445 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Yeah, I get it, you wanna be epic in all your RPGs.. Just how you propose to do that after the Blight ended, the civil war on Ferelden has ben stopped, the new Orzammar king has been crowned , the old Dalish curse has been settled and the Ashes found ?

You got similar quests in DA2 but they could not be "Epic "and world changing because you just had finished saving and changing the world. To do so AGAIN only a few years after would made all the sacrifice of your Warden moot. This is what you don't seem to get 

But cheer up, Hawke and Anders managed to stir up a new civil war, and it seems the veil will be thorn so we will not get a new Blight but demons will rain from the sky instead. And I'm sure we will get to crown someone in Orlais or Antiva. Now we just need another sacred relic to pose for the Urn of Ashes and you will be all set!

All indications point to us getting a new DAO clone in DA3. But I wouldn't hold my breath for DA4 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 28 août 2012 - 04:30 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Again, that's all pure speculation on your end. I could say Meredith would have stepped up and killed the Arishok. Or that that mercenary would have killed the Viscount's son and told him the Qunari did it, which would lead to the Qunari being expelled from Kirkwall before the city's guard was stretched too thin.

It's not much of a stretch to say that Meredith could not have defeated the Arishok. Even with the lyrium idol — which gave her a near godlike level of power — she could not beat Hawke, who was able to best the Arishok in single combat. She was no doubt an impressive warrior, but her templar abilities are next to useless against such an opponent.

And had the viscount tried to expel the qunari sooner, well, that would have resulted in them launching their take-over sooner and conquering the city. That is another way that Hawke's influence is felt, albeit in a smaller way.

Corto81 wrote...

That's taking stuff completely out of context or deliberately deluding yourself into thinking Hawke was big...

By the same logic, Jim the Milkman was the most important in Thedas because he introduced Duncan's mom to Duncan's father, and Duncan went on to find the GW who saved Ferelden.

How is anything I said out of context? We know that the Arishok called for the take-over of the city when he could no longer stand its corruption, but this only occured after various forces in the city had rallied to antagonize him as much as possible. That was the entire point of Sister Petrice's plot during Shepherding Wolves. Had she succeeded, it's entirely possible that the qunari's take-over of Kirkwall would have occured much sooner, especially since she would be encouraged by her earlier success. Why shouldn't it happen that way?

Corto81 wrote...

And I'm sorry, personal stories are nice and all, but this is an RPG.
An epic journey and an epic ending is what every GW had in DA:O.
His actions shaped the WORLD (yes, Hawke's actions can lead to Fenris living or dying or Isabela being handed to Qunari -  big whoop).

While the Warden undoubtedly saved many lives during the course of DAO, his/her influence on the world is smaller than you think. His influence was largely contained to Ferelden, and even there, the status quo proved stubbornly resilient. Elves and mages remained an oppressed under class, the boons he asks for ultimately amount to little, and casteless dwarves are still drawn into the Carta no matter who you place on the throne of Orzammar.

Ultimately, Hawke's story could not have happened if the Warden had not stopped the Blight. But to say he shaped the world — sadly, that is not the case.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 05:37 .

[Wulfram]

DA2 is very much an epic story, just one where the PC is a mere spectator. The world is far more different after DA2 than it is after DA:O

A less epic but more personal story that we could shape in meaningful ways would have been preferable. There's the shadow of it present in DA2, but it's drowned beneath the epic.

[FieryDove]

Rags to riches aka *rise to power* is not a cliche story? Really people saying that just proves you are just here to mess with people.

If, If and IF...all I see are if's.

If Isabella had not *done something* and been chased by the Qunari neither would have been caught in the storm nor landed in Kirkwall. So Isabella is the real villian here and Varric has you all fooled.

Anders was just an opportunist.

Hawke wasn't even there. No one heard Varric whisper at the end..."and then Hawke woke up!"

Varric is really good at this.

[thats1evildude]

FieryDove wrote...

Rags to riches aka *rise to power* is not a cliche story? Really people saying that just proves you are just here to mess with people.

It's pretty rare in the context of a fantasy setting. There's The Hobbit and … well, there may be others out there, but none that I'm aware of. It's always "THERE'S A BIG EVIL THING OVER THERE AND YOU NEED TO STAB IT 'TIL IT DIES GO GO GO."

