We don't imprison lepers and the mentally ill anymore. In what society is it right to imprison someone for what they MIGHT do ? Or to confine infected people for decades ?
My Main Problem with the Ending
Débuté par
Craverguy
, août 28 2012 03:30
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#77
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 01:27
K_Tabris
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The comparison of the Mass Effect trilogy ending with the DA2 ending confuses me. There were significant issues with DA2, the ending in particular, but it was an enjoyable game overall. The choices Hawke made seem to matter, and the ending provides plenty of leeway to imagine further adventuring in the players' minds for their versions of Hawke et. al.
As for the ending throwing all of the grey morality out of the window, I don't see how that is portrayed. Rather, it shows how messy and complex the conflict between mages and the rest of the world is.
As for the ending throwing all of the grey morality out of the window, I don't see how that is portrayed. Rather, it shows how messy and complex the conflict between mages and the rest of the world is.
#78
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 01:58
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DA2 is not complex at all, you only need to choose between two factions
DA:O is more complex, you have too choose many factions that determine who will follow you in the final battle. You also have to choose who will lead the country. Everything you do effect the ending.
DA:O is more complex, you have too choose many factions that determine who will follow you in the final battle. You also have to choose who will lead the country. Everything you do effect the ending.
#79
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 02:41
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Nizaris1 wrote...
DA2 is not complex at all, you only need to choose between two factions
DA:O is more complex, you have too choose many factions that determine who will follow you in the final battle. You also have to choose who will lead the country. Everything you do effect the ending.
Is not the number of factions that makes something complex or not.
The two factions on DA2 are not manicheist, ther is no 100% good faction or 100% evil faction. Unlike DAO where darkspawn are inherently evil, Loghain is inherently evil. Demons and Uldred are evil. Dwarves are good, Dalish elves are good...
Chosing to get Dwarves involved is a no brainer. Choosing to side with templars or mages is not that simple. A mage just killed a lot of innocent people. The Templar commander is a madwoman. There are not clear cut decisions.
#80
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 02:50
Xilizhra
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Loghain? Inherently evil? Hah. Loghain is thousands of times less evil than Meredith, and at least hundreds less than the Templar Order itself.The two factions on DA2 are not manicheist, ther is no 100% good faction or 100% evil faction. Unlike DAO where darkspawn are inherently evil, Loghain is inherently evil. Demons and Uldred are evil. Dwarves are good, Dalish elves are good...
To me, it's exactly that simple. Anders wasn't even part of the Circle, and the Order is a bastion of evil by nature. It must fall, and we should start here.Chosing to get Dwarves involved is a no brainer. Choosing to side with templars or mages is not that simple. A mage just killed a lot of innocent people. The Templar commander is a madwoman. There are not clear cut decisions.
#81
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 02:54
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Xilizhra wrote...
To me, it's exactly that simple. Anders wasn't even part of the Circle, and the Order is a bastion of evil by nature. It must fall, and we should start here.
I do agree however that Loghain is not evil by nature. Arl Eamon states clearly that he was a hero.
#82
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 02:56
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I disagree
- some consider Loghain a hero
- demons and Uldred are evil but you don't choose them, you choose Templar or Mages
- dwarves are not good, their political and caste system is ****, harrowmont and Bhelen are both ****
- Dalish Elves not actually good, the Dalish are racist, they will kill you on sight if they want to if you are human. maybe the Dalish themselves are innocent in werewolves matter, it was Zathrian who don't care a damn about making human suffer a curse for millenia. while the wewrewolves are werewolves, they attack the Dalish after failed in peaceful solution with Zathrian
In DA:O, you have many choices that effect the ending
In DA2...choose Mage or Templar, you think Mage is good, choose mage, if you think Templar is good, choose Templar...that is all.
ninjaed
- some consider Loghain a hero
- demons and Uldred are evil but you don't choose them, you choose Templar or Mages
- dwarves are not good, their political and caste system is ****, harrowmont and Bhelen are both ****
- Dalish Elves not actually good, the Dalish are racist, they will kill you on sight if they want to if you are human. maybe the Dalish themselves are innocent in werewolves matter, it was Zathrian who don't care a damn about making human suffer a curse for millenia. while the wewrewolves are werewolves, they attack the Dalish after failed in peaceful solution with Zathrian
In DA:O, you have many choices that effect the ending
In DA2...choose Mage or Templar, you think Mage is good, choose mage, if you think Templar is good, choose Templar...that is all.
ninjaed
Modifié par Nizaris1, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:57 .
