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My Main Problem with the Ending


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#26
Vinkhor

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JSlither wrote...

People that defend the Templars puzzle me.


Must be the nice looking templar armour suits.  

To the OP. It`s not surprising that you don`t find any morally ambiguous in the end. Because in Act 3, Meredith is slowly loosing her sanity, which is caused by that raw lyrium forged into her weapon (pretty much like what happened to Varric`s brother). Maybe she was a reasonable person before (and i think she was, judging by how she rejected the "tranquil solution"), but during " the last straw " she`s obviously far from being 100% sane anymore. So, what did you expect from a mad woman? Good reason?  Not much, close to none.

While Meredith has an understandable excuse for her lack of sense, at that point in the game, the chantry however, does not. The chantry makes for such a poor excuse, in justification for the abuses against mages. The oppressed will eventualy raise against their oppressors. The chantry should know this better, because it`s how it was born, after an event like this (Andraste vs Tevinter Imperium). And now the chantry is doing the same thing to the mages and expects no consequences?

#27
Renmiri1

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Elthina didn't deserve to be killed but she sure deserved to be "promoted" toa country chantry with half a dozen farmers as her flock and nothing more stressful than that! :devil:

Modifié par Renmiri1, 30 août 2012 - 08:14 .


#28
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The question is what is the moral basis of DA world?

You guys always claim it is a fantasy world, but still the morality here is real world morality. But when i talk about real world, you guys hate me.

In Oblivion, you can kill as many Goblins you like, killing Goblins is ok, you meet them you kill them, and you are encouraged to kill as many Goblins as you want. That is the morality in TES world. Even the Goblins have done nothing to you, but can sneak and kill them, or blown them up with spells, or slash them with your sword without pity...it is okay in Oblivion.

You can also kill an innocent NPC just to join the Dark Brotherhood, or you steal because want to join Thieve Guild in Oblivion, i mean it is okay to kill and steal to join a group in Oblivion.

So here...what is the basis of morality in DA world?

Modifié par Nizaris1, 31 août 2012 - 03:08 .


#29
Renmiri1

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Err.. What ?

TES world has morals ? You mean I am their Dragonborn hero while being the leader of the Dark Brotherhood and killing people for sport ?

I don't see why or how you would apply the same morals of a First World culture to a place where Ogres and Demons kill you on sight.

#30
mazdatazda

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#31
Guest_Nizaris1_*

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Clearly you don't understand my English

what i mean is in TES, that is the moral in TES world

The example moral st up in TES/Oblivion world are
- it is okay to kill as many Goblins you want
- it is okay to kill innocent people to get recruited into dark Brotherhood
- it is okay to steal to get into Thieve Guild

all these thing above are NOT WRONG as according to Oblivion morality

That is the MORALITY in TES/Oblivion world, it is a fantasy world, the moral of that fantasy world created, if you live in that world, it is okay for you to do the things above

What is the basis of moral in DA?

DA morality is still bound to real world morality...that is moral based on real cultural, real religion and real phylosophy.

For templar supporter ---> someone kill his wife to use blood magic...you see it wrong because your morality is real world morality

For mage supporter---> someone have a power to lobotomize some people who born in such way... you see it wrong because your morality is real world morality

Modifié par Nizaris1, 31 août 2012 - 06:11 .


#32
dragonflight288

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Nizaris1 wrote...

Clearly you don't understand my English

what i mean is in TES, that is the moral in TES world

The example moral st up in TES/Oblivion world are
- it is okay to kill as many Goblins you want
- it is okay to kill innocent people to get recruited into dark Brotherhood
- it is okay to steal to get into Thieve Guild

all these thing above are NOT WRONG as according to Oblivion morality

That is the MORALITY in TES/Oblivion world, it is a fantasy world, the moral of that fantasy world created, if you live in that world, it is okay for you to do the things above

What is the basis of moral in DA?

DA morality is still bound to real world morality...that is moral based on real cultural, real religion and real phylosophy.

