28 réponses à ce sujet

[bdcgvshujvgjvgsdjjgvsd]

This is slightly tongue in cheek view but there is evidence to support the theory that the major villain in the story is not Howe, Loghain or even the AD it is your brother Fergus.

What if Fergus not only wants to take over your father's estate but also wants to get himself out of a loveless marriage with a wife who has cheated on him and he knows that he isn't Oren's father. The clues are in the family conversation shortly before he leaves the castle, firstly he talks about getting some ale and wenches as if he was a single man and only retracts his view when challenged but far more revealing is when the 'warden to be' talks to Oren about teaching him to use a sword, at this point Fergus makes the chilling prediction that he will be seeing a sword close up soon enough! Is it really a coincidence or does Fergus know what is going to happen to his family.

Now let's have a look at his convenient habit of never ever being in the wrong place at the wrong time, when Howe takes over the castle he is on his way to Ostagar, when all the kings men are slaughtered at Ostagar his scouting party somehow manages to miss the carnage. Then he disappears off the face of the earth during the civil war and blight only to return to reclaim the family's titles when all the dust has settled - now how convenient is that.

...and that ladies and gentlemen ends the case for the prosecution.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I dunno, the kid looks more like him than his wife.

In Fergus's defense, he apparently did get his butt handed to him during an attack by... either darkspawn or assassins, don't remember which, and then gets taken captive by the Chasind. (If memory serves, his men were all dead by this point.) Of course, we have his own word to take for all this, so...

[mousestalker]

The problem with your theory is that Howe never rats him out. And Howe would rat out anyone, especially as payback to the young spitfire that just killed him.

[sidhetaur]

Like I said, I think the family is less noble and perfect than the narration would have us believe, but I don't think this accusation holds quite as much ground.

I am certain you are wrong that the family is not as noble as the narration says given what we have seen.  However, people do have a taste for the dirty laundry of the nobility and who knows what will be manufactured to feed that in future?  

I hope, frankly, that the Couslands will be spared that.   I think they have suffered enough for being the good guys without being rewritten to have feet of clay.

For me, it is good enough that Howe hates them if nothing else.

[gandanlin]

I'm having a bit of trouble accepting that Fergus would be a willing party to the murder of his parents, his wife, and his child -- all to claim an estate that was going to be his in due time anyway.

Fergus might have been a bit less noble than some of us would like a noble to be, but I can't quite view him as black a scoundrel as he would have to be to do all the things he is accused of in the opening post.

[Fiacre]

Faerunner wrote...

It has nothing to do with dirty laundry, it's how people actually are when no one's looking.

To me, the narration goes to such ridiculous lengths to show how perfect and flawless the family is that it frankly kills my suspension of disbelief because nobody is that perfect. No matter how kind, polite, or honourable a person is, everyone has flaws, failings, and shortcomings. In fact, every other origin reveals families and/or friends who have realistic balances of flaws and virtues. If it had been the same for Couslands' flaws, I would not have a problem. But having the narration and other characters constantly shove it down my throat how the Couslands are the Maker's Greatest Gift to Thedas since Andraste just makes me wonder what's really going on behind the scenes.

And then I see Nan verbally abusing and terrifying the elven staff right in front of "Pup" Cousland, who just stands there at best, encourages her to beat them at worst. Considering the devs have stated in interviews that this was intentional as a way to show what it's like to be the racist in this game, I'm pretty sure that racism and maltreatment of elves is canon and actually goes on in the castle. The Couslands have feet of clay after all.

Isn't that a bit contradictory? The game shows that the Couslands aren't so perfect and have flaws like racism, but yet t also shows that they are perfect and flawless?

I can't say I ever got the flawless part. There's a reason why my HNs usually have some issues and, well, racism does sound like a pretty big flaw. I don't hold against them in a way that would make me dislike them, since almost every human is racistic in some way, but still, it's there, it's a flaw.

And, of course, the reason he hates them is because they're just too amazing.

For me, that's the mark of a Mary Sue. EVERYONE loves the characters EXCEPT for one person, and of course that person is just a completely evil villain with no redeeming qualities. And, of course, he doesn't have any legitimate reason to dislike the Couslands (because, of course, there's nothing about them to dislike), it's just because he's jealous and wishes he was as awesome as them. Sure.
 