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 06:11 .

[FieryDove]

thats1evildude wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Rags to riches aka *rise to power* is not a cliche story? Really people saying that just proves you are just here to mess with people.

It's pretty rare in the context of a fantasy setting. There's The Hobbit and … well, there may be others out there, but none that I'm aware of. It's always "THERE'S A BIG EVIL THING OVER THERE AND YOU NEED TO STAB IT 'TIL IT DIES GO GO GO."

Well we had to stab...two ebil things in da2...So ya it was different in that respect I'll grant that.

[Dave of Canada]

Originally, I expected Hawke to be considered important despite the contrary being portrayed because the entire story of Dragon Age 2 was about portraying Hawke in a humanising light despite all the legends and stories about what he or she has done.

The annoying part is, they seem to have made him/her completely irrelevent to the mage/templar war as Asunder portrays Kirkwall as being nothing more than a footnote in what launched the eventual Circle rebellion. The entire events of the second game was pretty much invalidated because the book was more important to what started everything.

Now Hawke seems entirely useless in everything, it begs the question of why Cassandra bothered to look for them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 août 2012 - 06:23 .

[thats1evildude]

FieryDove wrote...

Well we had to stab...two ebil things in da2...So ya it was different in that respect I'll grant that.

But it wasn't the end goal of the game. Stabbing ebil things is inevitable in fantasy; it wouldn't be a very fun adventure if you entered a dungeon and the most dangerous thing in it was magical ponies wanting to teach you an important lesson about friendship.

But in 99.9 per cent of all fantasy adventures, the entire point of the story is killing some ominously-named sorceror, dark lord or (in the case of DAO) evil dragon. When that is accomplished, the story ends. There is no true villain of DA2; there are simply bad circumstances.

Dave of Canada wrote...

The annoying part is, they seem to have made him/her completely irrelevent to the mage/templar war as Asunder portrays Kirkwall as being nothing more than a footnote in what launched the eventual Circle rebellion.

In trying to avoid stating how events in Kirkwall turned out beyond what must inevitably occur, Asunder unfortunately under-sells the impact of what happened in Kirkwall. But the devil is stil there in the details: for instance, the anger of the mage who tries to kill the Divine is based on the fact that she dissolved the College of Magi, which occured after the uprising in Kirkwall.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 06:30 .

[FieryDove]

thats1evildude wrote...

 it wouldn't be a very fun adventure if you entered a dungeon and the most dangerous thing in it was magical ponies wanting to teach you an important lesson about friendship.

It wouldn't be fun for you. I would buy that game.

Ok I'll stop now...my snark meter exploded. sigh

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

How about Aladdin? Or any number of children's stories. The "rise to power" story is just the "improve your life" story. It's not at all unique in any setting.

Good point!  I had forgotten about the tale of Aladdin, though I'll note that the Disney version did end with him defeating Jafar, an immensely powerful sorceror out to do various bad things.

BrotherWarth wrote...

It took your entire crew to beat Meredith. Hawke can kill the Arishok by himself. Your logic is nonsensical.

My logic is sound, Brother Warth. You might recallt that Meredith didn't have use of the idol even by the end of Act 2. My point was that she still couldn't beat Hawke even with the Idol, so a non-empowered Meredith doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating the Arishok.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And in Act 1 the city guard was not stretched as thin as it was is Act 2. The Viscount blatantly explains that. Had the Qunari mishap happened in Act 1 they would have been expelled.

Your memory here is faulty, Brother Warth. The viscount says that they don't have the resources to expel the qunari without destroying half the city; he says nothing about the city guard being stretched too thin. If anything, the guard would be considerably weaker in Act 1, as Jeven was a terrible captain who sacrificed his own men to pass information on to the Coterie.

I'll eat humble pie if you can point to the dialogue where the viscount mentions that the guard has been weakened, but I believe you've made a mistake here.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 06:57 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

She had the idol in Act 2. She just hadn't turned it into a sword yet. Again, you're assuming things based on nothing.

I'm assuming nothing. She had the idol, but she didn't have access to its power. If she had, don't you think she'd have used it against the qunari?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 07:07 .

