42 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonPogo]

 I was just wondering who you all think is a character that might have died off that might get a hand wave resurrection?

P.S.  this post is not ment to be snarky just wondering what characters a future rolls you all think they would fill if brought back.

[riccaborto]

I hope they won't do canon survivors like "Leliana". I'd like something similar to ME:

If in YOUR game a certain character is dead, then it's dead, or viceversa if it is not.

Besides if you start a new game with no imported saves, I'd like to see the Qunari Sarebaas.

From Origins I'd like to see a grown-up Connor Guerrin, Mage.

[Wulfram]

I think they were more careful this time and thus wouldn't expect any resurrections.

Of party members Varric, Isabela, Aveline and Sebastian all can't die.
Anders will stay dead, though Justice might be around
Dead siblings will surely stay dead
Leaving Fenris and Merrill. I'd guess Fenris died more than Merrill, so Merrill might be the most likely to get resurrected, but I don't think it's likely. Unless they really want her to play a big role in some sort of mirror related stuff.

[Knight of Dane]

Wulfram wrote...

I think they were more careful this time and thus wouldn't expect any resurrections.

Of party members Varric, Isabela, Aveline and Sebastian all can't die.
Anders will stay dead, though Justice might be around
Dead siblings will surely stay dead
Leaving Fenris and Merrill. I'd guess Fenris died more than Merrill, so Merrill might be the most likely to get resurrected, but I don't think it's likely. Unless they really want her to play a big role in some sort of mirror related stuff.

Yeah i agree with this. I think bioware has had their lesson of fanrage. If not then Merrill is the one that was "hardest" to kill off, but that will only happen if they really want to give her a role. So far she and Fenris has both been largely ignored in DLC, so i can't se why they'd start now.

The only one i really have a concern about is Anders. If he lives i think he will return, if he's dead i would worry that Justice might return in his undead body.

[David Gaider]

Knight of Dane wrote...
Yeah i agree with this. I think bioware has had their lesson of fanrage.

Why would you think this? Yes, some people get upset when the story doesn't go the way they want it to go or their choices between games aren't treated the same way as within the game... and?

There will always be an element among the fans who complain about things they don't like, that's nothing new. They're the ones who are more outspoken; it's human nature. While I've no plans to bring anyone back from the dead, that's certainly not because anyone complained about it... and it still won't stop them from from complaining about every other decision they made not being treated as sacrosanct or not having the effect they wanted it to. Which doesn't, of course, mean it won't have an effect... they'll just complain it's not the one they want.

Which is not to dismiss them-- complaining is still feedback, when it's rational. But there you go.

[Knight of Dane]

David Gaider wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
Yeah i agree with this. I think bioware has had their lesson of fanrage.

Why would you think this? Yes, some people get upset when the story doesn't go the way they want it to go or their choices between games aren't treated the same way as within the game... and?

There will always be an element among the fans who complain about things they don't like, that's nothing new. They're the ones who are more outspoken; it's human nature. While I've no plans to bring anyone back from the dead, that's certainly not because anyone complained about it... and it still won't stop them from from complaining about every other decision they made not being treated as sacrosanct or not having the effect they wanted it to. Which doesn't, of course, mean it won't have an effect... they'll just complain it's not the one they want.

Which is not to dismiss them-- complaining is still feedback, when it's rational. But there you go.

And it's not rational that when you kill someone in a RPG they should stay that way?

I never had the problem myself as Anders, Leliana or Wynne never died in any of my playthroughs (Even though i have 36 of those in DAO) and they seem to be the source of the complaints, but i can understand if others are upset that their choice - in a game series branded for their player-friendly freedom - is being ignored or excused.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 28 août 2012 - 04:15 .

[Craverguy]

I just think it's kind of odd that BioWare decided to leave Nathaniel Howe out of The Exiled Prince since there was the possibility that he could be killed during Awakening, while making the companion who is most important to the game's plot...someone who could be killed during Awakening. What's sauce for the goose, as Mitt Romney might say?

(Note: this has never been a problem for me, since I've never deliberately killed off or driven away any of my party members, except Anders at the end of DAII. Why would I voluntarily make myself weaker?)

[David Gaider]

Knight of Dane wrote...
And it's not rational that when you kill someone in a RPG they should stay that way?

I mean expressed in a rational manner. It's one thing to say you didn't like the reactivity and wished it was something different, or you didn't like that there wasn't reactivity for something at all. You can even complain that the choices between games should have the same weight as the choices within them (or more), even if I don't agree.