If some characters had been shown to dislike or just not care all that much for the Couslands, I wouldn't mind, but we're supposed to believe that everyone (well, everyone that matters. Elves don't count) adores them except for this one person but it's only because he's evil and jealous of how amazingly perfect they are? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

Where is that ever shown? Cailan is upset, but he damn well should be if one of his vassals and supporters gets murdered. He's not upset enough not to quickly go back to his "Loghain bores me with strategy" nonsense.Teagan, I think, barely acknowledges it, Eamon doesn't do so at all, Sighard and Alfstanna promise you aid but you also just saved his son and told her what happened to her brother. Anora gives you her sympathy, but she'd be foolish not to. I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't been at all sincere (in fact, I doubt it was), and i lover her and ship Anora/HN like mad. I don't think Loghain ever indicates that he gives a crap about what happened. Lady Landra happens to be friends with Eleanor... and IIRC we're told that her husband is rather unpopular for being a turncoat or something similar.

And Howe wanted the Cousland's land and influence. Some few centuries back, around the time of the Flemeth legend, Highever was even just an outpost of Amaranthine and controlled by the Estan family, a cousin of the Howes. flemeth killed Conobar, Sarim, who'd only been the captain of the guard, took over, fought a war against Amarathine after declaring independance and apparently won the war and some oof their lands. consisdering that history, it may also be that Howe was angry because he thought highever should be his.

There is the theory that Howe was jealous of Bryce having a happier family, but IIRC it's never confirmed anywhere in the game and just conjecture.

And really, X being jealous of Y having a lot of power doesn't make Y perfect, it means that Y has a lot of power. And while Bryce, admittedly, was somewhat popular with the ther nobles at least (a group that includes people like Vaughan... And wasn't it said somehwere that his father was seen as honourable? Considering how his son turned out, I have a hard time believing he actually was.) that still doesn't make him perfect. Anora was popular with the nobles, that doesn't ell us that she's perfect. And Bryce has even less screen time than her and most of it is spent trying to get us emotionally invested enough to get upset when he dies. (Half of it is spent dying, even.) Which doesn't work with everyone, naturally, but it seems to have been the intention.

Really, I fail to see how we're shown that they're perfection incarnate. I also fail to see how they should have shown all that many flaws while keeping the characters likeable enough for people to grieve for them when their whole appearance paractically consists of "Hello, sibling, let us joke a bit, I love you, bye, off to war now", "Hello pup, is your hound gone, I love you, oh noes we're attacked and I'm staying behind, farewell", "Hello pup, here have Grey Warden, I love you, oh noes I'm dying" and a bit of "Hello, sibling in law/unle/aunt, I'm your sister in law/adorable (or annoying) little nephew, oh noes we're dead".

For them to show more of the Couslands to shape them into real, 3 dimensional characters, the orgin would have either needed to be a lot longer than it is now, or they would have had to make something else and not a revenge storyline.

[gandanlin]

If nothing else, the HN origin story gave us a peek into the political world of Ferelden, and it was murky. Intrigues and counter-intrigues. class structure and elves as Ferelden-type serfs.

More later. I have to log off at the moment.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The lore does try to paint them as unrealistically noble, selfless, and heroic and all that, and then we see elves abused under their noses while the youngest either watches or participates. The abuser then goes into how the teyrnir is not guaranteed to the Couslands after Bryce dies, and that the HN should try to be truly noble, seeing no contradiction with her actions because she hasn't abused any actual humans.

I think that's probably the worst of it. It would be poetic, that their only moral flaw by real world moral standards is something Thedas doesn't even understand to be such, even as it horrifies the audience.

[ShadowLordXII]

While the Couslands are far from perfect, it is pointed out in dialogue with Iona and others that the Couslands treat their elven servants much better than most other nobles (Namely "party-lover Vaughen).

Plus, being noble, selfless and well-respected by most of your peers doesn't make someone an automatic mary-sue. Especially since it was earned at least on Bryce's part.

Bryce participated in the war to reclaim Ferelden where he fought in a battle where only fifty people survived amongst whatever else he might of done. Couple that with his family lineage and holding nobility that is only equaled by the Hero of the River Dane and surpassed by the King of Ferelden, I'd say that the Cousland family has earned their respect.

As for the theory that Fergus orchestrated his family's death...I'd say that it's debunked by Howe's admission of slaughtering your family and not ratting out Fergus to you as a final stab from the grave. Forever shattering your last hope of reuniting with the last remnant of your family...

[Fiacre]

Faerunner wrote...

