73 réponses à ce sujet

[element eater]

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

good news on the bioware forums well i never

while i prefer silent if i must have voice this is atleast somewhat reassuring

[Terror_K]

Korusus wrote...

David's comment is confusing. Less need for "Tell me more lines" ?  Or less need for PC expressing opinions without direct input lines?  I is confused.

It's just more typical vague BioWare marketing bureaucratic speak for "more dumbed down" most likely.

Oh... they'll probably claim that it's "streamlining" and "making it more accessible" and all that, but it means dumbing down.

They haven't learned. The fact they're still sticking with a voiced protagonist alone makes that obviously evident.

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Hawke still said things that were out of character for me. Most notably how he's befuddled at the presence of the Qunari in Isabela's Act 2 quest -- it's the first line after combat's over -- when the game repeatedly smacks you in the face with clues -- subtle or blatant -- that she's involved in why they're in Kirkwall and stuck there.

And then, none of the options can have Hawke say anything close to "I knew it.". So in that instance on my first playthrough, Hawke is shown to be a Grade A moron -- well, that happened in Act 1 and even the prologue, but that's another matter... -- who was always written by the Bioware team to not know that Isabela was involved in why the Qunari were in Kirkwall.

I'm glad to hear of this "less need" notion, assuming it's not simply vagueness for the sake of misguiding vagueness -- as I've come to expect. Honestly, I have to wonder why auto-dialogue needs to happen at all. I'd personally keep it to as little a quantity as possible, for exactly the obvious reason: The possibility that it will interfere with/clash with/outright break someone's roleplaying and immersion.

I'm not saying it shouldn't ever happen -- there are a few things I want the PCs in the video game series I've been planning to say, no matter what -- but I do feel that DAII had too much. And from what I've heard, ME3 was worse.

Now, a continuation of a specific type of tone in a conversation is something I wouldn't mind, but I don't mean what you seem to be talking about. I mean like say I pick the snarky option and Hawke says something. Then Isabela responds snarkily back. Then I hear a snarky bit of dialogue as a continuation of that tone choice in that specific conversation.

Rinse and repeat for the other two possible options.

Then the wheel appears to continue onwards.

That's something I wouldn't mind too much, less so if there was some way for me to see the full line. And I feel the need to say that full lines and paraphrases are not mutually exclusive things.

Normen_Mendax wrote...

If so, one of the problems I have with DA2 is that I want my tone to be different when talking to different people (or people from different groups), and the game doesn't appear to record this information, nor does it really have much of a chance to figure it out given that I might not have many interactions with a particular group.

Agreed. Having Hawke address different groups and people with a tone that was not how I wanted to respond through autodialogue was another problem I had with the dialogue system.

[zyntifox]

David Gaider wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...
For me autodialgue was done too much in ME3, I loved conversing with companions but with autodialogue I was been taking out of the conversation for the sake of  "cinematic flow". It's like your character will state his/her own opinions withhout any input from you yet you will stride down corridors making Banshees swoon over you.

Sorry for that last bit but that's how I feel about it. I know ME and DA take influences from each, I just hope autodialgue isn't a overalling factor in influences. I like and support the dialogue wheel from DA2 to be improved not dampened.

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

That's a shame. So you are really sticking with this "Mass effect in medieval fantasy setting" then eh? It is sad to see Bioware, the king of RPGs, taking away player input to the point that roleplaying isn't possible. Is the cinematic presentation so important that you are willing to take the risk that you won't break characters in the process? By having auto-dialogue set by tone we will be forced to create one-dimensional character that is either diplomatic/humorous/aggressive (given that these are the tones used in DA3) to everyone to reduce the probablity of character breaking from wrong tones in the auto-dialogue. And that's not even mentioning the context of the auto-dialogue that still can break a character despite being consistent with the choice of tone.

It seems like by introducing auto-dialogue and paraphrasing the dialogue answers to the franchise you are not even trying anymore to create the illusion  that we are playing our characters.

Modifié par Cstaf, 29 août 2012 - 06:49 .

[esper]

David Gaider wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...
For me autodialgue was done too much in ME3, I loved conversing with companions but with autodialogue I was been taking out of the conversation for the sake of  "cinematic flow". It's like your character will state his/her own opinions withhout any input from you yet you will stride down corridors making Banshees swoon over you.

Sorry for that last bit but that's how I feel about it. I know ME and DA take influences from each, I just hope autodialgue isn't a overalling factor in influences. I like and support the dialogue wheel from DA2 to be improved not dampened.

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Tease
I don't know wherever to be worried or not over this. On one hand, autodialog was irritating and it has prevented me from completeting me3, on the other hand the warden and Hawke (almost) never reacting to banter in da:o and da2 main was also out of characther because some of the conversation was about them, really emberrissing and I knew that it was something my warden and my Hawke should have reacted on.

