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[Uncle Jo]

B.Shep wrote...

Uncle Jo, do you really believe the Leviathans with that huge ego and god complex would be hiding in some water planet if they were able to face the full might of the Reaper fleet?

Right now they can't do much since they have no thralls to work for them placing that control orbs around the galaxy. Sure they can defend their planet with that energy pulses but using it as a ofensive weapon is a entirely different matter.

If they don't behave, they will have to face the same united galaxy that kicked the reapers and with Shepard leading them(again...lol).

I really have hard times to imagine how they could possibly be defeated by the reapers to begin with.

They also went full retard the last billion years, for me. They had artifacts spread through the galaxy and could have used them to enthrall "lesser races" and make them prepare for the next reaper invasion, after the reapers go to the dark space. Or at least give them some hints. 50,000 years are more than enough.
Think about what the protheans have done on Ilos, what we could achieve in only three years. But no, they chose to do absolutely nothing.

But let's say they couldn't do anything, now that the Reapers are gone, who can oppose them? How? They can even mind control the Reapers. It wasn't the united galaxy who kicked the ass of the reapers, it was the crucible. Without it, we all know what'd have happened.

[Massa FX]

I don't trust Leviathan. Because:

It existed by hiding while trillions evolved and died, but did nothing to help.

It holds organics in thrall without remorse. 10 years?

It created the Catalyst. Major selfish stupid FAIL!

It successfully indoctrinates Shepard, pulling her into "weird" space and hmmmm.... using familiar previously enthralled humans firms to communicate with Shepard. Much like the starchild resembling the dead human child.

It seemed to easily take out that Reaper. Why after all these years wouldn't it use each civilizations thralls or tech to destroy the things its hiding from. Which brings to question... are they really hiding? Or are they the last of their race because they worked out a deal with the Reapers? Betrayed their kind to stay alive perhaps?

The balls of indoctrination that are sitting around to help spread their mind mojo juice can be anywhere. Buried in ruins. Hidden right under any organics feet. Undiscovered yet influencing and enthralling generations.

What do they eat? Fish? They are big enough to have emptied that planets resources long ago. Psychic vampires? Did they feed on those poor humans on the ship above, eating their essence until all they could do is lay down and die of starvation?

Yah. Leviathan. The new enemy. The Galaxy needs a bigger boot.

[B.Shep]

Uncle Jo wrote...

B.Shep wrote...

Uncle Jo, do you really believe the Leviathans with that huge ego and god complex would be hiding in some water planet if they were able to face the full might of the Reaper fleet?

Right now they can't do much since they have no thralls to work for them placing that control orbs around the galaxy. Sure they can defend their planet with that energy pulses but using it as a ofensive weapon is a entirely different matter.

If they don't behave, they will have to face the same united galaxy that kicked the reapers and with Shepard leading them(again...lol).

I really have hard times to imagine how they could possibly be defeated by the reapers to begin with.

They also went full retard the last billion years, for me. They had artifacts spread through the galaxy and could have used them to enthrall "lesser races" and make them prepare for the next reaper invasion, after the reapers go to the dark space. Or at least give them some hints. 50,000 years are more than enough.
Think about what the protheans have done on Ilos, what we could achieve in only three years. But no, they chose to do absolutely nothing.

But let's say they couldn't do anything, now that the Reapers are gone, who can oppose them? How? They can even mind control the Reapers. It wasn't the united galaxy who kicked the ass of the reapers, it was the crucible. Without it, we all know what'd have happened.

It's all fitting just remember how they refer to the other species as "lesser races". Even after almost being extinct by the Reapers they are still arrogants SOB. You saw what they said to Shepard, the only reason why they started fighting was because they couldn't hiding from the Reapers anymore.

Also the ME3 codex entry about them theorize the possibility they have evolved in a planet where another sapient species lived and that race was dominated to serve as their thralls.
Also the modern galactic civilizations already have tecnology enough to shield themselves from the indocrination effects of their artifacts.

