Hawkes job.

Where's the "advanced skills" in killing half of Kirkwall's population? 

[thats1evildude]

Aren't all Bioware games dedicated to racking up as high a body count as possible? I'm pretty sure that the Warden piled up enough corpses to dam a river.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 10:40 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Clearly Anders is much more important than Hawke. There's really no debating that.

Eh. Really, nothing he does could have been accomplished without Hawke; his final act of blowing up the Chantry is meaningless without the events that led up to it, which in turn were influenced by Hawke's presence. 

The end game, ie. the Rite of Annulment, would have happened eventually. That powder keg was already lit; all Anders did was shorten the fuse.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 août 2012 - 10:40 .

[coles4971]

thats1evildude wrote...

Aren't all Bioware games dedicated to racking up as high a body count as possible? I'm pretty sure that the Warden piled up enough corpses to dam a river.

wardens are made to kill darkspawn, hence the kill count

hawke's just some guy

who ... racks up a huge kill count

[Nefla]

thats1evildude wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Except Meredith and Orsino came into the room like 5 sec after the battle. If Hawke had lost/not been there, they would have killed the Arishok instead, possibly working together which might have gone a long way in calming mage/templar animosity.

But Orsino would have been killed by the qunari if not for Hawke and Meredith alone could not have defeated the Arishok, not without the lyrium idol. Also, the templars would have been greatly weakened without Hawke's intervention.

Meredith saved your party's life from the Qunari not 10 min before that and even if she couldn't duel him alone, a party battle with Meredith, Orsino, and the templars vs the Arishock and a handful of Qunari underlings would have still worked.

[SgtElias]

Spicen wrote...

Fair reply most of them except about the qunari, u have to realise whatever hawke does, the arishok still says
that the qunari will come back. so the only notable thing is hawke saved a few nobles but thats really it.

Well, I suppose the reason I believe that people revere Hawke (on this issue, anyway) is because the Qunari are a very real threat, and people expect them to invade sooner or later. Fair or not, I think people credit Hawke with putting that day off for just a little while longer.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jerusalem must be one of the most resource rich cities in human history.

Alright, I phrased that poorly. Armies don't only invade a place because it's important. And I specifically didn't bring up differences in religion or philosophy as a reason for invasion because I was trying to stay away from real-world examples.

Modifié par SgtElias, 27 août 2012 - 11:10 .