Legacy hit the right spot for me. Mark of the assassin didn't because of Tallis' attitude. Tallis and Hawke talks too much in banter where we can't give our input.

But I am still proposing that we store a tone towards group, with each companion being an individual group.

[Firky]

David Gaider wrote...

In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Because the protagonist is a saarebas with lips stitched together? Because that would be cool.

(But I'm sure everyone else would hate it.)

Also, sounds interesting, but I totally lack the imagination to figure out what this is hinting at ...

[Karlone123]

David Gaider wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...
For me autodialgue was done too much in ME3, I loved conversing with companions but with autodialogue I was been taking out of the conversation for the sake of  "cinematic flow". It's like your character will state his/her own opinions withhout any input from you yet you will stride down corridors making Banshees swoon over you.

Sorry for that last bit but that's how I feel about it. I know ME and DA take influences from each, I just hope autodialgue isn't a overalling factor in influences. I like and support the dialogue wheel from DA2 to be improved not dampened.

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Shan't yet? We shall see.

[Fallstar]

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Sounds promising. If auto dialogue is going to be present, the volume of it doesn't matter that much, more what we actually say and do during that auto dialogue. When we are making decisions without player input, that is bad. The PC saying Hi at the start of a conversation is relatively harmless on the other hand. Most of the DA2 auto dialogue was in the middle; although there were very few actual decisions made through auto dialogue, a lot of the dialogue was of the "Woah my Hawke wouldn't say that, what the hell" variety.

The dialogue system is one of the most discussed topics on these boards, it'd be nice if it was one of the first features you show off when you start doing that.

[Karlone123]

[quote]Normen_Mendax wrote...

If so, one of the problems I have with DA2 is that I want my tone to be different when talking to different people (or people from different groups), and the game doesn't appear to record this information, nor does it really have much of a chance to figure it out given that I might not have many interactions with a particular group.
[/quote]

Agreed. Having Hawke address different groups and people with a tone that was not how I wanted to respond through autodialogue was another problem I had with the dialogue system.[/quote]

Obviously there are kinks that need working out.

[Terror_K]

Another reason a silent protagonist is far superior to roleplaying: it's impossible for autodialogue to be an issue.

[Uccio]

Cultist wrote...

More bad news

Atleast I get to decided where to put my money. Wait and see tactics work well here.

[PhillyB]

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Why, that's excellent news! Now that I think about it, there really is no need for any dialogue options. Why not just remove them all and allow the player to select a personality at the beginning of the game?

[Fallstar]

PhillyB wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Why, that's excellent news! Now that I think about it, there really is no need for any dialogue options. Why not just remove them all and allow the player to select a personality at the beginning of the game?

One of us is getting the wrong end of the stick here. I assumed "less need even for those lines" to mean fewer of the more repetitive auto dialogue lines, such as the tell me more thing, which means less auto dialogue and is therefore surely a good thing, not that they are removing lines that require player input.

[fchopin]

I think we are in to the next level of autodialogue with DA3 from what i understand.

I hope the game is still an RPG after all the changes that will be done.

I love ME3 but i do not consider it an RPG.

[Uccio]

^ one of the reasons why I didn´t buy it.

Modifié par Ukki, 29 août 2012 - 11:55 .

[Terror_K]

BioWare don't make RPGs any more. They just make cinematic, story-driven action games. They just keep claiming they're RPGs.

Modifié par Terror_K, 29 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[zyntifox]

fchopin wrote...

I think we are in to the next level of autodialogue with DA3 from what i understand.

I hope the game is still an RPG after all the changes that will be done.

I love ME3 but i do not consider it an RPG.

Neither is DA2. I think ME3 is one of the best interactive action/adventure games ever, not including the ridiculous ending, and while i consider DA2 in the same category it pales in comparison in terms of quality. Which is really odd considering that they have the same developer.

[Indoctrination]

David Gaider wrote...

I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2. We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Mr. Gaider:

Thank you for giving us this polite and informative response. However, I question whether or not you can make statements like this with complete honesty. I don't want to be one of those annoying users who pretend to be experts on the insider issues within your company, so I won't. I don't know what really goes on in there, so perhaps what I'm about to say is pure non-sense. Please bear with me.

My understanding is that you are a lead writer. You write plotlines and dialogue and also direct other less senior writers who are working on the same projects that you are. Would it be fair to say that whether or not the next game in the Dragon Age series is cheapened by an overuse of automated dialogue is completely in the hands of the people who are allocating your word budget and not any of the writers? I do seem to recall you regretting what had to be done with the lacklustre ending of Dragon Age II and the reasons behind that being linked to people who command the project's finances.