I know that some people feel very all-or-nothing about it... either every single decision must carry forward and be treated as having equal weight between games, no matter how minor, or none of it should... and that's fine if they feel that way, but raging about it as if it's a personal attack seems like an odd way to express it if you don't want to have your opinion dismissed out of hand.

I mean, at one point someone snarked at me "so you decide what meaning life and death has in Thedas?" ...to which the answer is "Yes. Yes I do. That is, in fact, my job."

We're going to do our best to write a good story that takes into account choices between games as much as possible, but the former takes precedence over the latter. There are lots of other considerations, of course... some of which are beyond my control (I am only "in charge" of the story to the point where it conflicts with other project goals)... and if someone wants to sneer at that and sum it up as artistic integrity as if that's somehow a bad thing, well alrighty. I know what they want and we'll do what we can. Can't really promise much more than that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 août 2012 - 05:47 .

[Craverguy]

The decision to kill off a party member is hardly a minor one. Why even include it if you aren't 100% sure you can do the next game if that character is dead (or even want to)?

[babymoon]

Hopefully not Merrill.

I think Fenris and Anders will make a comeback, or at least I hope, since they're both still alive in my game. I would like to see DA3 cater a bit more to your imported saves though ala Mass Effect. In that, if Anders died in your game, he should stay dead.

But I do kind of agree with Gaider as well, I think Bioware fans are becoming way too selfish and nitpicky. I mean, yes, a lot of people thought DA2 was bad (wasn't one of them) and I still hate what ME3 chose to be, but they shouldn't have to make their games to fit every one of our wants and needs. Take some fan feedback is great though.

Modifié par babymoon, 28 août 2012 - 06:47 .

[accidentalzombi]

To ****** most everyone off, have Anders come back AND be a LI.

[Brockololly]

babymoon wrote...
But I do kind of agree with Gaider as well, I think Bioware fans are becoming way too selfish and nitpicky. I mean, yes, a lot of people thought DA2 was bad (wasn't one of them) and I still hate what ME3 chose to be, but they shouldn't have to make their games to fit every one of our wants and needs. Take some fan feedback is great though.

I don't see any wailing and gnashing of teeth in this thread. The problem with Leliana coming back if you killed her in DA:O is just one of mismanaged expectations and clumsy writing. With Dragon Age, I think people thought that dead was dead. As a setting it wasn't D&D High Fantasy where resurrection could be more commonplace. Maybe Leliana's possible resurrection gets explained eventually, but until then her re-appearance to the player seems out of left field and at odds with how the rest of the world of Dragon Age handles death.

So when you have the choice to kill someone off and you actually kill them off in game, you expect that they'll stay dead. Obviously its fantasy so there might be some exception to the rule, but then you'd expect that to be at least explained or made a notable plot point. With Leliana its just "Oh, yeah, hey I'm alive. 'Sup" with no explanation, which you can weakly justify since Hawke didn't kill her but then you're disconnecting the player from the player character.

I'd much prefer choices like that handled like The Walking Dead where the deaths can be pretty much totally scripted but its the choice you make that matters. So you might have the option to save person A or B but unbeknownst to you, person A ends up dying no matter what. But you end up choosing to save person A and he dies, while person B gets saved by his father. But the other characters around you remember what choice you made and react to that, even if you didn't control the outcome. So then the father of person B doesn't trust you as much since you didn't even try to save person B, while some other character that maybe was close to person A might recognize that you tried to save them and be appreciative. You have satisfying reactivity even if the plot outcome in terms of life and death is one size fits all.

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 août 2012 - 08:10 .

[David Gaider]

Craverguy wrote...
The decision to kill off a party member is hardly a minor one. Why even include it if you aren't 100% sure you can do the next game if that character is dead (or even want to)?

Well, because

a) Plans change. All the time.

Decisions are meant to have reactivity inside the game where they're made. Having reactivity between games is great, but there's a reason that most games don't even make the attempt. Thus we'll do it when we can, but decisions between games don't generally have the same weight as they do inside the game... with exceptions. Some decisions are fundamental (the "Old God Baby" being an example).

c) Having the option to kill a character doesn't mean we ever intended to have them remain dead. Usually that's the case, yes, but not always. That the player's expectation doesn't match our intention is sometimes inevitable... at least until we explain ourselves full (such as with Leliana), but I imagine in some cases the explanation will still not be satisfactory if the result isn't what the player expected. Whether their expectations were reasonable or not is really beside the point.

Anyway, I've chimed in on this conversation as much as I dare. Thanks for the reasonable tone of the discussion.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[AbsoluteApril]

David Gaider wrote...