For templar supporter ---> someone kill his wife to use blood magic...you see it wrong because your morality is real world morality

For mage supporter---> someone have a power to lobotomize some people who born in such way... you see it wrong because your morality is real world morality


:innocent: You sure that's accepted morality in Oblivion?

Last time I played (last night,) if I stole from someone or murdered someone in the game, and someone saw me, I would be arrested. Good decent people would condemn me and my actions...until my bounty was paid or my time in jail was spent.

We can be evil characters. And if we're careful in the game, we don't suffer many consequences for our actions. That doesn't make them morally correct.

#33
Arthur Cousland

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My main problem is that the outcome is the same no matter who you side with.  Even if you're pro-templar and Hawke becomes Viscount, they still disappear and the circles disband.

#34
Dagr88

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It seams that many people forget the main reason why the problem with mages requires measures such as circle/tranquility/templars and so on.

That reason is Demons... You know, those things that represent such emotions as Rage, Lust, Pride. They can't be trusted/reasoned with. They make contracts with stupid/mentally weak/prideful/desperate/powerhungry/... mages (most people in DA and our world belong to one or several of those categories). And after such contract they are ticking bombs who are several times stronger that the mage him/herself.

If it was just mages vs templars then there could be found some middle ground/consensus. But that "+ vs Demon" part creates situation with no peaceful/moral solutions.

About OP. I myself always side with the templars. Why?  5:45 .  If angry mob isn't present to kill (but mostly die), the kill count will drop significantly. And now you can start explaining how 1 mage's life is worth several dozens Kirkwall citizen's lifes.

(Sorry for my English)

Modifié par Dagr88, 31 août 2012 - 08:58 .


#35
dragonflight288

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It seams that many people forget the main reason why the problem with mages requires measures such as circle/tranquility/templars and so on.


You won't find a single mage supporter who downplays the danger of demons. What you'll find are mage supporters stating, and using in-game examples, of mages running to the demons or putting themselves into situations where demons can easily possess them, because they're desperate to escape the templars oppressing them.

#36
TEWR

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Arthur Cousland wrote...

My main problem is that the outcome is the same no matter who you side with.  Even if you're pro-templar and Hawke becomes Viscount, they still disappear and the circles disband.


Having the outcome be the same no matter what -- Hawke leaving and being hard to find -- isn't inherently a bad concept IMO, so long as it leaves room for headcanon as to just why and how he disappeared or is addressed later on. The path to that outcome should be substantially different however, which is something DAII as a whole lacked.

Now, personally I would've made the game end with Hawke becoming Viscount no matter what due to Templar support and power in Kirkwall having been reduced so much that they can no longer control the nobility. But I would've changed the entire game's structure to allow the player to change up their path towards that end.

Still would've tackled the expedition, Qunari, Mages and Templars, but it would've been better done and more linked together. And also, come the endgame choice it would've played out differently depending on which side you chose, what your actions in-game were, and what few choices you make during the endgame.

Nothing to carry forward into other games, but enough to change how you handled that endgame scenario.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 août 2012 - 10:53 .


#37
SeptimusMagistos

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Dagr88 wrote...

It seams that many people forget the main reason why the problem with mages requires measures such as circle/tranquility/templars and so on.

That reason is Demons... You know, those things that represent such emotions as Rage, Lust, Pride. They can't be trusted/reasoned with. They make contracts with stupid/mentally weak/prideful/desperate/powerhungry/... mages (most people in DA and our world belong to one or several of those categories). And after such contract they are ticking bombs who are several times stronger that the mage him/herself.

If it was just mages vs templars then there could be found some middle ground/consensus. But that "+ vs Demon" part creates situation with no peaceful/moral solutions.

About OP. I myself always side with the templars. Why?  5:45 .  If angry mob isn't present to kill (but mostly die), the kill count will drop significantly. And now you can start explaining how 1 mage's life is worth several dozens Kirkwall citizen's lifes.

