56 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

The error bw made was that none of the ME2 character come back as squadmates, not even temporal.

Mordin and Legion are the only ok characters because they were part of an arc. If there was a a Cerberus Arc it could have given a better interaction for Miranda, Jacob and Jack. I still think that leaving Miranda out of a Cerberus arc (and even more important out of cronos) is what made her a disappointment in ME3. Not to mention how bad they treated all the squadmates from ME2.

James and EDI weren't necessary for ME3. We could have one ex-Cerberus back (Miranda or jacob) and a "freelance" character back (Jack, Samara or Thane).

Too bad that bw lacks the integrity to do so.

[LanceSolous13]

Well, actually, James and EDI are needed should you have killed everyone you possibly could leaving you with Liara, James, and EDI; An Adept, a Soldier, and a Tech. Jevik is there if you got DLC.

[David7204]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

The "they could be dead" thing is BS.

Mordin is one of the easiest people to die in the Suicide Mission and look at his ME3 role.

Legion has a huge role in ME3.

Garrus and Tali are squaddies.

"They could be dead" doesn't hold water.

Yes. It does. First of all, the complexity rises exponentially with each additional character. So brining back two is not that big a challenge. Bringing back twelve is.

Mordin and Legion's conversations are restricted to 'hear-it-or-don't' conversations with Shepard, Garrus, or Tali, not conversations with crew members from ME 2 that are possibly dead.

[David7204]

samb wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I disagree. I think you're severely underestimating these obstacles.

Look, if you're writing a simple conversation between two squadmembers to address a certain event, you'd have to write and code it a lot of different ways to make sure that every player with at least two surviving squadmembers hear it. If you don't do that, players with some dead squadmates wouldn't get any conversation, which is no good. And that's one two-person conversation, with no other factors to consider. So it might not be 4,000 possibilities all the time, but it would be a lot.

With 12 squadmates alive or dead, you'd have to write 66 different variations of the conversation, I believe, to make sure every player can hear it. Otherwise some players get screwed over. Then you'd have to code in priority to which two squadmembers discuss it depending on who is alive and who isn't.

I think you are overestimating its complexity. Think about most of the random conversations that you overhear, especially between crew mates. You Garrus and James talking about war stories, EDI and Joker analyzing the ins and outs of a racist joke, Javik and Garrus in the lounge talking about the reapers, a drunk Tali telling Javik she knows he is really fond of the crew. All of it is non consequential. It is almost never about a certein event. And I feel that is deliberate in order to avoid what you are talking about. 

James, EDI, and Javik, and Joker are all guarenteed to be alive. The ME 2 characters aren't. It's a completely different playing field.

And what they're discussing doesn't matter. What matters is you're trying to program in a guarenteed conversation. The player just completed a mission and you want them to hear something between squadmates. Doesn't matter what.

Modifié par David7204, 26 août 2012 - 08:06 .

[Skullheart]

The "could be dead" thing is totally bs. According to the feedback published by bw, JAcob and Miranda were the characters whom ost survived the SM, and we saw what happened to them, just cameos.

[David7204]

I don't know what the hell "ost" is supposed to mean besides original soundtrack.

Modifié par David7204, 26 août 2012 - 08:05 .

[LanceSolous13]

Garrus is easy because his interactions don't change depending on Loyalty and his death changes only a handful of scenes.

On top of that, They had to record 12 versions of the same conversation for every character in ME2. They change all sorts of small things in ME2 depending on small things. Weather Conrad was Paragon'd or Renegade'd. Gainna Parasinni. Shealla. Helana Blake. Fist even appears if he survived ME1.

Its honestly not as complex as you make it out to be. Not ever single dialogue depends on weather a character was loyal, unloyal, or dead. Sure, certain conversations, but definatly not the entire game.

The entire conversation doesn't need 66 different variations because "Oh. This is Miranda's mission. But, wait, what should she say if Kasumi's dead but Samara's alive?" No. Its the same conversation which only changes when subject from the LM Comes up and then a line swap ever few mins to remind you that you're squadmates can speak and they all say nearly the same thing.

If subject from an LM comes up, it isn't discussed if the LM was imcomplete. If the character is dead, the conversation probably wouldn't be happening in the first place in which a character like Wreav or Paddok Wikks or Admieral Rann is used as replacement.

[LanceSolous13]

David7204 wrote...

I don't know what the hell "ost" is supposed to mean besides original soundtrack.

He meant to say 'most'. Its the most logical word to be there based on the sentence.