I said that the game spends a lot of time and effort showing scores
and scores of examples of characters and history archives and any other
example they can amazingly super-special-awesome the Couslands are, to
the point that the devs seem to want you to believe these people are
perfect. Then they show one flaw (racism), but it's very briefly shown,
unacknowledged, and quickly swept under the rug.

But when does it do that? It tells us that they're well respected and that they have a good family life. I'd say to be super special perfect you'd need more than that. And Alduous is in their employ, of course he sings their praises. Iona, as you pointed out, can hardly afford saying "Actually, you're douchebags and racist." Dairren is your father's squire and points out that his family is a lot less powerful, I wouldn't be surpised if they need the friedship of a teyrn.

And the ancestors we hear about, we only hear very little about. Some guy randomly decided that hey, now that his Lord is dead he can just take ovwer and wage a little war agaisnt Amaranthine. Another one rallied the other Banns against the werewolves. We know nothing else. I think the game can't even decide who did that. Saying they were particularly noble would be ann assumption. And the only thing we know about Alathea is that she lost against Calenhad but managed to at least keep her teyrnir.

Then we know that they were involved in Sophia's rebellion... As were other nobles (the Wulffs, for example). And rebelling against a guy who randomly slaughters whole families can be out of a mere need for self preservation as well. Hell, it could havee been planned to be a power grab -- we don't know, we aren't told  much. What we do know is that the Couslands are defintely important, but welll, they do have a teyrnir and have manaed to hold onto it throughout the centuries, of course they are.

And it's shown very brief, brushed under the run, and quickly replaced with yet more characters waxing more prose of how amazing and noble and incredible the family is and always has been. Virtually every positive example is given in detail whereas the few flaws we do see are quickly shown, quickly pulled away and not given much time to refe

I often see Cousland fans seriously argue that the Couslands aren't at all racist and the elves are better treated than anywhere else and Highever is the best one in Fereldan because "Iona said this" (and I think her testimony is tainted since she says this right in front of the people in question, who have the power to punish or fire her if she says something negative) or "you can seduce Iona, so of course the Couslands can't be racist" (because people only ever seduce each other when they respect their minds, souls andpersonalities, right?).

It kind of annoys me that the game hits you over the head with so many elaborate examples of how "awesome" the family is that anyone can catch it whereas any flaws that might exist either aren't revealed (what's something negative about Bryce's character that we're ever told or shown? Anything? "He trusted Howe" doesn't count) or glossed over so that you have to be looking out for it to see it. (To be honest, I've noticed that the people who actually notice Nan's racist treatment are usually people who played elves or some other minority like the casteless first. 80% or so of players only played human. Hmm.)

The racism is right there in front of you, what Iona says doesn't change that, neither does seducing her, you're right about that.

And Bryce is foolish. He indicates that  there may be trouble and yet still believes his power to be secure enough that there's no need for more than a token force, and they all pay the price for that foolishness. He's also pushy, and he's posibly lying to the PC. He tells us that Eleanor is against the PC going to Ostagar, but when Duncan makes the Grey Warden suggestion it is he that immediately gets angry and tells Duncan that he doesn't want to see both of his children fight in the battle. The PC can say what they want about not being ready to lead Highever on your own, but he won't hear none of it -- he even sends his wife away, leaving you all alone with your task, because she might undermine your authority. Eleanor has the same thing going on. Even when he tells you that he loves you, he still has to add that he trusts you to carry on the Cousand name, dumping more responsibility on your shoulders, as if you hadn't indicated enouh that you're worried and possibly scared. And when he's dying he tries to convince you to leave by saying that you need to do your duty, not "i love you and would rather see you leave us here thandie with us" or anything like that.

The flaws are there, imo, they're just not as pronounced, and I imagine that is because of the revenge story. Doesn't mean I'm right, though, of course.

The problem is that not only are we only told of his virtues, we're also only shown his virtues too. Every single person you come across has only great things to say about them, every piece of family history shows that they were only good and heroic (whereas Howe's family was sneaky and treacherous; I mean, they sided with the Orlaisians for crying out loud!), and every single moment spent in the same room as them just likes to hit us over the head with how amazingly awesome they are. These other nobles aren't the best of examples as we see their flaws firsthand, we

At no point does someone specifically say "Eh, I don't really care for

Uh, I think there's a part of your post missing.