(Sorry for my English)


Easily. The angry mob are the aggressors. They attacked an innocent person. So they should be the ones to die. If the mage were the one attacking innocent people, the mage would have been the one to die.

Also, while the demons are a problem, the circles are clearly making the problem worse rather than better. Mages all over Kirkwall are turning to blood magic and demons just to have a way of fighting back against Templar oppression. They'd be able to be much more cautious if they were free.

#38
Heimdall

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SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Dagr88 wrote...

It seams that many people forget the main reason why the problem with mages requires measures such as circle/tranquility/templars and so on.

That reason is Demons... You know, those things that represent such emotions as Rage, Lust, Pride. They can't be trusted/reasoned with. They make contracts with stupid/mentally weak/prideful/desperate/powerhungry/... mages (most people in DA and our world belong to one or several of those categories). And after such contract they are ticking bombs who are several times stronger that the mage him/herself.

If it was just mages vs templars then there could be found some middle ground/consensus. But that "+ vs Demon" part creates situation with no peaceful/moral solutions.

About OP. I myself always side with the templars. Why?  5:45 .  If angry mob isn't present to kill (but mostly die), the kill count will drop significantly. And now you can start explaining how 1 mage's life is worth several dozens Kirkwall citizen's lifes.

(Sorry for my English)


Easily. The angry mob are the aggressors. They attacked an innocent person. So they should be the ones to die. If the mage were the one attacking innocent people, the mage would have been the one to die.

Also, while the demons are a problem, the circles are clearly making the problem worse rather than better. Mages all over Kirkwall are turning to blood magic and demons just to have a way of fighting back against Templar oppression. They'd be able to be much more cautious if they were free.

To be fair, Kirkwall is a uniquely bad place as far as the veil is concerned.

#39
Renmiri1

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Dagr88 wrote...

It seams that many people forget the main reason why the problem with mages requires measures such as circle/tranquility/templars and so on.

That reason is Demons... You know, those things that represent such emotions as Rage, Lust, Pride. They can't be trusted/reasoned with. They make contracts with stupid/mentally weak/prideful/desperate/powerhungry/... mages (most people in DA and our world belong to one or several of those categories). And after such contract they are ticking bombs who are several times stronger that the mage him/herself.

If it was just mages vs templars then there could be found some middle ground/consensus. But that "+ vs Demon" part creates situation with no peaceful/moral solutions.

About OP. I myself always side with the templars. Why?  5:45 .  If angry mob isn't present to kill (but mostly die), the kill count will drop significantly. And now you can start explaining how 1 mage's life is worth several dozens Kirkwall citizen's lifes.

(Sorry for my English)


Majority >>> Minorities ?

You do know that this has been the reasoning behind many a genocide, right ? 

Bettter hang the dark skinned guy than let our outstanding white citizens be hurt. He is just one, they are many. Jewish people ? Minority.. Japanese living in US during WW2 ? Better lock them up in internment camps than risk having our majority harmed in any way...

Besides, your argument is based entirely in the assumption that there will be less casualties if we kill all mages fast. I propose to you that mages cornered "go Demon" and kill many, whereas a templar cornered just dies. Much better to kill templars since they have no fireballs :P

#40
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dragonflight288 wrote...

:innocent: You sure that's accepted morality in Oblivion?

Last time I played (last night,) if I stole from someone or murdered someone in the game, and someone saw me, I would be arrested. Good decent people would condemn me and my actions...until my bounty was paid or my time in jail was spent.

We can be evil characters. And if we're careful in the game, we don't suffer many consequences for our actions. That doesn't make them morally correct.


It is acceptable to the faction you belong to.