Sure being so old means they have advanced thecnology but the way they evolved also make them very vulnerable: no thralls means they lose a lot of capability.
I am even willing to bet the Catalyst killed most of them by doing that...

By the way, the Crucible was the work of several races through time, so i guess we can say it was a united effort from everyone past and present.

Modifié par B.Shep, 31 août 2012 - 11:46 .

[Massa FX]

B.Shep wrote...

By the way, the Crucible was the work of several races through time, so i guess we can say it was a united effort from everyone past and present.

How many of those that worked on the Crucible plans were indoctrinated (Reapers/Catalyst) or enthralled (Leviathan)?

The Crucible - The indoctrinated (Reapers) want Synthesis or Control to blend all life together or dominate all life, and the enthralled (Leviathan) want Destroy or Refuse to see an end to Reapers and then dominate all life.

Both Reapers/Catalyst and Leviathan see Shepard as a means to an end. A way to win their own happy ending. Shepard is  the only entity that could determine the course of the future based on a decision derived with competting monsters vying to control her mind.

Speculation? Yes. What else is there?

[Lord Jaric]

I guess my only disipointment is that it didn't really effect the endding much.

[SamFlagg]

So I'll be up front and admit I did not read 50 pages of thread.

That being said, I think had this and the extended endings been in the game at ship there would've been little to no controversy whatsoever.

I also think it's probably pretty safe to admit that the last 10 minutes of the game, and this DLC, and the extended cuts were really a fair amount of retconning, and I think now enough retconning has been done to make the last 10 minutes of the game make sense.

While I think the line EDI has about the reapers being "fallible over long cycles" was a bit over the top to beat people over the head with, I think the idea that there is inherint falibility in the whole cycle thing is much better laid out here.  (I'm someone who for the most part had an incredulous reaction when most of the people who said the original endings were fine acted if everything in the extended cut was perfectly how they pictured, "of course the AI is falible, of course it's an AI, of course it reaped it's masters! I saw it all along!")

What I find interesting is these things.

1.)  Up until the point the reapers were created the cycle didn't exist for the Apex race, the only reason they created it was because lesser races would wipe themselves out and stop bringing them stuff.    But the Leviathans didn't wipe themselves out until they created machines to go and stop organics from wiping themselves out.  The entire cycle of everything is a self fulfilling prophecy.   (And if the reapers count as a way to not destroy all organic life in the galaxy, then technically the Apex race didn't wipe itself out by creating AI that would destroy it completely.)

2.) The Catalyst and reapers force the next races down the predetermined path, it always seemed logical that they were doing it to make each cycle easy to wipe out, but it now seems far more likely that the paths were done this way so they could reap each cycle on a nice time table.   To me it seems somewhat odd that this is justified purely for efficiencies sake.  I would almost suggest that what the reapers were really trying to do was ensure there never was another Apex race.

3) The game spends a fair amount of time (if you've got From the Ashes) going on about how the Prothean Cycle was very different from the current cycle.  And in a way the Prothean Cycle was more or less a copy of the orignal Cycle, one race above all others making thralls of everyone else.  Whereas the current cycle is built on the foundation of alliances between races.  

I'm more or less saying the SP DLC at this point has done at least a fair job of properly spackling over the plot holes and made the thing now more or less coherent.  I honestly wish I could wipe my memory of playing the game so I could've played the whole thing intact.

Granted, seeing as the Leviathans are clearly a malevolent overlord race, one has to hope that you know, the destroy option maybe kills them dead?  I mean, there wasn't any kind of "Oh we repent of our ways" there was just "Nope, working as desgined!!!!  I mean we'd like not to die, but clearly that must have been what we intended, no mistakes here!"

[PadawanMage71]

I thought it was ok but not earth shattering like LoTSB or even BDTS. Too much is already known about the reapers and the big reveal about 'Leviathan' didn't do it for me.

