658 réponses à ce sujet

[me0120]

Used to test it pretty extensively. It is 75% (at least on gold). It does not work when the phantom is in cover, flipping over cover, climbing ladders, somersault-dropping from heights, staggered/in stasis/etc. 1337hax shooters probably also know that it stops working for a brief moment at the end of a phantom side flip dodge. Works against everyone's(?) projectile powers and all host hitscan weapons.

 

Follow-up on this...

 

It appears after killing way too many Phantoms by myself that their bubbled damage reduction isn't perfectly 75%. From what I've found:

 

Phantom + Barriers + Bubble = 75% DR

Phantom + Health and zero Barriers + Bubble = 0% DR

 

Any insight on this? Or is my Shuriken magical for killing a Phantom with full health in two bursts?

[corlist]

Hmmmm..... IIRC Cyonan had previously tested Tac Scan and said that it gives an inherent 7.5% at rank 1.  It follows that a Quarian Marksman with the full 25% should actually get 32.5%

 

Edit:  Thanks for the post.  It is great to see you guys back.

 

Strange. I did test tactical scan (at rank 1), just a few days ago in fact, and it was 15% as expected in the power screen. If it gave an some inherent or invisible 7.5% at rank 1 it would have been shown by the data no?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm very interested in that Electrical Hammer stuff!

[Tybo]

Follow-up on this...

 

It appears after killing way too many Phantoms by myself that their bubbled damage reduction isn't perfectly 75%. From what I've found:

 

Phantom + Barriers + Bubble = 75% DR

Phantom + Health and zero Barriers + Bubble = 0% DR

 

Any insight on this? Or is my Shuriken magical for killing a Phantom with full health in two bursts?

Phantoms shouldn't have DR when in their bubble.

 

Test data backing this is shown here

[corlist]

Follow-up on this...

 

It appears after killing way too many Phantoms by myself that their bubbled damage reduction isn't perfectly 75%. From what I've found:

 

Phantom + Barriers + Bubble = 75% DR

Phantom + Health and zero Barriers + Bubble = 0% DR

 

Any insight on this? Or is my Shuriken magical for killing a Phantom with full health in two bursts?

 

Were you the host when this happened?

 

*edit*

 

Actually, we found out that hitting the bubble of the phantom when you are off host will deal 100% damage with no DR to its barriers. If the phantom has no barriers left, health damage is inflicted instead.

[me0120]

Were you the host when this happened?

 

Yes. I'm remembering something I left out which is probably the key to what TyHW is correcting on. 

 

I think the significance is, when they take health damage through the bubble while still having Barriers they immediately flip, but when they take damage through the bubble with no Barriers they do not flip and receive damage reduction. This seems more like a behavioral phenomena. I have only been doing solos for the past couple of months so I've been paying a lot of attention to them.

 

Second Question, why can't my Javelin X GI take out a Phantom in one headshot on or off-host with near max damage and Warp/AP/Drill rounds on Plat solos? I see it all the time on other people's videos...Needs more experimenting

[corlist]

Yes. I'm remembering something I left out which is probably the key to what TyHW is correcting on. 

 

I think the significance is, when they take health damage through the bubble while still having Barriers they immediately flip, but when they take damage through the bubble with no Barriers they do not flip and receive damage reduction. This seems more like a behavioral phenomena. I have only been doing solos for the past couple of months so I've been paying a lot of attention to them.

 

Second Question, why can't my Javelin X GI take out a Phantom in one headshot on or off-host with near max damage and Warp/AP/Drill rounds on Plat solos? I see it all the time on other people's videos...Needs more experimenting

 

Mathematically, it should be impossible to kill a platinum phantom with one headshot when 75% DR is active without spamming thermal clip packs, especially when also considering the 75% shield gate. You might have gotten some random unlucky DR. If you are shooting through a bubble instead, you might not have gotten a double hit.

[Koenig888]

Strange. I did test tactical scan (at rank 1), just a few days ago in fact, and it was 15% as expected in the power screen. If it gave an some inherent or invisible 7.5% at rank 1 it would have been shown by the data no?

 

That is for someone wiser than me in the arcane ways of ME3 mechanics to answer.

 

The quote from Cyonan's post is as follows -

 

"TC's sniper evo and debuffs aren't actually additive with each other, what would happen is:

QMI: 2523.758 * 1.25 * 1.325 = 4179.97

GI: 2741.86 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 4112.79

The 1.325 comes from Tactical Scan's evolution 1, which increases weapon damage by an additional 7.5% that is not shown in the tooltip for damage taken increase, making it 25 + 7.5 = 32.5%."