Yes, you will get captured by the psychic guards if anyone (or even a horse) report you, but you have 3 choices, pay fine, go to jail or resist. In anyway, if you clear up the bounty, you can be in the society again. Let say you kill someone, guard arrest you, you go to jail, you get out, you kill again. Dark Brotherhood will love you....you get infamy points which means some people love you, some others hate you. If you do the main quest, it doesn't even matter, you are the Champion of Cyrodill

In the Arena, you kill for money, and it is honorable

If you are the Grey Fox, you steal using the mask, the "Grey Fox" who got the bounty, not you

If you have high personality, any crime below 1000 bounty are forgiven just like that....and if you have the highest personality possible, no one want to fight you even for self defense (except few creatures and enemies)

But my point is, Oblivion morality is Oblivion morality. It is the morality of Cyrodill/Tamriel. When you go to Skingard, the Fighter Guild encourage you to hunt Goblins, for sport, meaning it have been set that you can genocide the whole Goblin population and it is not wrong doing that. Those Goblins never bother you at all in the game unless you are in their territory.

That is not so in DA universe, in DA you still bound to your real world morality.

Modifié par Nizaris1, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:49 .


#41
dragonflight288

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Nizaris1 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

:innocent: You sure that's accepted morality in Oblivion?

Last time I played (last night,) if I stole from someone or murdered someone in the game, and someone saw me, I would be arrested. Good decent people would condemn me and my actions...until my bounty was paid or my time in jail was spent.

We can be evil characters. And if we're careful in the game, we don't suffer many consequences for our actions. That doesn't make them morally correct.


It is acceptable to the faction you belong to.

Yes, you will get captured by the psychic guards if anyone (or even a horse) report you, but you have 3 choices, pay fine, go to jail or resist. In anyway, if you clear up the bounty, you can be in the society again. Let say you kill someone, guard arrest you, you go to jail, you get out, you kill again. Dark Brotherhood will love you....you get infamy points which means some people love you, some others hate you. If you do the main quest, it doesn't even matter, you are the Champion of Cyrodill

In the Arena, you kill for money, and it is honorable

If you are the Grey Fox, you steal using the mask, the "Grey Fox" who got the bounty, not you

If you have high personality, any crime below 1000 bounty are forgiven just like that....and if you have the highest personality possible, no one want to fight you even for self defense (except few creatures and enemies)

But my point is, Oblivion morality is Oblivion morality. It is the morality of Cyrodill/Tamriel. When you go to Skingard, the Fighter Guild encourage you to hunt Goblins, for sport, meaning it have been set that you can genocide the whole Goblin population and it is not wrong doing that. Those Goblins never bother you at all in the game unless you are in their territory.

That is not so in DA universe, in DA you still bound to your real world morality.



Hmm. Okay...where do I start. You do make some sense, but I wholeheartedly disagree with a few points.

It is acceptable to the faction you belong to.


So are the actions of terrrorist cells and murdering cults. Some cultists here in the U.S. advocated murder as a way of life before being caught and taken down.

In the Arena, you kill for money, and it is honorable


The same thing applied to Ancient Rome. In many societies, they don't have gladiator fights, but they force animals to fight to the death. There are underground dog-fighting arenas here in the U.S. Illegal, but it's still a sport. Is it right? No, but there you have it.

If you are the Grey Fox, you steal using the mask, the "Grey Fox" who got the bounty, not you


Sounds like framing someone else (a double identity) for a crime. A smart criminal can do the same. Doesn't make it right, but that's simply how it is. Smart criminals are doing aborant things, but if they can get away with it, blaming someone else, they will.

But my point is, Oblivion morality is Oblivion morality. It is the
morality of Cyrodill/Tamriel. When you go to Skingard, the Fighter Guild
encourage you to hunt Goblins, for sport, meaning it have been set that
you can genocide the whole Goblin population and it is not wrong doing
that. Those Goblins never bother you at all in the game unless you are
in their territory.


Can't argue there. I don't know if Goblins are sentient or not, but if they attack and kill passing civilians, they do become a problem.

That is not so in DA universe, in DA you still bound to your real world morality.