Leviathan, unfortunately, is constrained by the 'ending'. I will give that it had it's moments, but a 'talking head' doesn't even come close to a action packed aircar chase through the buildings of a metropolis, as in Broker. it also didn't help that while we now received 'war assets' (sounding more and more cliche in this game), it meant nothing to the 'endings'.

Heck, even the Star Brat more or less shrugged when you tell it about the Leviathans. it's hard to make a great DLC when BW pretty much wrote themselves into a corner.

[PadawanMage71]

Modifié par PadawanMage71, 01 septembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[skate4tacos96]

I think the Leviathans are a huge threat to the galaxy.

[babachewie]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I think the Leviathans are a huge threat to the galaxy.

I think they are a prelude to ME4's main antagonists. 

[3DandBeyond]

babachewie wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I think the Leviathans are a huge threat to the galaxy.

I think they are a prelude to ME4's main antagonists. 

And which ME4 would that be?  The one with green eyed people with reapers alive in it, the one with reaper overseers, the one with no synthetics and a lot of damaged tech, or the one that takes place sometime in the future, the far future?  Just wondering.:innocent:

[Lord of Nightmares]

Heh, just realized this, but after having played this DLC, the Starchild's offhanded comment when presenting the Destroy option about how the 'peace won't last' even after the Reapers are gone now sounds more ominous than before.

[Arsenic Touch]

Wasted potential. Just like priority earth horde mode and your war assets. Not that I was expecting anything mind blowing after their track record.

[ElitePinecone]

3DandBeyond wrote...

babachewie wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I think the Leviathans are a huge threat to the galaxy.

I think they are a prelude to ME4's main antagonists. 

And which ME4 would that be?  The one with green eyed people with reapers alive in it, the one with reaper overseers, the one with no synthetics and a lot of damaged tech, or the one that takes place sometime in the future, the far future?  Just wondering.:innocent:

Yeah, this. IMO the leviathans are a narrative dead-end conjured to try to clarify the endings further and generate lots of speculation for everybody™ about their motives. I doubt they'll be referenced again and they aren't the future antagonists for any more games. The Reaper overarching plot has been done to death and overexplained to the point of becoming mundane.

[Senior Cinco]

The DLC is presented very early in the game. So, after Shep knows about the whos whats and whys...he still acts as if he doesn't really know anything.

He still asks the Reaper on Rannoch why they are doing this and gets the age old response..."You can't begin to comprehend." This is now all moot dialog, as that statement has always been, but Shep now knows very well what is going on.

Modifié par Senior Cinco, 01 septembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Ieldra]

Senior Cinco wrote...
The DLC is presented very early in the game. So, after Shep knows about the whos whats and whys...he still acts as if he doesn't really know anything.

He still asks the Reaper on Rannoch why they are doing this and gets the age old response..."You can't begin to comprehend." This is now all moot dialog, as that statement has always been, but Shep now knows very well what is going on.

That's why it's best to play Leviathan after Rannoch. Arrival was also presented early, yet it's best played after the SM. Gameplay/story segregation.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

I think it's better to play it after Thessia. There's some dialogue there that doesn't make sense if you've already played Leviathan.

[Senior Cinco]

Ieldra2 wrote...That's why it's best to play Leviathan after Rannoch. Arrival was also presented early, yet it's best played after the SM. Gameplay/story segregation.

Agreed. I think that just starting the DLC questline early is quite viable. However, I feel that the actual Levi confrontation should have been held back until later. 

[spacehamsterZH]

I really like how the Leviathan retcon pretty much removes all traces of the "turns out the reapers may have been necessary and not really that bad all along" stench from the ending. Leviathan pretty much makes it clear that the reapers are the result of a screwup on the part of a race that ruled over the galaxy with an iron fist. That's good. It smells a bit like yet another attempt to justify the ending after the fact, but it's a good idea, it makes a reasonable amount of sense, and I like it. Also, proper dialogue for squadmates. There wasn't much of it, but it was appreciated.

