445 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

I was under the impression that my Dalish Warden had stumbled onto a mirror to the Archdemon. The mirror / eluvian that Merril later tries to repair.

My mistake. But why was the forest filled with darkspawn after the mirror got activated ?

[Renmiri1]

No Duncan tells you on DAO that the darkspawn are not coming anymore since he destroyed the mirror.

From what I gathered, it was a portal / webcam to the Archdemon. Now I'm not so sure, maybe it wasnt the archdemon, just some powerful monster in a darkspawn lair

[Knight of Dane]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

I was under the impression that my Dalish Warden had stumbled onto a mirror to the Archdemon. The mirror / eluvian that Merril later tries to repair.

My mistake. But why was the forest filled with darkspawn after the mirror got activated ?

The Eluvians don't just take you to another location in thedas, they're portals to some other dimension or plane. As to why Darkspawn appear, I have no idea. There's no real reason for it established in the game. Maybe they retconned what the Eluvians are since your companion in that origin becomes a ghoul(or whatever the people with the taint sickness are called).

Don't they link to one another?

Darkspawn doesn't appear from them, but they are atrracted to them, probably because of some tevinter magic that went wrong when they tried to use their power.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 27 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[Realmzmaster]

Nefla wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Except Meredith and Orsino came into the room like 5 sec after the battle. If Hawke had lost/not been there, they would have killed the Arishok instead, possibly working together which might have gone a long way in calming mage/templar animosity.

But Orsino would have been killed by the qunari if not for Hawke and Meredith alone could not have defeated the Arishok, not without the lyrium idol. Also, the templars would have been greatly weakened without Hawke's intervention.

Meredith saved your party's life from the Qunari not 10 min before that and even if she couldn't duel him alone, a party battle with Meredith, Orsino, and the templars vs the Arishock and a handful of Qunari underlings would have still worked.

No Meredith saved the party from a saarebas after Hawke and party had wiped out all the Qunari in the Hightown merchant square. It was the games way of introducing Hawke and Meredith. Hawke and company had already killed several qunari and saarebas before then and after.
Also Orsino would be as dead as the other mages. If Bethany is in the Circle when Hawke comes upon Orsino Orsino heals Bethany. All the other mages are dead. If you remember Hawke and party wipe out the Kossith in front of the Keep where they find all the other dead mages except Orsino.

Orsino scolds Bethany by telling her he told her to run and let the Qunari take him. The Qunari would not have let Orsino live.

Hawke is necessary because neither Orsino nor Meredith trust each other. One would not follow the other. Hawke presents a neutral third party that can lead the group

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

What events? And how couldn't Anders have accomplished it without Hawke?

Virtually everything that happened in the game. Here's an example:

Let's say Hawke never made it to Kirkwall and thus was not present during the events of Shepherding Wolves. At some point or another, Petrice would have been successful in finding some other patsy to escort Ketojan. If said patsy was slain by the qunari, Petrice would have the ammunition she needed to stir up even more unrest against the qunari. They get madder, and the qunari's invasion of Kirkwall moves forward a few years.

Now, after a stay of three years in Kirkwall, the qunari have lost a number of their men. Some were killed and some became Tal-Vashoth. If they had tried to take over the city earlier, they would have been much stronger and thus their invasion would be more likely to succeed. During their invasion, they would likely kill the Viscount, Meredith, most of the mages and Grand Cleric Elthina, who would refuse to renounce her faith.

Move forward a few years. Kirkwall is under control of the qunari. Most of the population has been converted to the Qun or turned into mindless labourers. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Anders blows up the Chantry because he's gone completely bonkers without Hawke's influence.

What's the net result? Nothing. Unless they were using the building for something, the qunari sure as hell don't care about the Chantry. And the rest of Thedas are way more concerned about Kirkwall being occupied.

Or maybe the qunari fail in their takeover. What happens then? Because Petrice's plans succeeded earlier in the timeline, then she would have had no reason to kill Seamus. Even if the viscount himself is killed, Seamus himself would be appointed to the role. Thus, the crisis that occurs in Act 3  — due in large part to Meredith refusing to yield the throne, largely due to the influence of the lyrium idol  — never unfolds in the same way.

That's one example of how Hawke's mere presence had an impact on the events of Dragon Age 2. I can come up with more, if you like.

BrotherWarth wrote...

You don't even have to help Anders gather what he needs. And considering how you can treat Anders like a saint among men or a worthless pile of **** and he does the same things, I hardly think Hawke made Anders' decision for him.

True, it doesn't  matter whether or not you gather the ingredients for Anders' bomb, or even if you help him sneak it into the building. But the destruction of the Chantry still requires everything that comes before it to hold any significance.