I would argue that applies to every game. We all meta-game in some way, and see some things in various ways. We all have diverse backgrounds, and diverse perspectives. Your perspectives and background will allow you to see things in a way that me and mine will prevent me from seeing, because I don't naturally think about it. 

But in the end, at the end of the day, they are just games. And ultimately, no one is hurt but fictional characters made up by pixels in the middle of a tv screen.

#42
Renmiri1

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So in what way killing ghasts on MotA is different than killing goblins ?

#43
SeptimusMagistos

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Just by the by: I think it's presupposed that the goblins do evil things in general, which makes it okay to kill them when you see some. Or at least that's the default assumption of most fantasy universes.

#44
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So are the actions of terrrorist cells and murdering cults. Some cultists here in the U.S. advocated murder as a way of life before being caught and taken down.


Dark brotherhood nis a well known faction, when Emperor is killed, the guards raiding them, but it is not them who kill, the real bad guys in Oblivion is Mythic Dawn, only this faction that make you cannot complete the game if you join them permanently. Dark Brotherhood are hired assassins, but they recruit members in unique way.

And everybody advertise them...everybody will tell you "if you murder someone, the dark brotherhood will come when you sleep, that is how they recruit their members", it is not a meta-gamming, at the very first time you play you will hear that. So if you want to join Dark Brotherhood, just murder someone...


The same thing applied to Ancient Rome. In many societies, they don't have gladiator fights, but they force animals to fight to the death. There are underground dog-fighting arenas here in the U.S. Illegal, but it's still a sport. Is it right? No, but there you have it.


Gladiator fighting is acceptable in Rome, they see no wrong in it, they enjoy it. That is the morality of the people of Rome until it was banned by Marcus Aurelius as i remember, correct me if i am wrong. So the same with Imperial City and the whole Cyrodill world, joining the Arena faction legalize you to kill for money and fame, and it is alright. You will not be arrested by guards killing people in the Arena.


Sounds like framing someone else (a double identity) for a crime. A smart criminal can do the same. Doesn't make it right, but that's simply how it is. Smart criminals are doing aborant things, but if they can get away with it, blaming someone else, they will.


yes, but when you remove the mask infront of the guards, the guards don't touch you, lol


Can't argue there. I don't know if Goblins are sentient or not, but if they attack and kill passing civilians, they do become a problem.


The Goblins are actually intelligent race in TES, but it never show properly to the player, only one quest relate them that showing they are like any other races in Tamriel. The quest invove diplomacy.

But to the player, we perceived them as a race that okay to be wiped out, it is because before that specific quest the Goblins never talk or dealing with you, you are in their territory they attack you, and peoples encourage you to hunt them down and kill them all, which means going into their territory and kill them.

What i mean is, the morality in Tamriel dictate that killing Goblins is not a crime. So if you live in Tamriel, you can kill any Goblins you see.

But can you just kill any races you see in this real world? No


But in the end, at the end of the day, they are just games. And ultimately, no one is hurt but fictional characters made up by pixels in the middle of a tv screen.


Yes of course...

oh before i forgot, in TES you can capture someone soul and trap them in a stone/gem...it is Soul Trap spell, this action can make you recharge your enchanted weapons. Can you imagine trap someone soul in a stone to recharge your weapon? That practice is widely acceptable in TES. There are some who argue but generally it is okay...

that is the morality i am talking about, the fantasy morality...not connected to real world

But in DA, you must choose faction based on your own morality, and your morality is real world morality.

Modifié par Nizaris1, 01 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .


#45
Dagr88

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Nizaris1 wrote...

But in DA, you must choose faction based on your own morality, and your morality is real world morality.


So... Is that a good or a bad thing? Are you afraid that some people in the real world might get morally sensitive and will start to light houses on fire whenever they see injustice? Or the ending is great because there is no red guy with horns who's favorite phrase is "I LUV TO EAT BABIES! JUM JUM" and you have to actually judge situation based on what you have seen through whole game and your real life moral standards.