The DLC itself was too linear for my tastes. The environments look excellent, the new character models are the best they've ever been and the combat sequences and vertical maps are excellently designed, but it's pretty much a completely railroaded story where your only option is, "continue scavenger hunt to narrow down choices or start scanning now." Simply making me click through every object marker in a room to progress the story and pretend this is somehow a puzzle or an investigation is really dumb.

Conclusion: okay, but for Pete's sake, give us at least a little control over how things play out in the next one.

Modifié par spacehamsterZH, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:36 .

[nitefyre410]

nothing much to say but... I know this back when the DLC was announced even before... the Catalyst was a construct that went ape ****. Leviathan(s) makes the Catalyst, Catalyst does job to well... cycles start.

[Uncle Jo]

B.Shep wrote...

It's all fitting just remember how they refer to the other species as "lesser races". Even after almost being extinct by the Reapers they are still arrogants SOB. You saw what they said to Shepard, the only reason why they started fighting was because they couldn't hiding from the Reapers anymore.

I know that they only fought because they now have been cornered. But I'm thinking about what happened between two harvests. What did prevent them to uplift "lesser" races and use them as pawns against the reapers in order to eradicate them and then regain their place at the apex of the galaxy?

Also the ME3 codex entry about them theorize the possibility they have evolved in a planet where another sapient species lived and that race was dominated to serve as their thralls.
Also the modern galactic civilizations already have tecnology enough to shield themselves from the indocrination effects of their artifacts.

The enthralled civilizations were technologically advanced enough to create AIs and still were under the control of the Leviathans though.

Sure being so old means they have advanced thecnology but the way they evolved also make them very vulnerable: no thralls means they lose a lot of capability.
I am even willing to bet the Catalyst killed most of them by doing that...

Sure having thralls was advantageous but I don't think that they only relied on them. I'm pretty sure that they also had a big f*cking army. You know, just in case... Also their indoctrinating capabilities surpassed, by far, those of the Catalyst and the Reapers. If one (or three) Leviathan(s) could stun a sovereign class-ship, imagine what they were able to do as they were the rulers of the galaxy...
Anyways creating a super AI to solve synthetic/organic conflicts and give it a loose enough programming to allow it to turn against them, is one the most stupid decisions I've ever heard.

By the way, the Crucible was the work of several races through time, so i guess we can say it was a united effort from everyone past and present.

The Crucible's blueprint was ready long before our cycle. We found it miraculously and built it without having any clue of what it exactly did, but yeah you're right. However, the crucible was meant to defeat the Reapers, not the Leviathans. Good luck for finding another giant superweapon.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:58 .

[ElitePinecone]

Uncle Jo wrote...
Good luck for finding another giant superweapon.

Maybe there's another one lying around in the inexplicably untranslated Mars archives that nobody bothered to check for thirty years... 

[babachewie]

3DandBeyond wrote...

babachewie wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I think the Leviathans are a huge threat to the galaxy.

I think they are a prelude to ME4's main antagonists. 

And which ME4 would that be?  The one with green eyed people with reapers alive in it, the one with reaper overseers, the one with no synthetics and a lot of damaged tech, or the one that takes place sometime in the future, the far future?  Just wondering.:innocent:

The one with your mother. Hope that answers your question. What do you care? Bioware hurt you so bad, your dumb little brain crys itsef to sleep every night and you could never see yourself purchasing another one of their products. ONE FINAL PLEA! WAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

[Velocithon]

^^^idiot post of the day. The guy was simply stating Bioware would need to make a canon ending for ME3, which would really suck for those who never chose it.

[Mimitochan]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but, does it change anything if you shoot all the artefacts before going underwater? Do they have any sort of purpose? I think i found a total of 5 there.