BrotherWarth wrote...

Anders destroyed a chantry and everyone inside. He lit the spark for the rest of Thedas. Kirkwall enacting the Rite of Annulment would have been an isolated incident. Anders started a war, Hawke fought a battle.

At some point or another, Meredith would have enacted the Rite, with or without Elthina's consent. She held Meredith in check, but that was still a pretty short leash.

Had Meredith ordered her templars to slaughter the mages, what would Elthina do? Demand Meredith to step down? Rally the city to fight Meredith? She wouldn't have done anything. She would have grudgingly consented to the Rite, and watched on the sidelines as Meredith butchered the Circle.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 03:54 .

[thats1evildude]

Nonetheless, it is a reasonable prediction of how events would play out. Cause and effect, dude.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[thats1evildude]

But you can't say definitively that the events of DA2 would have unfolded in the same way. Even if Anders destroys the Chantry on his own without Hawke's involvement, the circumstances that led up to that act would have been different if Hawke had not been around.

This is all basic "It's a Wonderful Life" stuff; take George Bailey out of the equation, and over time Old Man Potter has turned Bedford Falls into Pottersville, Mary became a spinster and his brother drowned to death. Except in DA2, Hawke's absence leads to the Arishok converting the entire population of Kirkwall into mindless slaves, the deaths of countless NPCs and all of Hawke's companions, and the Circle of Magi enduring the yoke of oppression for decades to come.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 05:05 .

[Corto81]

thats1evildude wrote...

Nonetheless, it is a reasonable prediction of how events would play out. Cause and effect, dude.

That's taking stuff completely out of context or deliberately deluding yourself into thinking Hawke was big...

By the same logic, Jim the Milkman was the most important in Thedas because he introduced Duncan's mom to Duncan's father, and Duncan went on to find the GW who saved Ferelden.

...

Hawke spent Act 1 gather money. NOT important for the world.
He helped stop the Qunari rebellion in Act 2. Important for Kirkwall. (that's about it though)
He was there when s++t hit the fan in Act 3, in an unconvincing story with lame plot twists where nothing Hawke did influenced Anders, Orsino or Meredith in any way, shape or form.

And I'm sorry, personal stories are nice and all, but this is an RPG.
An epic journey and an epic ending is what every GW had in DA:O.
His actions shaped the WORLD (yes, Hawke's actions can lead to Fenris living or dying or Isabela being handed to Qunari -  big whoop).

It's really not that debatable to me, honestly.
Warden was big.
Hawke was meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

[Realmzmaster]

Corto81 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Nonetheless, it is a reasonable prediction of how events would play out. Cause and effect, dude.

That's taking stuff completely out of context or deliberately deluding yourself into thinking Hawke was big...

By the same logic, Jim the Milkman was the most important in Thedas because he introduced Duncan's mom to Duncan's father, and Duncan went on to find the GW who saved Ferelden.

...

Hawke spent Act 1 gather money. NOT important for the world.
He helped stop the Qunari rebellion in Act 2. Important for Kirkwall. (that's about it though)
He was there when s++t hit the fan in Act 3, in an unconvincing story with lame plot twists where nothing Hawke did influenced Anders, Orsino or Meredith in any way, shape or form.

And I'm sorry, personal stories are nice and all, but this is an RPG.
An epic journey and an epic ending is what every GW had in DA:O.
His actions shaped the WORLD (yes, Hawke's actions can lead to Fenris living or dying or Isabela being handed to Qunari -  big whoop).

It's really not that debatable to me, honestly.
Warden was big.
Hawke was meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Where is it written in stone that every rpg must have an epic ending and epic journey? If that is what you want in an rpg that is fine, but every rpg does not have to fit that mode. In fact some of my favorite rpgs do not fit that mode. The purpose of Alternate Reality was to esacpe your kipnappers and return home. The purpose of Planescape Torment was to find out who you are. The purpose of BG1 was find out who is trying to kill you and why. 

The warden is big to you. I find both to be important for different reasons. You do not so there we will agree to disagree.

[Spicen]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Where is it written in stone that every rpg must have an epic ending and epic journey? If that is what you want in an rpg that is fine, but every rpg does not have to fit that mode. In fact some of my favorite rpgs do not fit that mode. The purpose of Alternate Reality was to esacpe your kipnappers and return home. The purpose of Planescape Torment was to find out who you are. The purpose of BG1 was find out who is trying to kill you and why. 

The warden is big to you. I find both to be important for different reasons. You do not so there we will agree to disagree.

You would have a point if DA2 weren't marketed as an Epic Journey(!) chronicling the EPIC exploits of the major figure of HAWKE! The most EPIC man in Thedas! Experience his RISE TO POWER(that never actually happens)!