[Dragon_Claw]

There wasn´t room for Miranda´s ego...  

[David7204]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Garrus is easy because his interactions don't change depending on Loyalty and his death changes only a handful of scenes.

On top of that, They had to record 12 versions of the same conversation for every character in ME2. They change all sorts of small things in ME2 depending on small things. Weather Conrad was Paragon'd or Renegade'd. Gainna Parasinni. Shealla. Helana Blake. Fist even appears if he survived ME1.

Its honestly not as complex as you make it out to be. Not ever single dialogue depends on weather a character was loyal, unloyal, or dead. Sure, certain conversations, but definatly not the entire game.

The entire conversation doesn't need 66 different variations because "Oh. This is Miranda's mission. But, wait, what should she say if Kasumi's dead but Samara's alive?" No. Its the same conversation which only changes when subject from the LM Comes up and then a line swap ever few mins to remind you that you're squadmates can speak and they all say nearly the same thing.

If subject from an LM comes up, it isn't discussed if the LM was imcomplete. If the character is dead, the conversation probably wouldn't be happening in the first place in which a character like Wreav or Paddok Wikks or Admieral Rann is used as replacement.

Which means players who only had a few squadmates survive the suicide mission would hear almost nothing or even completely nothing to indicate squadmates are aware of each other's existance on the Normandy. Almost all conversations would be gone because there would almost always be at least one of the necessary squadmates dead.

Modifié par David7204, 26 août 2012 - 08:13 .

[LanceSolous13]

Then that's the price they pay for getting some one killed.

[samb]

 So it would be a huge hurdle because I wanted to hear Ashley marvel at Jack's poetry? Like its really difficult to program a flag where that convo happens only if both of them are alive and after a certain mission?  

[o Ventus]

Skullheart wrote...

The "could be dead" thing is totally bs. According to the feedback published by bw, JAcob and Miranda were the characters whom ost survived the SM, and we saw what happened to them, just cameos.

But Mordin and Legion, who have abysmal survival rates, have monumental roles in their respective arcs.

I shouldn't say that. I mean to say, they actually have ME3 arcs. I can't really compare them to Miranda and Jacob, who are just sort of there.

[iSousek]

@David

First, can I please see how you cam up with those huge numbers.

Second, the reason why you are wrong is this. Implementing those characters takes the same amount it took to implement every other character since those characters are independant. Wrex/Wreav and Kaiden/Ashley were hardest to implement because their roles are interdependant. Other characters are "stand alone complexes", easily replaced by other "stand alone" characters.

Also, cosidering how all of ME 2 characters are implemented in the game, no matter all the bazillion possibilities of Suicide Mission, and they have independant roles, I have to say that reasons for not implementing more of ME 2 characters lies somewhere else.

Modifié par iSousek, 26 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[CptData]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

The "they could be dead" thing is BS.

Mordin is one of the easiest people to die in the Suicide Mission and look at his ME3 role.

Legion has a huge role in ME3.

Garrus and Tali are squaddies.

"They could be dead" doesn't hold water.

This:

Garrus had the largest role in the game, right next to Liara (the only one with a full plot armor throughout the series). Well, Tali not so. 
Mordin can die rather easily in ME2 if you put him in the squad holding off the Collectors. The only way to get Mordin out alive is to have him with you in the final battle - or if he's going back to the Normandy as escort for the rest of the crew.
And he still has a major role in ME3. Same for Wrex, who can die (and gets replaced by Wreav), same for Legion (you can decide NOT to recruit him).

"They could be dead" does not apply.
Of course, it's always a matter of resources and I think BW simply had not enough time and money to create full story arcs for ALL ME2 characters. In fact, I believe Miranda had a much bigger plot in their story draft - until BW had to cut the edges and reduce it to what we have now.

Also the "they could be dead" story applies on Ashley and Kaidan. Actually, those characters can be removed from the game permanently in three occasions: Virmire, the Coup, re-recruitment scene. If BW ever had a plot for Ash or Kaidan after the coup, they simply removed it entirely. No other squadmate feels more like an extra than those two - which is sad, given the fact BW tried to construct one of the strongest emotional connections with them in ME1 and ME2. That gave a lot of fans the idea Ash/Kaidan are going to play a major role in ME3, which simply isn't the case. They came back for only one reason: the romance.
Nothing else.

I say, if BW had been granted one more year to finish ME3, all ME2 characters would have seen more action plus more justice for the VS.