How many people talk about them, really? The people in the castle are biased. And IIRC, everyone else just acknowledges they're dead and that they'll help you. You've just helped Sighard and Alfstanna, so them offering their help is only returning the favour, especially since you, not your family, would have proven yourself to them. Ceorlic and Bryland don't talk to you. Wulff actually says he doesn't give a **** and no, he's not helping you get your teyrnir back, go away and leave him alone. Anora's positive thing to say is "Hey, I liked your mom"  and as I said, I doubt she really cared all that much and was likely to simply want to get your good side. Loghain just thinks he's seen you at the Landsmeet before and then never acknowledges who you are again.  I relly can't remember anyone outside the castle singing the Cousland's praises, and of course there employees would, you're standing righ in front of them, they'd be stupid to insult your family then.

I haven't read The Stolen Throne yet, but I heard it said some weird things that clash with the codex entry on them? So maybe that isn't all true. besides, the other two Howes we meet apart from Rendon are perfectly nice and reasonable people, one of them can even become on of your best friends. And again "took pver after his Lord was murdered by Flemeth and smiply declared independance" sounds more like power grab to me than being good and noble. And with the other ones we aren't told anything about their characters, just whatever important thing they did. Mather could have been the biggest douchebag ever and still rallied against the werewolves. His character isn't information we're privy to because all we need to know is that there was a Cousland who did that and became teyrn for it.

This, I disagree with. Every other origin was able to show realistically flawed but over-all good characters without taking extra time to introduce flaws separately or ruin the flow of the story. The Dalish Warden's best friend Tamlen was extremely hostile toward humans, but very cordial and easy-going to his friend Mahariel, which only took a few lines to convey in the story as it's told (encounter the humans, go to the cave they mentioned, find the mirror and get tainted).

The City Elf's family especially was shown to be very loving and supportive just like the Couslands, but the devs also skillfully wove their flaws into the plot-required conversation so that we could see their flaws without needing to add extra content. The CE Warden's father is kind but emotionally distant thanks to the death of the PC's mother, Shianni is an avid drinker and Soris is a coward. All this we learn in our plot-required cutscenes with them.

Just like the HN Origin, the City Elf Origin has really brief conversations that show you who the heck is who before you find yourself fighting to protect yourself and your family, but they're not afraid to show flaws within those conversations. "Hi, I'm your cousin, I'm drunk and I'm teasing you," "Hi, I'm your father, I'm still torn up over your mother's death and pushing you to get married whether you like it or not," "Hi, I'm your other cousin and I'm dreading the thought of marrying an ugly woman." They still manage to convey more well-rounded personalities in their interactions than: "I'm the most noblest dad ever," "I'm a doting mumzy," "I'm a happy-go-lucky brother," "I'm a pretty trophy wife," "I'm a sickeningly cute kid you're supposed to find adorable, now let's all stand together smiling and laughing like a Hallmark commercial before we're all brutally slaughtered."

The CE Origin didn't have to shove our family's virtues down our throat to make us emotionally attached to them, or downplay the alienage's flaws to make us feel connected to it. We know that Shianni is far from perfect (and have specific examples to prove it) even before Vaughan kidnaps her and the other bridesmaids. That doesn't diminish our desire to protect them, our devastation over what happens to Shianni, or our desire to avenge her by gutting Vaughan. The game trusts us to still love these people and want to avenge them despite knowing they're all flawed.

I... haven't played the CE origin yet. I'm planning on making a CEF, but I've been waiting to get the PC version for over a month now (and hopefully will do so nect week), so I don't know how it's done there. But other than Gorim I didn't see anyone in that origin that was good and I felt particularly connected to. I mean, I really like Bhelen, but I already liked him before I played the DN origin.

And I vaguely remember talking to Tamlen a lot while exploring the ruins, but my memory of the DE origin is admittedly somewhat fussy. (I do plan to make another DE, but again... PC version.)

And the mage origin utterly failed to make me care about anyone but Irving... And again, I liked him before I played that origin.

[Fallstar]

Where is it suggested that the Couslands aren't flawed? Fergus is suggested to be unfaithful to his wife for one, but you still like him, he's your brother after all. Bryce's confidence is what ultimately leads to his downfall; if his pride wasn't such that he believed the castle unassailable, then Howe wouldn't have been able to take the castle.

The history of the Couslands is steeped in war, if you care to read between the lines a little that should suggest that they aren't all that noble. They almost certainly did terrible things during those wars, as that is simply the nature of war.

Then you have them committing treason by aiding the Warden rebellion. Which suggests that their allegiance to the king of Ferelden isn't guaranteed.