 

The link is http://social.biowar...ndex/17511556/2 and Cyonan's post is in the middle of the page.

Edit:  It is possible to reconcile the two sets of results if the inherent 7.5% only applies to weapon damage, similar to rank 4a.

 

Edit:  You were right.  I got confused and mistook Cyonan's evolution 1 for rank 1.

[me0120]

Mathematically, it should be impossible to kill a platinum phantom with one headshot when 75% DR is active without spamming thermal clip packs, especially when also considering the 75% shield gate. You might have gotten some random unlucky DR. If you are shooting through a bubble instead, you might not have gotten a double hit.

 

I mean through the bubble. I'll come back to this thread after I'm doing with my physics work...and I test some things again.

[corlist]

EDIT: by the way... The fact that the incendiary glitch only works with the hammer if you use the hammer first... Is there anything like that with other powers too? Cause I've always heard people advising to warp before you fire your gun, which always striked me as I always thought it's not really necessary to do it in that order... But then again, I have no experience at all with that glitch, so...

 

Tested it a bit with the classic warp and incendiary ammo. Contrary to what Bioware said last year or something, it only glitch stacks when incendiary ammo is applied afterwards.

 

You could even do a warp then shoot incendiary then warp again, there will be 2 concurrent DoTs running - one glitched incendiary and one normal warp DoT.

 

*edit* In fact, if you shoot the target with incendiary ammo first before using warp, no incendiary glitch stacking with warp can occur until incendiary ammo runs out, no matter how many times you shoot or use warp.

 

This explains the somewhat "normal" performance of incendiary ammo against the possessed praetorian in this video, everything else was getting absolutely demolished.

[capn233]

I wonder if that non-combination is a bug of a bug... given that their goal was to combine DOT effects to run less calculations.

[Deerber]

Tested it a bit with the classic warp and incendiary ammo. Contrary to what Bioware said last year or something, it only glitch stacks when incendiary ammo is applied afterwards.

 

You could even do a warp then shoot incendiary then warp again, there will be 2 concurrent DoTs running - one glitched incendiary and one normal warp DoT.

 

*edit* In fact, if you shoot the target with incendiary ammo first before using warp, no incendiary glitch stacking with warp can occur until incendiary ammo runs out, no matter how many times you shoot or use warp.

 

This explains the somewhat "normal" performance of incendiary ammo against the possessed praetorian in this video, everything else was getting absolutely demolished.

 

Yes, indeed it does. Thanks for doing this, it clarified a point I always wondered about. Sadly, I'm afraid I'm guilty of having shared wrong information then... Since I always kept the line of "until proven otherwise, shooting or warping first, it's the same". Sorry about that, everyone 

 

Used to test it pretty extensively. It is 75% (at least on gold). It does not work when the phantom is in cover, flipping over cover, climbing ladders, somersault-dropping from heights, staggered/in stasis/etc. 1337hax shooters probably also know that it stops working for a brief moment at the end of a phantom side flip dodge. Works against everyone's(?) projectile powers and all host hitscan weapons.

 

Thank you for the answer... However, you're not telling me anything I didn't already know, sadly.

 

The problem is, even though the tests you guys did provide a good basis for what happens in my experience... The damage is not always consistent with them. Take a look at this vid by Djeck, for example. Very old, but still. He's soloing, and using a BW. He forces a Phantom into bubble and then gets a clean headshot... Result, one health bar of damage. Now. If we go by your tests... What should happen is that...

 

- he deals direct health damage, check

 

- he deals 25% of normal damage, no check here. Although there's no testing equipment available, the difference in the numbers is big enough that the bars of damage are a good enough indicator. Let's do some approximate math:

 

BW damage: let's say 1000. It's actually more with weapon passives and whatnot, but let's keep it simple. Headshot BW damage: 2500. Predicted Phantom health damage: 2500/4 = 625.

 

Now, platinum phantoms have 2194 health. So that means that each bar is worth 220, and that 625 should be worth almost 3 bars... Not just one. As I said, the difference is big enough for bars to be decent indicators.