[fainmaca]

David7204 wrote...

I disagree. I think you're severely underestimating these obstacles.

Look, if you're writing a simple conversation between two squadmembers to address a certain event, you'd have to write and code it a lot of different ways to make sure that every player with at least two surviving squadmembers hear it. If you don't do that, players with some dead squadmates wouldn't get any conversation, which is no good. And that's one two-person conversation, with no other factors to consider. So it might not be 4,000 possibilities all the time, but it would be a lot.

With 12 squadmates alive or dead, you'd have to write 66 different variations of the conversation, I believe, to make sure every player can hear it. Otherwise some players get screwed over. Then you'd have to code in priority to which two squadmembers discuss it depending on who is alive and who isn't.

But I'm not, because I have overcome these obstacles myself, at least from a scripting point of view.

The banter/conversations in the ME games follows a fairly simple formula: participant A instigates conversation in reaction to situation, participant B responds in their own unique way. Potentially have a couple of characters take the conversation further (i.e. in ME2, when you talk to Jack at the vista, Samara, Jacob, Grunt and Garrus comment on her words). Making sure that these characters have a line for that situation regardless of who instigates the conversation (i.e. give them a conversation instigation line and a response line) is not as complex as you seem to think. It isn't like you need unique lines for every conversation depending on who the squaddie is talking to. Granted you'd get 66 or whatever number it is permutations of the conversation, but that's done by combining a smaller number of lines. Just like how there are only 3 primary colours, but combining them in different ways makes the whole spectrum.

The only way this could possibly be complicated was if you tried to get the entire/ a large part of the squad talking amongst itself on the Normandy. As-is, Bioware never put more than a small group in the same room together.

Once again, you're throwing up numbers to shore up your views, but even these numbers never truly come into play.

[fainmaca]

David7204 wrote...
Which means players who only had a few squadmates survive the suicide mission would hear almost nothing or even completely nothing to indicate squadmates are aware of each other's existance on the Normandy. Almost all conversations would be gone because there would almost always be at least one of the necessary squadmates dead.

Oh dear. That would be a consequence, wouldn't it? We wouldn't want one of those in the game!

Of course you'd have a quieter ship if you got most of your crew killed! and you'd deserve it, as well. You can't expect a bustling atmosphere if you got almost everybody killed in the last game.

But, once again, you seem to overestimate the impact of a dead squadmate to the system. It is possible to have the newer members of the crew talk to each other as well, you know? Much like Bioware did anyway. How much interaction did the VS have compared to the guaranteed survivors? In fact, I'd say almost all of the ambient dialogue in ME3 was between guaranteed crewmembers (Vega and Steve's fratboy atmosphere in the Hangar, Joker and EDI's budding romance, Liara and Glitch, Sam and Allers). Conversations between possible casualties are good and add flavour to the Normandy, but losing them doesn't turn the ship into a silent husk.

[chidingewe8036]

CptData wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

The "they could be dead" thing is BS.

Mordin is one of the easiest people to die in the Suicide Mission and look at his ME3 role.

Legion has a huge role in ME3.

Garrus and Tali are squaddies.

"They could be dead" doesn't hold water.

This:

Garrus had the largest role in the game, right next to Liara (the only one with a full plot armor throughout the series). Well, Tali not so. 
Mordin can die rather easily in ME2 if you put him in the squad holding off the Collectors. The only way to get Mordin out alive is to have him with you in the final battle - or if he's going back to the Normandy as escort for the rest of the crew.
And he still has a major role in ME3. Same for Wrex, who can die (and gets replaced by Wreav), same for Legion (you can decide NOT to recruit him).

"They could be dead" does not apply.
Of course, it's always a matter of resources and I think BW simply had not enough time and money to create full story arcs for ALL ME2 characters. In fact, I believe Miranda had a much bigger plot in their story draft - until BW had to cut the edges and reduce it to what we have now.

Also the "they could be dead" story applies on Ashley and Kaidan. Actually, those characters can be removed from the game permanently in three occasions: Virmire, the Coup, re-recruitment scene. If BW ever had a plot for Ash or Kaidan after the coup, they simply removed it entirely. No other squadmate feels more like an extra than those two - which is sad, given the fact BW tried to construct one of the strongest emotional connections with them in ME1 and ME2. That gave a lot of fans the idea Ash/Kaidan are going to play a major role in ME3, which simply isn't the case. They came back for only one reason: the romance.
Nothing else.