#83
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 02:59
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If you believe my rhetoric goes too far, just consider that the Circle didn't even commit said crime and the templars want to murder them all anyway. The Order must be stopped.EntropicAngel wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
To me, it's exactly that simple. Anders wasn't even part of the Circle, and the Order is a bastion of evil by nature. It must fall, and we should start here.
I do agree however that Loghain is not evil by nature. Arl Eamon states clearly that he was a hero.
#84
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:03
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Xilizhra wrote...
If you believe my rhetoric goes too far, just consider that the Circle didn't even commit said crime and the templars want to murder them all anyway. The Order must be stopped.
Meredith wants to murder them. Insane Meredith, I might add. Not the same as all templars.
#85
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:05
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It doesn't really matter. The Order's evil isn't less just because one of them is especially nutty, and they do go along with the Annulment while understanding all of its implications.EntropicAngel wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
If you believe my rhetoric goes too far, just consider that the Circle didn't even commit said crime and the templars want to murder them all anyway. The Order must be stopped.
Meredith wants to murder them. Insane Meredith, I might add. Not the same as all templars.
#86
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:13
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Xilizhra wrote...
It doesn't really matter. The Order's evil isn't less just because one of them is especially nutty, and they do go along with the Annulment while understanding all of its implications.
That's like saying the Catholic Church is evil because there happen to be an disturbing amount of pedophiles as priests. You can't judge it like that, it's person by person. Now, if the ideals of an organization are evil, that's another story. But the ideals of the Order--to protect mages from others, to protect mages from themselves, and to protest others from mages--are not evil in the slightest, but rather fairly good. The implementation by individuals is what's evil or no.
And as for the second, there are several factors--Templars that disagree that we never see, Templars being followers rather than leaders and thus following, Templars being strung out on Lyrium and thus doing naught but swinging their swords in the direction they're pointed.
Edit: In retrospect, that was a huge huge mistake on my part.
Modifié par EntropicAngel, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:21 .
#87
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:18
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Your analogy would only make sense if I said that everyone in the Chantry was evil. The templars are purely an army/prison guard force... and I honestly don't think the similarity of that role with the SS is coincidence. Also, I'll say that everyone involved in covering up/shuffling around the molesters is also evil, or at least has done evil.That's like saying the Catholic Church is evil because there happen to be an disturbing amount of pedophiles as priests. You can't judge it like that, it's person by person. Now, if the ideals of an organization are evil, that's another story. But the ideals of the Order--to protect mages from others, to protect mages from themselves, and to protest others from mages--are not evil in the slightest, but rather fairly good. The implementation by individuals is what's evil or no.
As for ideals... judging an organization by the ideals it claims to have is ridiculous. Every organization claims to have high ideals. You'd have to say the same thing about Tevinter's magisters because of their religious claim to serve the greater good. All that matters is the actions of the individuals who compose the Order, and those are very frequently (I daresay usually) evil.
Do they back up their disagreement by desertion? Keran did. I respect him. As did Thrask and the rest of his team. Cullen and his people did not.And as for the second, there are several factors--Templars that disagree that we never see, Templars being followers rather than leaders and thus following, Templars being strung out on Lyrium and thus doing naught but swinging their swords in the direction they're pointed.
#88
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:24
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Xilizhra wrote...
Your analogy would only make sense if I said that everyone in the Chantry was evil. The templars are purely an army/prison guard force... and I honestly don't think the similarity of that role with the SS is coincidence. Also, I'll say that everyone involved in covering up/shuffling around the molesters is also evil, or at least has done evil.
As for ideals... judging an organization by the ideals it claims to have is ridiculous. Every organization claims to have high ideals. You'd have to say the same thing about Tevinter's magisters because of their religious claim to serve the greater good. All that matters is the actions of the individuals who compose the Order, and those are very frequently (I daresay usually) evil.
Fair points. I would disagree on the actions of the individuals, though. I haven't found them to typically be evil.
Do they back up their disagreement by desertion? Keran did. I respect him. As did Thrask and the rest of his team. Cullen and his people did not.
They may very well. We'll never know since we didn't see them.
Regardless, all are reasons for non-evil Templars. Weak moral fiber doesn't mean evil. It just means no character.
#89
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:28
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Weak moral fiber doesn't mean evil by default, but given how easily it can lead one into doing evil... well, my mission isn't to just kill all templars. I'll kill as many as I have to, but will accept surrenders as well.
#90
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:31
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Xilizhra wrote...
Weak moral fiber doesn't mean evil by default, but given how easily it can lead one into doing evil... well, my mission isn't to just kill all templars. I'll kill as many as I have to, but will accept surrenders as well.
You're funny. You're almost as bad as the other side!