[Sylvianus]

Dave of Canada wrote...
The annoying part is, they seem to have made him/her completely irrelevent to the mage/templar war as Asunder portrays Kirkwall as being nothing more than a footnote in what launched the eventual Circle rebellion. The entire events of the second game was pretty much invalidated because the book was more important to what started everything.

Now Hawke seems entirely useless in everything, it begs the question of why Cassandra bothered to look for them.

Yep.

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

She didn't have to. You're making assumptions.
Again.

Right. She was holding that power back in case some OTHER army of heathens tried to take over the city that day. Or maybe she'd put fifty sovereigns in the templar betting pool on the viscount getting decapitated and she was just sandbagging it until then.

But you are correct: even if Meredith had access to the lyrium idol's power, she didn't need it to repel the qunari. That's because Hawke had already defeated the invasion on his own.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 07:36 .

[Realmzmaster]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I'll take a page out of your book. Meredith wanted to take over the city so she kept the power of the idol to herself so the Viscount could be killed. She was going to use the idol to kill the Arishok after he killed the Viscount, but Hawke stepped in and ruined her plan.

See how annoying that is?

Actually that would be interesting. The battle against Meredith would have started sooner and Hawke could side with Meredith, side with the Arishok or take them both out. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 août 2012 - 07:45 .

[thats1evildude]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I'll take a page out of your book. Meredith wanted to take over the city so she kept the power of the idol to herself so the Viscount could be killed. She was going to use the idol to kill the Arishok after he killed the Viscount, but Hawke stepped in and ruined her plan.

Why would I be annoyed by that? If anything, that theory (if true) would demonstrates Hawke's importance within the story. If Meredith had used the idol to defeat the Arishok and was openly using the idol by the end of Act, 2, that would have changed the story greatly in Act 3, since she would have near-absolute control of the city.

It was one thing for Orsino to oppose Meredith when she was just the head of the templars, but what about when she's marching armies of living statues through the streets? I shudder to think what Kirkwall would look under a lyrium-addled Meredith's iron grip, since there's literally nothing that could stop her from doing whatever she liked.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 08:05 .

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

You got similar quests in DA2 but they could not be "Epic "and world changing because you just had finished saving and changing the world. To do so AGAIN only a few years after would made all the sacrifice of your Warden moot. This is what you don't seem to get 

That makes no sense. That's like saying "America may as well have not gotten involved in WWI and tipped the scales since WWII was right around the corner. It makes America's efforts in WWI moot." Seriously, that is just dumb.

??? I have no idea what you are trying to paraphrase here but your WW1 and WW2 mention brings my point home: There was NO WAY that a second world War could be waged less than 10 years after WW1. Germany was destroyed, their economy in shambles, they had no weapons or ships or planes to do it. Took them almost 50 years to be able to wage WW2. Their first 10 years were spent in dire misery. The allies weren't in much better shape either. Some places bear the scars of WW1 until today, let alone in 1920!

Yet ONE YEAR after our Warden defeats the Blight you want another "World Scale" drama. It ain't happening. If it does it means our Warden didn't do his job which was to SAVE THE WORLD. You just can't have  world scale "rah rah epicness" TWICE IN 10 YEARS  

BrotherWarth wrote...

It took your entire crew to beat Meredith. Hawke can kill the Arishok by himself. 

 

Dunno about your team but mine beat Meredith in 5 seconds. What took my team a while and was hard was to defeat her army of lyrium powered moving giant statues 

Had she had that power during the Qunari rebellion she could have killed Hawke (let Hawke die on the sarebas attack ?) and then killed the Arishok and she would have taken power easily. She didn't hence she didn't have the power.
You need to pay more atttention to detail 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 28 août 2012 - 08:23 .

[thats1evildude]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You just can't have  world scale "rah rah epicness" TWICE less than a decade apart  

Well, you can, but you do eventually run into the problem of the shock value wearing off. Buffy the Vampire Slayer kinda had this issue; once Buffy had saved the world five or six times, the threat of the First Evil in the seventh season didn't seem like a big deal, especially since The First Evil was a useless ****.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 août 2012 - 08:19 .