 

 

I would not even pull this out if it wasn't for my experience agreeing with it, and saying that sometimes, seemengly randomly, the Phantoms' on host DR skyrockets from the "standard" (and still bullshit-ty) 75% to something even higher, which basically turns them into unkillable stabbing machines. That is, until you manage to catch her with her DR off. But still, it's *very* annoying when using a full auto weapon, which is not able to deal significant damage in that fraction of a second after she flips.

 

Lately, I've turned the DR off completely via coalesced.win... And still, sometimes, Phantoms seem to behave weirdly as far as damage taken goes, such as surviving a saber headshot with their barriers down.

 

... Am I seeing things? 

[me0120]

Tested it a bit with the classic warp and incendiary ammo. Contrary to what Bioware said last year or something, it only glitch stacks when incendiary ammo is applied afterwards.

 

You could even do a warp then shoot incendiary then warp again, there will be 2 concurrent DoTs running - one glitched incendiary and one normal warp DoT.

 

*edit* In fact, if you shoot the target with incendiary ammo first before using warp, no incendiary glitch stacking with warp can occur until incendiary ammo runs out, no matter how many times you shoot or use warp.

 

This explains the somewhat "normal" performance of incendiary ammo against the possessed praetorian in this video, everything else was getting absolutely demolished.

 

 

I thought that was from the Incendiary -> Fire Explosion DoT overwrite? Wasn't it said that Fire Explosion DoT triggered by Incendiary ammo prevents Incendiary ammo from being applied until the DoT duration ended?

 

So, if this is true it brings up two related questions. First, can you can shoot Shields and Barriers with Incendiary ammo and if you Warp before the Shields/Barriers are depleted then continue again applying Incendiary ammo, how does it stack? I'm guessing you'll have two separate DoT's once you get to the armor, one for the ammo and one for the Warp and the ammo the Warp collects. And the second question, is this how it worked prior to the tech explosion buff that allowed tech explosions on non-killing moves?

[me0120]

Yes, indeed it does. Thanks for doing this, it clarified a point I always wondered about. Sadly, I'm afraid I'm guilty of having shared wrong information then... Since I always kept the line of "until proven otherwise, shooting or warping first, it's the same". Sorry about that, everyone 

 

 

Thank you for the answer... However, you're not telling me anything I didn't already know, sadly.

 

The problem is, even though the tests you guys did provide a good basis for what happens in my experience... The damage is not always consistent with them. Take a look at this vid by Djeck, for example. Very old, but still. He's soloing, and using a BW. He forces a Phantom into bubble and then gets a clean headshot... Result, one health bar of damage. 

I would not even pull this out if it wasn't for my experience agreeing with it, and saying that sometimes, seemengly randomly, the Phantoms' on host DR skyrockets from the "standard" (and still bullshit-ty) 75% to something even higher, which basically turns them into unkillable stabbing machines. That is, until you manage to catch her with her DR off. But still, it's *very* annoying when using a full auto weapon, which is not able to deal significant damage in that fraction of a second after she flips.

 

Lately, I've turned the DR off completely via coalesced.win... And still, sometimes, Phantoms seem to behave weirdly as far as damage taken goes, such as surviving a saber headshot with their barriers down.

 

... Am I seeing things? 

 

Deerber this is what I was talking about. I have a guess at what's happening...

 

If you force a bubble while she has Barriers I think she forces a movement animation overwrite and receives damage reduction. From my experience if you take her Barriers down and then force a bubble she receives no damage reduction. I have seriously killed a lot of Phatoms 1 on 1 on host lately and that's my best guess. It has gotten to the point that if she has Barriers up and forces a bubble I ignore her because she'll take a little bit of damage, keep all her Barriers, and turn invisible for regeneration.

[Deerber]

I thought that was from the Incendiary -> Fire Explosion DoT overwrite? Wasn't it said that Fire Explosion DoT triggered by Incendiary ammo prevents Incendiary ammo from being applied until the DoT duration ended?

 

No, that only happens if you detonate the FE on the last tick of IA. That is, almost never.

[corlist]

Thank you for the answer... However, you're not telling me anything I didn't already know, sadly.

 

The problem is, even though the tests you guys did provide a good basis for what happens in my experience... The damage is not always consistent with them. Take a look at this vid by Djeck, for example. Very old, but still. He's soloing, and using a BW. He forces a Phantom into bubble and then gets a clean headshot... Result, one health bar of damage. Now. If we go by your tests... What should happen is that...