I say, if BW had been granted one more year to finish ME3, all ME2 characters would have seen more action plus more justice for the VS.

I agree with all the above

Bioware just half a**** the game, period, all other reasons given are irrelevant

End Thread

[Lucky Thirteen]

I think the problem is Bioware wanted to do a trilogy, had an idea what type of things would happen, but didn't plan out the story let alone have a clue how to handle the characters or carry any of it over three games. It's much easier to make a whole new cast with a new story instead of keep the same cast and develop them over three parts of a story. I don't think they've ever done several parts of a series with consistent characters. Everything they'd done in the past would just start with new characters, new protagonist, and new story, often in a pre-existing universe someone else made, such as Dungeon and Dragons and Star Wars. They gave up the sequels of Never Winter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic to another company to do.

The Dragon Age series so far looks to continue the process of starting each game with new characters and new story, while Jade Empire was completely abandoned.

I don't think they really wanted to do Mass Effect beyond ME3, that's why even looking at Drew Karpyshyn's idea for an ending is so very final and galaxy wide changing as the current endings are.

Mass Effect is done now, not because they messed up the third installment, but because Bioware is done with it and will move on to something else now.

[CptData]

^ well, the first trilogy is done for good, that's true. But I doubt they'll abandon the Mass Effect universe, not as long as EA has the idea they could milk the franchise for a while. So be prepared for:

- Mass Effect 4
-> new story, new characters, either centuries after Shepard's trilogy or at the same time, exploring other characters and stories not told yet.
Chances: Most likely

- Mass Effect Reboot
-> Shepard's story retold, hopefully with a better fleshed out story (less logic holes and issues, more character focused)
Chances: Possible, but not any time soon

- Mass Effect MMOG
-> Set at Shepard's time OR a century or two after his story.
Chances: Depending on MMOG market, currently very likely

- Mass Effect RTS
-> Shepard's time, Normandy is a hero unit, space and ground combat
Chances: Likely

[Ghost]

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It isn't a plot issue. It's a technical issue. I don't need a source for this. It's just logic. Adding in "random squad dialogue" that correctly takes into account the death and survival of characters for over 4,000 possible situations is not trivial. It's an immense and completely impractical amount of work. Not only that, it isn't creative work. It's assembly line writing. It's taking a piece of dialogue and making sure it works for every situation, one by one. The more characters are involved, the more complex it becomes. Javik does not apply at all because he's alive no matter what.

You know Bioware isn't a 10-man indie team with a fridge budget, right?

You know BioWare isn't a 200 man team with a hollywood budget, right?

[18 Brains]

Ghost1017 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

You know Bioware isn't a 10-man indie team with a fridge budget, right?

You know BioWare isn't a 200 man team with a hollywood budget, right?

Tell that to the millions spent/wasted in making TOR.

[iSousek]

Ghost1017 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It isn't a plot issue. It's a technical issue. I don't need a source for this. It's just logic. Adding in "random squad dialogue" that correctly takes into account the death and survival of characters for over 4,000 possible situations is not trivial. It's an immense and completely impractical amount of work. Not only that, it isn't creative work. It's assembly line writing. It's taking a piece of dialogue and making sure it works for every situation, one by one. The more characters are involved, the more complex it becomes. Javik does not apply at all because he's alive no matter what.

You know Bioware isn't a 10-man indie team with a fridge budget, right?

You know BioWare isn't a 200 man team with a hollywood budget, right?

BioWare has over 200 employees (in 2010. was around 800). Budget depends on EA which means that it can be a Hollywood budget.

[Mavqt]

Skullheart wrote...

The error bw made was that none of the ME2 character come back as squadmates, not even temporal.

Mordin and Legion are the only ok characters because they were part of an arc. If there was a a Cerberus Arc it could have given a better interaction for Miranda, Jacob and Jack. I still think that leaving Miranda out of a Cerberus arc (and even more important out of cronos) is what made her a disappointment in ME3. Not to mention how bad they treated all the squadmates from ME2.

James and EDI weren't necessary for ME3. We could have one ex-Cerberus back (Miranda or jacob) and a "freelance" character back (Jack, Samara or Thane).

Too bad that bw lacks the integrity to do so.

None of those you've mentioned fill the same roles as James (a soldier) and EDI (a techie).

Jacob = sentinal
Miranda = sentinal-ish
Jack = adept
Samara  = Adept
Thane = adept/infiltrator. (Maybe)

Modifié par mavqt, 26 août 2012 - 03:29 .