Can you honestly tell us that BioWare's next Dragon Age game won't be full of automated dialogue like Mass Effect 3? Did your new project's director (or whomever balances the books) personally tell you this? If this person did not, then are you sure you're not potentially misleading us with posts like this? Thank you for your time.

[Firky]

I dunno if it's necessarily "autodialogue" = cheaper, end of story.

The structure of the conversations is different, there might be more back and forth with the protagonist speaking, but does it have to mean, like, "easy content for your dollar?" In Origins, you picked every line you said, but the NPCs (Alistair, etc) talked more. Like, they sometimes had 6-7 lines in a row, as standard? I'm just guessing, really, but in DA2 there was more back and forth. (Edit: Like, same word count, budget for voice acting etc, just different structure.)

Modifié par Firky, 29 août 2012 - 12:32 .

[Indoctrination]

Firky wrote...

I dunno if it's necessarily "autodialogue" = cheaper, end of story.

The structure of the conversations is different, there might be more back and forth with the protagonist speaking, but does it have to mean, like, "easy content for your dollar?" In Origins, you picked every line you said, but the NPCs (Alistair, etc) talked more. Like, they sometimes had 6-7 lines in a row, as standard? I'm just guessing, really, but in DA2 there was more back and forth.

Less dialogue seems to be objectively fiscally cheaper than more dialogue, so yes, automated dialogue in place of multiple dialogue choices does necessarily seem to imply cheaper dialogue. As far as I can tell it costs the company less money to simply automate large portions of the dialogue, so I don't see how you can see it as anything other than cheaper when I'm using the word in the monetary context.

I see your point, but Mass Effect 3 didn't exaclty have an abundance of extra dialogue with NPCs because they took the dialogue choice away from the player like 85% of the time.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 29 août 2012 - 12:34 .

[Firky]

I haven't played ME3. But I made a small (unreleased) mod for a lark, for Origins, and used some protagonist dialogue in place of other NPCs lines, just as a style difference.

So, if you consider....

Me: Blah Blah Blah.
Or
Me: Blah Blah Blah
Then
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Me: Blah Blah Blah.
Or
Me: Blah Blah Blah.

Compared to,


Me: Blah Blah Blah.
Or
Me: Blah Blah Blah
Then
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Me - but auto dialogue: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Me - but auto dialogue: Blah Blah Blah.
Alistair: Blah Blah Blah.
Me: Blah Blah Blah.
Or
Me: Blah Blah Blah.

The conversation is structured differently, but it's the same amount of resources, right?

(Over the course of the game, I guess lots more of the second could change the balance, but not necessarily.)

[Darth Death]

Terror_K wrote...

Another reason a silent protagonist is far superior to roleplaying: it's impossible for autodialogue to be an issue.

Right on. I rather have a silent protagonist with more dialogue options & control over my character, then pretty cutscenes/autodialogue. It suck being the guy yearning for the old stuff that'll never happen again.

[Indoctrination]

Firky wrote...

I haven't played ME3.

Okay, let me tell you how Mass Effect progressed as a series.


Mass Effect 1:


Anderson: Blah, blah, blah, Shepard!

Shepard:  [Dialogue choice 1], [Dialogue choice 2], [Dialogue choice 3]

Anderson: Blah, blah, blah, Saren!

Shepard:  [Dialogue choice 1], [Dialogue choice 2], [Dialogue choice 3]

Anderson: Blah, blah, good luck!


Mass Effect 2:


The Illusive Man: Blah, blah, blah, Shepard!

Shepard:  [Dialogue choice 1], [Dialogue choice 2], [Dialogue choice 3]

The Illusive Man: Blah, blah, blah, Collectors!

Shepard:  [Dialogue choice 1], [Dialogue choice 2], [Dialogue choice 3]

The Illusive Man: Blah, blah, good luck!


Mass Effect 3:


Anderson: Blah, blah, blah, Shepard!

Shepard:  Automated dialogue

Anderson: Blah, blah, blah, reapers!

Shepard:  [Dialogue choice 1], [Dialogue choice 2] (<---- most of the dialogue is exactly the same no matter which you choose, it goes back into automated mode very quickly)

Anderson: Blah, blah, good luck!

[Firky]

Fair enough. (Like I said, haven't played it.)

I have played ME, though, and I don't recall it being line for line, like one line for the NPC, followed by a choice immediately. Surely that would be impossible.

Granted, I didn't really take notice, but ME is more like,

NPC 1: Blah Blah Blah.
NPC 1: Blah Blah Blah.
NPC 1: Blah Blah Blah.
NPC 2: Blah Blah Blah.
NPC 1: Blah Blah Blah.
Dialogue choice for Shepard.

(I'm not defending "autodialogue." I don't like it, from an RP perspective, but my impression is that there are still lots of lines of dialogue, in Origins and DA2, regardless of who is saying it. I couldn't comment much beyond the first half of the first ME.)