I still cant believe people are rating Hawke as a protagonist, let alone coming even near to the warden.They shud play DAO again to remember what it means to be a REAL hero. Not some bearded guy from down the town whos a poor excuse for a hero.

[Kylar616]

Hawke was just an extra little tip to some scale or another, a nudge here, a person dead here and this future a few years in the making doesn't happen. He may have not have had such a massive impact on the world as the warden but the seekers had been sent after the campion after all the crap in kirkwall, they could trace the tipping of the scales between orisino and meridiths stalemate. Meridith perhaps would have did the rite anyway without hawke there but perhaps the mages and templars would have killed each other off, it just needed 10 years of collected decisions from hawke to decide who lost the least people.

The wheel of time books has a little concept called Ta'veren, people who are important to the world and can shape the future through their choices, we could just say Hawke is a lesser Ta'veren than the Warden, his choices are less important, take more time to fruition and don't have such a massive impact on the world until the end of DA2.

Modifié par Kylar616, 28 août 2012 - 09:47 .

[Corto81]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Where is it written in stone that every rpg must have an epic ending and epic journey? If that is what you want in an rpg that is fine, but every rpg does not have to fit that mode. In fact some of my favorite rpgs do not fit that mode. The purpose of Alternate Reality was to esacpe your kipnappers and return home. The purpose of Planescape Torment was to find out who you are. The purpose of BG1 was find out who is trying to kill you and why. 

The warden is big to you. I find both to be important for different reasons. You do not so there we will agree to disagree.

I'm not arguing about epic vs non-epic (though an "epic" feeling is certainly necessary in a proper RPG, one that gets you immersed and completely into the world... doesn't matter how, combat (DkS), choices (TW2), exploration (Skyrim), plot/characters/scale (DA:O)....

I'm simply saying Warden did important stuff and made choices that mattered.
Not "TO ME". That is FACT.
His choices shaped the world. FACT.

Hawke's choices shaped absolutely nothing and meant absolutely nothing.
In fact, as a slap in the face, multiple times in the game your choices are blatantly slapped in your face as unimportant (murder thingy, Orsino, Anders, Meredith).
His direct effect on the world was that he quelled the Qunari rebellion.
That's it. Absolutely nothing else.

[Renmiri1]

The problem with "Epic", "World Changing" adventures is that they.. change the world.

When you want another chapter of the story on the same world, you run out of things to change, while keeping the story believable.

What could "Warden 2" do ? End another Blight right after the first blight was done ? Reunite another country plunged into civil war, a civil war "Warden 1" missed ? Find other centuries old order to bring back from the brink of extinction ?

DA2 starts another civil war so maybe DA3 can be "Epic" again for you. But there was simply no way to do a sequel to DAO in the same scale as DAO, while taking place in the same world and the same period.

[Corto81]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The problem with "Epic", "World Changing" adventures is that they.. change the world.

When you want another chapter of the story on the same world, you run out of things to change, while keeping the story believable.

What could "Warden 2" do ? End another Blight right after the first blight was done ? Reunite another country plunged into civil war, a civil war "Warden 1" missed ? Find other centuries old order to bring back from the brink of extinction ?

DA2 starts another civil war so maybe DA3 can be "Epic" again for you. But there was simply no way to do a sequel to DAO in the same scale as DAO, while taking place in the same world and the same period.

Again, it doesnt have to be "epic" in scale (saving the world).

It does have to be epic in how you can perceive, how you can immerse yourself into it, etc.
BG series, Witcher series, ES series, etc....
None of those games went for "less-is-more", "button-awesome" approach to their sequels, they all built on the success of the original and tried to improve.
They didn't reduce the scope or diallute their stories to the point where noone even knows what the hell the beginning has to do with the end.
None of those games stripped their series of the RPG elements the originals had and called it "innovative" in order to appeal to the non-RPG audience.
And somewhere along those lines, DA2 was developed, sadly.

Kirkwall was a tiny, bland city I never cared about.
Filled with bland, pointless people.
Without a coherent plot. And with glaring plot holes and ridiculous plot twists.
In which Hawke was basically a bystander at the wrong (or right) place at the wrong (or right) time.

...

Meh.
Without getting into it anymore, FACTS are:
Warden shaped the world HE knew (doesn't have to be the whole world). That is important because it's a computer role-playing game, and people basically want to play grand adventures in those, mostly.
Hawke did basically nothing.