There's plenty of complexity to the characters if you look for it. At the end of the day you are playing the Human Noble Origin; of course they are going to have a veneer of nobility. But as the player you are supposed to be able to see beyond that veneer.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Faerunner wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The lore does try to paint them as unrealistically noble, selfless, and heroic and all that, and then we see elves abused under their noses while the youngest either watches or participates. The abuser then goes into how the teyrnir is not guaranteed to the Couslands after Bryce dies, and that the HN should try to be truly noble, seeing no contradiction with her actions because she hasn't abused any actual humans.

I think that's probably the worst of it. It would be poetic, that their only moral flaw by real world moral standards is something Thedas doesn't even understand to be such, even as it horrifies the audience.

I wouldn't say all of Thedas, as fellow elves and probably other oppressed minorities, like mages and casteless, (who have to deal with similar hypocrisy and maltreatment in their day-to-day lives) would understand it as a moral flaw as well. (In fact, many elves in the city elf origin flat out condemn the unequal treatment they receive from humans and nobles.) Just because fellow humans don't see racism against elves as a moral flaw doesn't mean no one else would.

Okay, I didn't put that perfectly. But since most of Thedas is human, the dwarves do the same damn thing to what I think is probably a minority of their population, and magi seem to be pretty rare, most people don't see what they're doing as wrong.

I don't play the City Elf Origin very often, how strongly is it suggested Highever is worse than Denerim? For that matter, how is that even possible? The reason I only played that Origin once is that Vaughn is creepier than the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DuskWarden wrote...

 Bryce's confidence is what ultimately leads to his downfall; if his pride wasn't such that he believed the castle unassailable, then Howe wouldn't have been able to take the castle.

Huh? When does the game ever say that? I thought it just didn't occur to him that anyone would, especially not Howe. Or did I miss some Foreshadowing, Fate-Tempting dialogue that I should have been listening to?

The history of the Couslands is steeped in war, if you care to read between the lines a little that should suggest that they aren't all that noble. They almost certainly did terrible things during those wars, as that is simply the nature of war.

Is this the past Couslands, or the present Couslands?

Then you have them committing treason by aiding the Warden rebellion. Which suggests that their allegiance to the king of Ferelden isn't guaranteed.

A noble's allegiance to the king of Ferelden isn't supposed to be guaranteed. Ferelden is supposed to throw off tyrants like the one Arland is suggested to be by the Codex, as well as idiots who try to sell them to Orlais by marriage. A large part of the (human) culture of Ferelden is that the nobility need (human) permission to be nobles, whereas the Orlesian nobility have an arrangement with the Chantry where they each preach that the Maker mandates the other. (Of course, the elves don't have a say under either government, since Ferelden was deliberately written as an imperfect nation.)

There's plenty of complexity to the characters if you look for it. At the end of the day you are playing the Human Noble Origin; of course they are going to have a veneer of nobility. But as the player you are supposed to be able to see beyond that veneer.

If the Couslands aren't 100% perfect, (which I readily admit,) I still believe it's somewhat thicker than a veneer... unless of course they really do manage to screw their elves worse than the ones in Denerim are, in which case there's no concievable way that anyone outside of Thedas could consider them noble.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I don't trust them either. Too perfect. Too good. I'm sure they got some secret hidden in that giant castle.

[Fiacre]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If the Couslands aren't 100% perfect, (which I readily admit,) I still believe it's somewhat thicker than a veneer... unless of course they really do manage to screw their elves worse than the ones in Denerim are, in which case there's no concievable way that anyone outside of Thedas could consider them noble.

Well, we don't know if that comparison counts Vaughan. Wasn't it said somewhere that he usually isn't as blatant as he is in the CE origin? It may be simple matter of housing conditions / money (which is bad enough, true).

[Fiacre]

Faerunner wrote...

Add this to the fact that we see Nan abuse the elven castle staff right in front of "Pup" without comment, but neither the character nor apparently the audience is supposed to think it's a big deal (it's even played as being charming), and I have a feeling there's a lot of stuff going behind the scenes. We're never shown the Highever Alienage, we never get to talk to any of the elven staff before or after Howe, we never overhear conversations they have with each other. Just a bunch of humans patting each other on the back and stroking the PC's ego for being so swell, which the elves are conspicuously absent from. This makes me think a lot goes on under the surface, even if it isn't shown or addressed to the main character during gameplay.

Not to argue with the rest of your points, since I actually agree for the most part, but I always thought Nan was supposed to come off as annoying. The only reason I talk to her more than necessary is that I think that her story about the hound can be somehwhat useful for character development later on.