Decisions are meant to have reactivity inside the game where they're made. Having reactivity between games is great, but there's a reason that most games don't even make the attempt. Thus we'll do it when we can, but decisions between games don't generally have the same weight as they do inside the game... with exceptions. Some decisions are fundamental (the "Old God Baby" being an example).

I take it the bolded statement means there will be an old god baby regardless of the player's decision in DA:O?  Perhaps that was discussed before and I missed it. (side note, I'm okay with that as long as an explanation is given that makes sense within the lore.)

Was the Leliana death/resurrection explained? (a codex I overlooked?)

[cJohnOne]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Decisions are meant to have reactivity inside the game where they're made. Having reactivity between games is great, but there's a reason that most games don't even make the attempt. Thus we'll do it when we can, but decisions between games don't generally have the same weight as they do inside the game... with exceptions. Some decisions are fundamental (the "Old God Baby" being an example).

I take it the bolded statement means there will be an old god baby regardless of the player's decision in DA:O?  Perhaps that was discussed before and I missed it. (side note, I'm okay with that as long as an explanation is given that makes sense within the lore.)

Was the Leliana death/resurrection explained? (a codex I overlooked?)

No I think David was saying the opposite with respect to the OGB.  This is bad new for me who likes the OGB idea.  Either that or they could have two different versions of game which I doubt will happen.

[Leoroc]

No, that statement means the Old God Baby is only canon if you made that choice in DAO.

David Gaider wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Making the Ogb canon is Impossible without a full retcon which I can Assure you will not be taken in with open arms, especially after the whole me3 debacle over choices not mattering and 'space magic'

While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental. So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Whether[/i] how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should [i]be the entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely. That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote.

[cJohnOne]

I also think it means we are less likelly to see Morrigan in the game which I thought would excite the fan base!

[Renmiri1]

accidentalzombi wrote...

To ****** most everyone off, have Anders come back AND be a LI.

Nope, al lot of Anders fans on the  LI threads. 

His story and romance were very well written. Even with his Act 3 betrayal a lot of people, myself included, forgive him and chalk that bad deed to Vengeance 

[King Cousland]

David Gaider wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
And it's not rational that when you kill someone in a RPG they should stay that way?

I mean expressed in a rational manner. It's one thing to say you didn't like the reactivity and wished it was something different, or you didn't like that there wasn't reactivity for something at all. You can even complain that the choices between games should have the same weight as the choices within them (or more), even if I don't agree.

I know that some people feel very all-or-nothing about it... either every single decision must carry forward and be treated as having equal weight between games, no matter how minor, or none of it should... and that's fine if they feel that way, but raging about it as if it's a personal attack seems like an odd way to express it if you don't want to have your opinion dismissed out of hand.

I mean, at one point someone snarked at me "so you decide what meaning life and death has in Thedas?" ...to which the answer is "Yes. Yes I do. That is, in fact, my job."

We're going to do our best to write a good story that takes into account choices between games as much as possible, but the former takes precedence over the latter. There are lots of other considerations, of course... some of which are beyond my control (I am only "in charge" of the story to the point where it conflicts with other project goals)... and if someone wants to sneer at that and sum it up as artistic integrity as if that's somehow a bad thing, well alrighty. I know what they want and we'll do what we can. Can't really promise much more than that.

Would it be reasonable to ask for an explanation for any potential retcons? For example, if my Warden crowned Anora but Alistair is king in DA III (I really hope that won't be the case), could we at least get a mention or codex entry that said something like, "Queen Anora was killed during an elven riot 9:40 Dragon. Leaving no heir, the Landsmeet decided that Alistair, once a candidate for the throne and the last surviving Theirin, should become king. The Grey Warden reluctantly accepted." 

[Knight of Dane]

David Gaider wrote...

We're going to do our best to write a good story that takes into account choices between games as much as possible, but the former takes precedence over the latter. There are lots of other considerations, of course... some of which are beyond my control (I am only "in charge" of the story to the point where it conflicts with other project goals)... and if someone wants to sneer at that and sum it up as artistic integrity as if that's somehow a bad thing, well alrighty. I know what they want and we'll do what we can. Can't really promise much more than that.

I don't doubt that you are doing your best. I never blamed any developer personally and I am only just starting to study games design and story development myself, so I won't try to challenge your experience in this business.
But ultimately your purpose as a development team is to deliver a product that doesn't rob anyone of anything, especially when we talk about a series of continous storylines.