There is no right choice but there are many excuses:
- My girl/boyfriend is a mage/anti-mage so I will support her/his side
- Meredith couldn't be my love interest so she and her order must die
- I think this choice will produce less corpses
- If I was born a mage I would want to be treated fairly
- I must protect the oppressed!
- Mages can't be trusted!
- And so on...

Yes, I know that it's just a game! So I'll give 2 answers for the question "why I choose templars every time":
- I think it will create less corpses (moral choice... maybe it means that I'm less emotional and more calculating type of person)
- I love to arrange political marriages, Grey Warden + Anora, Hawke + Sebastian (game choice... I usually never play female characters if I'm able to choose, and yes I do think that in DA3 1 of the plot lines will be about unification of Free Marches)

Modifié par Dagr88, 01 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .


#46
Vinkhor

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Dagr88 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

But in DA, you must choose faction based on your own morality, and your morality is real world morality.


So... Is that a good or a bad thing? Are you afraid that some people in the real world might get morally sensitive and will start to light houses on fire whenever they see injustice? Or the ending is great because there is no red guy with horns who's favorite phrase is "I LUV TO EAT BABIES! JUM JUM" and you have to actually judge situation based on what you have seen through whole game and your real life moral standards.

There is no right choice but there are many excuses:
- My girl/boyfriend is a mage/anti-mage so I will support her/his side
- Meredith couldn't be my love interest so she and her order must die
- I think this choice will produce less corpses
- If I was born a mage I would want to be treated fairly
- I must protect the oppressed!
- Mages can't be trusted!
- And so on...

Yes, I know that it's just a game! So I'll give 2 answers for the question "why I choose templars every time":
- I think it will create less corpses
(moral choice... maybe it means that I'm less emotional and more calculating type of person)
- I love to arrange political marriages, Grey Warden + Anora, Hawke + Sebastian (game choice... I usually never play female characters if I'm able to choose, and yes I do think that in DA3 1 of the plot lines will be about unification of Free Marches)


Actually mantaining a constant conflict between templars-mages will generate far more corpses in the end, than a few possessed mages will ever do it normally. (Just look at what Anders did. It`s obviously his fault, but if there wasn`t this conflict he wouldn`t have any reasons in the world to blow up the chantry. So, if this conflict can turn a peaceful healer into a terorrist, it can only lead to more corpeses in the end). 

#47
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So... Is that a good or a bad thing? Are you afraid that some people in the real world might get morally sensitive and will start to light houses on fire whenever they see injustice? Or the ending is great because there is no red guy with horns who's favorite phrase is "I LUV TO EAT BABIES! JUM JUM" and you have to actually judge situation based on what you have seen through whole game and your real life moral standards.


There is no clear line of morality of DA universe, not like in TES. I mean your morality in DA world is real world mortality. The things you mentioned is based on your intuitive mirrored your real life. If you are a mage, if your boyfriend a mage, if your family a Templar and so on, your judgment is based on your own, not what DA world provide you.

In TES, when you kill Goblin, it have nothing to reflect real world morality because in Tamriel you can kill Goblins as many as you like. There is no right or wrong based on real world right or wrong here. In TES, you can trap anyone soul into a gem to recharge your weapon, it is not wrong at all in TES morality.

In DA, when you kill a Mage or a Templar, you have your reason based on what you perceive on both faction. When you support Meredith it is because in your perspective Meredith is right, when you support Mages, in your perspective the Templar is wrong. Right and wrong here is based on real world right and wrong.

In TES, you can join any faction with no real world right or wrong decision. it is all based on TES standard morality.

In DA, you are not given the standard DA morality, the game forced you to choose faction based on your own standard morality, in which real world morality.

That is why we can make comparisons DA with real world...many fans did no matter Templar supporter or Mage supporter, both have own view based on their own experience and phylosophy of what is morality. it is not DA world morality, but player world morality

Modifié par Nizaris1, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .


#48
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Ehh.