#91
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:33
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What can I do? This is war.EntropicAngel wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Weak moral fiber doesn't mean evil by default, but given how easily it can lead one into doing evil... well, my mission isn't to just kill all templars. I'll kill as many as I have to, but will accept surrenders as well.
You're funny. You're almost as bad as the other side!
#92
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 03:50
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I guess...how 'bout let's be nonpartisan and judge each person based on their actions alone. No? *sigh*
#93
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:10
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I'm only proposing going after those still in the Order and conducting the war.EntropicAngel wrote...
I guess...how 'bout let's be nonpartisan and judge each person based on their actions alone. No? *sigh*
#94
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:30
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But the Order has a valid purpose.
What am I saying. I know you'll never agree to that.
What am I saying. I know you'll never agree to that.
#95
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:33
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It's tainted and can't be fixed. It's time to start over with a different organization, one without ties to the Chantry.EntropicAngel wrote...
But the Order has a valid purpose.
What am I saying. I know you'll never agree to that.
#96
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:40
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Xilizhra wrote...
It's tainted and can't be fixed. It's time to start over with a different organization, one without ties to the Chantry.
I disagree with the first part, but I can agree that not being tied to the Chantry might help--even this shouldn't be a problem.
#97
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:42
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The primary purpose of this group needs to be protecting mages from demons; handling mage lawbreakers is secondary, and arbitrarily imprisoning them all by divine right shouldn't be done at all.
#98
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Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 04:53
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I'd argue that it should be protecting people from rogue mages first of all, because this one poses the greatest risk: there are far, far more general people than there are mages, thus more possible victims.
#99
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 05:01
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In my view, the templars as an order will kill or tranquilize every mage they find for the high crime of existing. If I side with the mages (which is likely since I am against a group of people being punished for crimes they aren't guilty of committing,) then for every templar that attacks me, I'll be just as ruthless towards them.
I'll destroy all lyrium smugglers that I find to keep templars in lyrium withdrawal. I'll keep the lyrium for the mage rituals to try and prevent blood magic. I'll force the templars into situations where tehy don't know who the mages are in an area, I'll help keep the mages safe from the templars, and allow the common man to see the evil the templars are willing to go through for their fix on lyrium and their religious devotion.
They had death squads roaming around killing non-mages in Kirkwall if you side with Orsino in the Act 3 debate, so doubtless there will be more. It won't take long for people to see that the templars don't care about protecting them from mages, they'll kill them just as fast. Even for things as simple as allowing a relative to have some food and a couch to sleep on at night.
I'll destroy all lyrium smugglers that I find to keep templars in lyrium withdrawal. I'll keep the lyrium for the mage rituals to try and prevent blood magic. I'll force the templars into situations where tehy don't know who the mages are in an area, I'll help keep the mages safe from the templars, and allow the common man to see the evil the templars are willing to go through for their fix on lyrium and their religious devotion.
They had death squads roaming around killing non-mages in Kirkwall if you side with Orsino in the Act 3 debate, so doubtless there will be more. It won't take long for people to see that the templars don't care about protecting them from mages, they'll kill them just as fast. Even for things as simple as allowing a relative to have some food and a couch to sleep on at night.
#100
Posté 04 septembre 2012 - 06:22
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Fiacre wrote...
Mages don't need protection from themselves. I do agree that they need to be taught how to use their powers and keep control, yes, we've seen what happens when a mages isn't properly taught with Connor, for example.
I'm all for Circles that are a place where mages can study. But that's not what the current Circles are. It is *not* for anyone's protection when Templars beat, rape and otherwise abuse their charges. It is certainly not for the mages' protection when Templars slaughter them for no reason. It is not their protection when Templars turn mages tranquil to get new sex slaves.
The current Circles system is broken and there is simply no point in supporting it. It can only lead to more violence, because as long as Templars have such absolute control over their charges and as long as mages are as badly oppressed and imprisoned as they are, there will *always* be rebellions, and rightly so. What is needed is a safe -- and actually safe, not the mockery of the current Circles -- place for mages to come into their powers and learn how to use and control them. Once they've done that, everything is fine. The Templars can still go after them if they do get possessed or turn to blood magic. And I'd wager there'd be a lot less of that in a system that didn't practically force mages to do so in an attempt to protect themselves from the Templars' abuse.
And somehow I doubt that Olivia got the education she needed to keep control of herself. And she'd likely never even gotten in that situation if it weren't for the system.
You do realize that all of your examples come from kirkwall - which is, so far, the worst circle excepting tevinter? I would wager that most circles don't do that sort of thing, and, if a templar does, he is punished. The ferelden circle wasn't anywhere near as bad. The only real "injustice" was the threat of turning a mage tranquil because he was suspected of blood magic - which he was actually using.