I know that's a pretty tall order, but that's what I've been taught while studying game creation and writing. You should always aspire to do your best and honestly, I could have seen all Leliana's cameoes not to be in the game without that big of a difference. The agent from the Divine in act 3 could easily be played by a whole new character, and her other apperances doesn't really do anything.

All i said was that after that, fans will be very judgemental. Not me, there is certainly elements of the second game i didn't enjoy, many of them in fact. But I am still a huge fan of the universe and am looking very much forward to the next installment.

[Renmiri1]

David Gaider wrote...

We're going to do our best to write a good story that takes into account choices between games as much as possible, but the former takes precedence over the latter. There are lots of other considerations, of course... some of which are beyond my control (I am only "in charge" of the story to the point where it conflicts with other project goals)... and if someone wants to sneer at that and sum it up as artistic integrity as if that's somehow a bad thing, well alrighty. I know what they want and we'll do what we can. Can't really promise much more than that.

I see you have been talking to the ME3 team 

Two things.
1) Nerdrage at seeing characters "ressurrected" is nowhere near the intensity as the nerdrage caused at seeing characters killed. Particularly if your Player Character is the one who dies at the end. You may feel you need to do it for your vision but prepare to see nerdrage if you do. It's just human nature. We love your characters and hate to see them die against our wishes
2) I have a lot more confidence on the DA team than I have on the ME team. You are a joy to me and many


PS: Just don't make an  ending with 3 color coded options where mages and templars merge and live happily ever after on the green choice. I don't think it will go over well... Listen to Alistair: "Swooping and color coded endings are bad"  

Modifié par Renmiri1, 28 août 2012 - 09:14 .

[AbsoluteApril]

cJohnOne wrote...
No I think David was saying the opposite with respect to the OGB. This is bad new for me who likes the OGB idea. Either that or they could have two different versions of game which I doubt will happen.

Leoroc wrote...
No, that statement means the Old God Baby is only canon if you made that choice in DAO.

Hmph, well now I'm really confused.

I had asked my father what Mr. Gaider meant by this stament since I wasn't sure: "Some decisions are fundamental” 

dad replied "I'd guess he means fundamental as in a necessary part of the game logic and will remain the same no matter what.  As in a "fundamental truth" that remains constant inside the ecosystem of the game world.  Sort of like humans needing oxygen to live is a fundamental on Earth, and no matter what situation you're in or what decisions you make it remains constant."

Perhaps what Mr. Gaider meant is that whatever decision BioWare comes to in regards to the old god baby will be the default? (and we, the players don't know what that final decision will be yet?) 

Maybe he'll glance back at this thread and clarify..

[Leoroc]

So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

Seems pretty clear to me

[Darth Krytie]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...
No I think David was saying the opposite with respect to the OGB. This is bad new for me who likes the OGB idea. Either that or they could have two different versions of game which I doubt will happen.

Leoroc wrote...
No, that statement means the Old God Baby is only canon if you made that choice in DAO.

Hmph, well now I'm really confused.

I had asked my father what Mr. Gaider meant by this stament since I wasn't sure: "Some decisions are fundamental” 

dad replied "I'd guess he means fundamental as in a necessary part of the game logic and will remain the same no matter what.  As in a "fundamental truth" that remains constant inside the ecosystem of the game world.  Sort of like humans needing oxygen to live is a fundamental on Earth, and no matter what situation you're in or what decisions you make it remains constant."

Perhaps what Mr. Gaider meant is that whatever decision BioWare comes to in regards to the old god baby will be the default? (and we, the players don't know what that final decision will be yet?) 

Maybe he'll glance back at this thread and clarify..

Actually, he's posted in an another thread and said whatever the player decides regarding the OGB is what will have happened.

[obZen DF]

Wait, Leliana can die in DA:O???
Wow, never knew that. (She's my fav character of all DA)

About ´the fundamental decisions´: I think the OGB decision is one of the biggest decisions in DA. So, to not expand upon that decision in DA3 regarding the players who chose to do the Dark Ritual, is...well, weird. I can understand that people get all upset when they chose to sacrifice themselves instead of the Dark Ritual, and when DA3 comes out, it comes with an important aspect about the OGB. But, it can be made canon. Just look at The Silent Grove, where you follow 'King' Alistair. Seems to me that the writers intended to make Alistair king, despite the player choice.

If they do that with the OGB, I think alot of people will be happy. Because it's such an important part of the DA story/canon. (in my opinion)

Modifié par obZen DF, 28 août 2012 - 09:40 .