[jbrand2002uk]

A game is meant to be played not to massage your ego into boosting your low self esteem bigger isnt always better I can think of dozens of 2.0ltr 4cyl euro cars that will blow the socks off of most american muscle cars with 7.0ltr V8's DAO may be big alas its story is tedious the combat slow and The Warden has about as much personality and expression as a plank of wood

[Renmiri1]

DAO is a good game. It is one of the best renditions of the story made popular by Lord of the Rings: assemble a team with elves and mages to defeat evil and save the world.

But it is a very cliche story. I'm tired of it. DAO was fun and exceptionally well done but I've played, read, watched dozens of variations of the thing already. And the LotR trilogy book is still better. Well.. it doesn't let me romance Aragorn (Vigo <3!!!!)  but other than that the books pwn anything that came after 

I loved DA2 innovations. It gave us an adventure in the same world, with nunaced characters and nuanced story.  No black and white evil x good. Every character is flawed including the PC. But every character is capable of epic things, particularly the PC.

Even Tolkien failed at that. Have you ever tried reading Silmarrillion ?  Writing a sequel to Epic World Changing Rah Rah We be Hero's Forever is not easy. DA2 was a very good attempt. Pity they cut corners on dungeons and art. Story and combat were a big improvement IMHO. Well.. let me qualify it: "good original story" >> "excellent cloned story" to me.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 28 août 2012 - 02:14 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Thats the main problem I have with DAO a cliche story would be acceptable if the supporting elements were any good but alas they're not the Protag is dull and lifeless it doesnt matter how much personality you inject into the Warden when they just stand there like a statue with a blank face and then there's the combat, the finishing moves are all good and well but the combat pacing is way to slow that feels like a chore rather than fun.

Then Finally there's the stability of the game even patched up to date with all the latest bug fixes and drivers its still so prone to CTD or lockup that there are times I would swear its made by Bethseda and not Bioware.

DA2 has its flaws granted however the combat is much more fun the story alot less cliche'd, the protag finally acts like a living creature instead of a stiff corpse and from version 1.0 it was stable and reliable and after the latest updates mostly bug free

[Corto81]

Renmiri1 wrote...

DAO is a good game. It is one of the best renditions of the story made popular by Lord of the Rings: assemble a team with elves and mages to defeat evil and save the world.

But it is a very cliche story. I'm tired of it. DAO was fun and exceptionally well done but I've played, read, watched dozens of variations of the thing already. And the LotR trilogy book is still better. Well.. it doesn't let me romance Aragorn (Vigo <3!!!!)  but other than that the books pwn anything that came after 

I loved DA2 innovations. It gave us an adventure in the same world, with nunaced characters and nuanced story.  No black and white evil x good. Every character is flawed including the PC. But every character is capable of epic things, particularly the PC.

Even Tolkien failed at that. Have you ever tried reading Silmarrillion ?  Writing a sequel to Epic World Changing Rah Rah We be Hero's Forever is not easy. DA2 was a very good attempt. Pity they cut corners on dungeons and art. Story and combat were a big improvement IMHO. Well.. let me qualify it: "good original story" >> "excellent cloned story" to me.

I really think people talking merely about the "cliche DA:O" story have completely missed the point.

The "cliche" story (gather troops to defeat ultimate evil) is merely an overlaying plot to the real stories.
The Daelish Elves and what happened there.
Orzammar and the dwarven confrontation and the mystery of the Deep Roads.
Redcliffe and the evil in the castle etc.
The Magi Tower and the Right of Annulment.
The Urn, what it means, how you see it, what you do with it, etc.
And most of all, the political conftronation in Ferelden, what Loghain and Arl Howe do and what they believe they were doing etc.

Every single one of those story line beats Hawke's "story" into a bloody pulp.
And in your every decision you can be the good guy or the bad guy. Ultimately, your goal is to kill the Archedemon, but whether you do it to save the world, someone you love or your own selfish skin is something completely different.
You can RP good or evil, your choices have an effect on the world and what happens to it.

Good vs Evil is DA:O is just a basis for the game. Every single story line in the game has multiple choices and how you want to go about it.
Kill the Magi or side with them?
Destroy the Elves, kill the werewolves, cure curse?
Defend Redcliffe, leave it to rot?
Cure Aemon or not? Save Connor through sacrifice or lyrium ritual?
etc etc.
In the end , you can even sacrifice yourself by refusing the Morrigan ritual etc.

...

Puh-lease.

DA:O is more "grey" than DA2 is bland.
And that's to say, a LOT.

I have no idea what was the "epic" thing Hawke's capable off, what you're mentioning there.
My Hawke killed a dragon once. And defeated the Qunari.
Apart from that he ran errands for useless tools, quasi-friends who apparently only talk to you when they need something, and whatever I do or say doesn't matter in the end - events unfold exactly the same way regardless of your actions.

Modifié par Corto81, 28 août 2012 - 03:04 .