 

- he deals direct health damage, check

 

- he deals 25% of normal damage, no check here. Although there's no testing equipment available, the difference in the numbers is big enough that the bars of damage are a good enough indicator. Let's do some approximate math:

 

BW damage: let's say 1000. It's actually more with weapon passives and whatnot, but let's keep it simple. Headshot BW damage: 2500. Predicted Phantom health damage: 2500/4 = 625.

 

Now, platinum phantoms have 2194 health. So that means that each bar is worth 220, and that 625 should be worth almost 3 bars... Not just one. As I said, the difference is big enough for bars to be decent indicators.

 

 

I would not even pull this out if it wasn't for my experience agreeing with it, and saying that sometimes, seemengly randomly, the Phantoms' on host DR skyrockets from the "standard" (and still bullshit-ty) 75% to something even higher, which basically turns them into unkillable stabbing machines. That is, until you manage to catch her with her DR off. But still, it's *very* annoying when using a full auto weapon, which is not able to deal significant damage in that fraction of a second after she flips.

 

Lately, I've turned the DR off completely via coalesced.win... And still, sometimes, Phantoms seem to behave weirdly as far as damage taken goes, such as surviving a saber headshot with their barriers down.

 

... Am I seeing things? 

 

 

Direct health damage via bubble hit can never inflict headshot damage, only a penetrating hit that also hits the head will do so. Using the same 1000 damage estimate on a BW shot, it would've inflicted about 250 damage to the health directly.

 

Sad to say I can't say very much regarding phantom host/off-host DR stuff. It may be because that we test with an "artificial" phantom which makes the strange things described to not happen (or at least, I did not notice anything unusual happen). This is because when we test, we use a script to instantly regenerate the phantom to full health whenever *edit* it takes health damage *edit*, which could break some of the triggers involved with flipping and random DR application. Testing for extended periods of time does indeed break the AI for certain enemies. We could test more, but it would probably be a waste of time testing for pseudo-random events when the code could be examined instead.

 

I thought that was from the Incendiary -> Fire Explosion DoT overwrite? Wasn't it said that Fire Explosion DoT triggered by Incendiary ammo prevents Incendiary ammo from being applied until the DoT duration ended?

 

So, if this is true it brings up two related questions. First, can you can shoot Shields and Barriers with Incendiary ammo and if you Warp before the Shields/Barriers are depleted then continue again applying Incendiary ammo, how does it stack? I'm guessing you'll have two separate DoT's once you get to the armor, one for the ammo and one for the Warp and the ammo the Warp collects. And the second question, is this how it worked prior to the tech explosion buff that allowed tech explosions on non-killing moves?

 

Actually, you may be right, but it's not exactly as you described. Fire explosion DoT does not prevent incendiary ammo to be applied, at least, not in a technical sense. If there was only FE DoT without any existing incendiary ammo DoT, incendiary ammo will stack with FE DoT incorrectly, resulting in 6 (instead of 8 for an FE DoT) ticks of 0 damage being applied.I was sure to continue the incendiary DoT within the 3 second window from the last shot, which is supported by the fact the the incendiary DoT continued to stack instead of doing 0 damage.

 

The fact that a fire explosion occured may have created a incendiary ammo + fire explosion glitch stack, which incendiary kept adding to because it is at a higher point in a sequence of priorities, instead of warp. Similar behaviour was previously observed if you warped and used incinerate at the same time and then shot incendiary ammo, in which is only absorbed one of the powers based on certain metrics.

 

---

 

I don't know how it stacks if you shoot shields/barriers with incendiary ammo then use warp/incinerate afterwards. Could test. Regarding the pre-tech explosion change, I don't know, but since Bioware has not made any statement in any patch notes anywhere regarding incendiary glitch stacking (as well as not releasing polonium rounds), it would probably work in the same way even before those changes.

[corlist]

No, that only happens if you detonate the FE on the last tick of IA. That is, almost never.

 

It doesn't necessary need to be on the last tick. IA DoT lasts 3 seconds, FE DoT lasts 4 seconds at the point of detonation. If at any point of time, there is only FE DoT and you shoot incendiary ammo, the 0 damage glitch occurs. This can happen even if you detonate on the first IA DoT tick, since the FE lasts longer.

[Alfonsedode]

Sabotage tech vulnerability + debuff

 

Sabotage's tech vulnerability stacks separately/multiplicatively instead of additvely with other debuffs such as proxy mine.

e.g. If a target was hit with a proxy mine (20%), scanned by a recon mine (25%) and sabotage, it will take (1 + .2 + .25) * 1.5  = 2.175x more damage.