I don't dispute that calling for the blood of many to pay for the crime of one is amoral. Siding with Meredith for Meredith's reasons is not just.

The 'grey' decision is that whoever you side with, people are going to die who don't deserve to. Mages who are innocent, templars who don't have all the facts, civilians caught in the crossfire, and the inevitable fallout of loose mages who happen to be maleficarum and emboldened templars who become overzealous in their duties.

Which side winning will cause the least damage? That is the grey choice IMO. Most want to instinctively protect the mages who have done nothing wrong (I know I did), but you know that freeing that many mages is going to mean releasing some bad apples into the world.

One of the things I really disliked about the end myself, incidentally. While my first PC sided with the mages, it was purely because she didn't agree with Meredith's plan to slaughter them. She did not support (total) mage freedom, and the game took it to mean you did if you sided with them. According to the PC's autodialogue to Anders, anyway. *rolleyes*

#49
Dagr88

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Vinkhor wrote...

Dagr88 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

But in DA, you must choose faction based on your own morality, and your morality is real world morality.


So... Is that a good or a bad thing? Are you afraid that some people in the real world might get morally sensitive and will start to light houses on fire whenever they see injustice? Or the ending is great because there is no red guy with horns who's favorite phrase is "I LUV TO EAT BABIES! JUM JUM" and you have to actually judge situation based on what you have seen through whole game and your real life moral standards.

There is no right choice but there are many excuses:
- My girl/boyfriend is a mage/anti-mage so I will support her/his side
- Meredith couldn't be my love interest so she and her order must die
- I think this choice will produce less corpses
- If I was born a mage I would want to be treated fairly
- I must protect the oppressed!
- Mages can't be trusted!
- And so on...

Yes, I know that it's just a game! So I'll give 2 answers for the question "why I choose templars every time":
- I think it will create less corpses
(moral choice... maybe it means that I'm less emotional and more calculating type of person)
- I love to arrange political marriages, Grey Warden + Anora, Hawke + Sebastian (game choice... I usually never play female characters if I'm able to choose, and yes I do think that in DA3 1 of the plot lines will be about unification of Free Marches)


Actually mantaining a constant conflict between templars-mages will generate far more corpses in the end, than a few possessed mages will ever do it normally. (Just look at what Anders did. It`s obviously his fault, but if there wasn`t this conflict he wouldn`t have any reasons in the world to blow up the chantry. So, if this conflict can turn a peaceful healer into a terorrist, it can only lead to more corpeses in the end). 


About "few possessed mages":
1. Your peaceful healer who turned into a terrorist WAS a possessed mage. Before he merged with Justice (later Vengeance) he was a goofy Mage who wanted just to be free and didn't care about the "plight of mages". (DA:Awakening)
2. A bloodmage or demon can mind control other people (nobles, kings, guild masters). It's not about how often it happens but the fact that it CAN happen and usually it's impossible to trace back the puppet master. (DA: Legends)

The source of the conflict are not mages, but demons. If it was JUST mages then the templars would be enough to counterbalance their power and maybe at some point find solution that would not require constant drastic measures.

If I have to give example from ME3:
People (different races) vs Reapers.
Reapers can indoctrinate. You can't reason with indoctrinated person. It's ether kill them, make them brain dead or isolate them. There were some that were able to "resist" total indoctrination, but if I remember correctly they asked to kill them or they just killed themselves.
The main difference is that in ME anyone can be indoctrinated, but in DA targeted audience (99% of the time) are mages + mages posses high damage inborn abilities which can be further improved by a demon (who are most of the time are morally bankrupt .

Modifié par Dagr88, 01 septembre 2012 - 12:51 .


#50
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When I think about the final fight in the Gallows, picked both sides in several playthroughs, there were things going on that could have been more/better explained.

When I choose the templar side and fought the mages I entered a room with templars and mages that were worshipping a desire demon...still would like to know what that was all about. Feels like parts of the story were just left out and the lack of wrapping up things annoyed me..