 

This works for eligible tech powers, heavy melee attacks as well as all 3 tech combos.

*edit*

With help from peddro

BTW, i m not sure if sabotage debuff from different players stacks ?

[Deerber]

It doesn't necessary need to be on the last tick. IA DoT lasts 3 seconds, FE DoT lasts 4 seconds at the point of detonation. If at any point of time, there is only FE DoT and you shoot incendiary ammo, the 0 damage glitch occurs. This can happen even if you detonate on the first IA DoT tick, since the FE lasts longer.

 

Ah, sorry. I was going by this thread by Tyhw which seemed to indicate what I wrote. What you say is even worse... Not detonating on the last tick is something one can manage almost always, but one can't keep count of how much time has passed from the last FE every time... :/

 

Direct health damage via bubble hit can never inflict headshot damage, only a penetrating hit that also hits the head will do so. Using the same 1000 damage estimate on a BW shot, it would've inflicted about 250 damage to the health directly.

 

Sad to say I can't say very much regarding phantom host/off-host DR stuff. It may be because that we test with an "artificial" phantom which makes the strange things described to not happen (or at least, I did not notice anything unusual happen). This is because when we test, we use a script to instantly regenerate the phantom to full health whenever , which could break some of the triggers involved with flipping and random DR application. Testing for extended periods of time does indeed break the AI for certain enemies. We could test more, but it would probably be a waste of time testing for pseudo-random events when the code could be examined instead.

 

Ah sure, I get it now... You can't score headshots while she's in bubble mode, unless you have quite a lot of penetration. That, alone, would go a long way to explain many oddities I've noticed. And would mean I'm gonna start to shoot her bubble directly instead of bothering to go for her head...

 

Also yes, I understand how such a script could break certain pseudo-random events. Didn't think about that. Well, I guess we can just live with their bs then... Or disable it via coalesced

 

Anyway, thank you very much, you cleared a lot of things in my mind

[CrimsonN7]

I'm not even gonna read this thread.

 

 

[DrunkenRonin]

I'm not even gonna read this thread.

Word.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm not even gonna read this thread.

 

 

 

 

I get entirely too many uses out of this gif! ;D

[me0120]

A few more ammo power questions...

IA seems to have a delay before it primes for explosions. There is also a noticeable difference in how quickly it primes between IA IV and everything below IV. Easiest test is using a Drell Vanguard with an Acolyte; with IA IV you can shoot shielded mook and immediately charge to get a Fire Explosion, but if you do it with IA III you have to wait a moment or there is no Fire Explosion. Any insight on this?

I'm noticing with Disruptor Tech Burst that you have to wait a period of time after detonating before you can prime again, particularly on armor. It seems to work just like IA Fire Explosions in that you have to wait around 4 seconds to prime for another burst. This is something new to me so I'm a little confused on some things: does it only act this way with certain primers, does it negate the Disruptor Ammo bonus, does every grade of Disruptor Ammo have the same minimum priming duration?

[corlist]

A few more ammo power questions...

IA seems to have a delay before it primes for explosions. There is also a noticeable difference in how quickly it primes between IA IV and everything below IV. Easiest test is using a Drell Vanguard with an Acolyte; with IA IV you can shoot shielded mook and immediately charge to get a Fire Explosion, but if you do it with IA III you have to wait a moment or there is no Fire Explosion. Any insight on this?

I'm noticing with Disruptor Tech Burst that you have to wait a period of time after detonating before you can prime again, particularly on armor. It seems to work just like IA Fire Explosions in that you have to wait around 4 seconds to prime for another burst. This is something new to me so I'm a little confused on some things: does it only act this way with certain primers, does it negate the Disruptor Ammo bonus, does every grade of Disruptor Ammo have the same minimum priming duration?

 

It seems like incendiary ammo prime has to do with the amount of damage DoT damage inflicted. If you shoot incendiary ammo slowly, one shot at a time, with a weapon like GPR, there will never be a FE primed. One shot from a javelin on the other hand will probably guarantee a prime.

 

Regarding disruptor ammo tech burst, I'm never really noticed any considerable delay. I use my HV a lot with talon + disruptor and I could quite often get 3 tech bursts in a shoot charge, shoot nova (x2) cycle. Just how much of a delay are we talking about?

[me0120]

It might be hard to tell but the very beginning of this video shows it.



EDIT: I meant certain detonators in my previous comment. Not certain primers.