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[Fiacre]

Renmiri1 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I think they're simply ignorant, Wood. Not "intellectually dishonest," per se.

Why the Ad Hominem ?

I didn't want to go into a long treaty of all the redeeming qualities of Loghain when my point was not related to Loghain's history.

My point is that the ending decision in DA2 has only 2 factions but is a lot more nuanced than deciding between Alistair and Loghain or deciding between Dwarven kings. And deciding to kill darkspawn is not morally ambiguous. Deciding to kill templars or mages is.

Save the insults to people who insult you. This isn't a high school playground where the bully gets to win. 

How is it more nuanced? The choice at the end of Da2, as presented in the game, is pretty much "Do you help a bunch of people about to be slaughtered for something they didn't do? Or do you help a madwoman slaughter a bunch of people for something they didn't even do?" Meredith's madness and the way the conflict is triggered do a poor job of providing any argument for siding with the Templars, even if you're pro Templar/pro Circle system.

One can make their own arguments, but considering how the whole thing ends (which is somewhat foreseeable), I'd argue that the dwarfen and Fereldan monarch choices, or sparing Loghain or not, are far more nuanced (especially since at least with the  dwarves the possible absolutely disastrous consequences -- Harrowmont with Golems -- are a lot less obvious, while Bhelen being true to his word and becoming a reformer not something guaranarteed when you make the decision).

[Renmiri1]

The decision mirrors the entire mage x Chantry dilemma. Why are mages confined to the Circle ? For something they didn't do.

Is it wrong to kill all mages in the Kirkwall Circle ? You bet, but you will find people here on BSN that sided with Templars for several reasons.

For starters, you don't side with Meredith, you side with the templar order. The minute Meredith's insanity and disregard for templar law is exposed she gets deposed by Cullen. Is easy to excuse mages for some of them going insane (Orsino) so we should be willing to do the same for Templars, at least we should if we are being intellectually honest.

Another reason to side with templars people mention is because they think that a lot of citizens from Kirkwall will be killed if the conflict drags on and they think siding with templars ends the conflict faster and with fewer dead. I disagree on the casualties, but I can see the good intentions behind the argument to side with templars.

It is not clear cut. Mages are dangerous. Not all templars are rapists and sadistic creeps or batsh*t insane. I side with mages most of my playthroughs but my Hawke always struggles a bit with it. I'm not very fond of the black and white view of the world.

[Xilizhra]

It is not clear cut. Mages are dangerous. Not all templars are rapists and sadistic creeps or batsh*t insane. I side with mages most of my playthroughs but my Hawke always struggles a bit with it. I'm not very fond of the black and white view of the world.

The Templar Order supports and protects them, and its mission is inherently unjust besides. I have no struggle and am content with that.

[Fiacre]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The decision mirrors the entire mage x Chantry dilemma. Why are mages confined to the Circle ? For something they didn't do.

Is it wrong to kill all mages in the Kirkwall Circle ? You bet, but you will find people here on BSN that sided with Templars for several reasons.

For starters, you don't side with Meredith, you side with the templar order. The minute Meredith's insanity and disregard for templar law is exposed she gets deposed by Cullen. Is easy to excuse mages for some of them going insane (Orsino) so we should be willing to do the same for Templars, at least we should if we are being intellectually honest.

Another reason to side with templars people mention is because they think that a lot of citizens from Kirkwall will be killed if the conflict drags on and they think siding with templars ends the conflict faster and with fewer dead. I disagree on the casualties, but I can see the good intentions behind the argument to side with templars.

It is not clear cut. Mages are dangerous. Not all templars are rapists and sadistic creeps or batsh*t insane. I side with mages most of my playthroughs but my Hawke always struggles a bit with it. I'm not very fond of the black and white view of the world.

Meredith shows herself to be insane and going against Chantry law the very moment she decides to invoke the Rite of Annullment... When none of the mages had done *anything* at all. Anders was the culprit, but instead of punishing him, she just goes "Rawr, kill the Circle mages! What? They didn't have anything to do with this? I don't care, let's kills them anyway!" And suporting Meredith's decision? Is supporting exactly that, not supporting what the templar order is supposed to do, because what she's doing is *not* what the order is usupposed to do. And you know that the minute she invokes the Rite, not after she pulls out the idol sword.

The arguments for the Circle system are at least somewhat sensible. Meredith's actions and her arguments are not, neither in Lowtrown when she's making you decide nor in the Gallows when she draws her idol sword and goes all one winged angel on you.

And I've heard the minimize casualties argument. That's why I said you can make your own arguments for siding with the Templars at the end, but I don't agree and I don't think it's a particular good one since there is no evidence that supports it and you helping to push mages into the corner isn't going to make those abominations turning up any more unlikely. Templars are just a bunch of dudes in a metal suit. Abominations are more dangerous. Helping the mages is more likely to keep  the number of those down (unless you believe you can put down every mage about to turn before they do, which sounds somewhat conceited).

And I am not fond of black and white either, which is why I wish the conflict had been more grey. Meredith's insanity and her reason for invking the Rite take a lot oof the grey away. I like Dragon Age 2 a lot, I really do, but Act 3 and especially the endgame is certainly not the best written part of it.

[TEWR]

But whatever Loghain used to be, he's not that man anymore. He is not an asset to Ferelden and he is not an asset to the Wardens.

Oh but that's where you're wrong. He is indeed an asset to Ferelden and to the Wardens. He's a brilliant tactical general who was winning the civil war easily -- that he unfortunately instigated due to a lackluster speech to the Landsmeet, due to his less then stellar diplomatic skills -- and is a great morale booster for Ferelden's troops.

A lot of people were thankful that Loghain was spared. He is still the very embodiment of Fereldan ideals and continues to inspire people after he's given a chance at redemption.

Alistair himself notes that morale is a powerful thing.

Who do you want at your side when you're fighting a tainted dragon? An old, mentally infirm man with poor judgement and a history of betrayal, who just lost a duel to a regular person? Or a young, able-bodied warrior who has proven to be consistently trustworthy for the better part of a year? 

The Warden is hardly a "regular person". The Warden can be either an Aeducan prince that makes mincemeat out of some of Orzammar's finest, a Human Noble trained in diplomacy and combat, a Dalish warrior who survived being tainted prior to the Joining, or a Mage.

The only ones that could even be called "regular people" are the Dwarf Commoners and the City Elves. But even then, they ceased to be regular the moment they killed Abominations, Demons, Darkspawn, undead, bandits, Golems, etc.

And Loghain isn't mentally infirm. He is still very much mentally capable, as there are people older then Loghain that are still very capable. He's never been a politically savvy person -- hence his reliance on Arl Howe, a man that I find to be very lacking in political knowhow -- and he's made mistakes along the way, due no doubt to the following:

1) Exhaustion trying to keep a nation afloat, quell a civil war, plan how to stop the Blight, and whatnot

2) Howe using that exhaustion to manipulate Loghain into doing things Loghain might not have done otherwise. Remember, many ideas that Loghain performed are questioned as to whether or not they originated from Howe's mind.

3) No political knowhow, causing him to rely on Rendon Howe. I'm sure it was never out of a desire to, but because of everything Howe had done up to that point making him a military threat if he wasn't on Loghain's side. Howe was in control of Denerim, Amaranthine, and Highever. That put him in control of the greater part of the Coastlands.

None of that is due to him being mentally infirm, and all of it can easily be remedied with him being spared and not trying to do everything on his own.

Finally, Loghain is trustworthy. Cailan ruined the battle plan -- though I doubt it would've worked had nothing gone wrong anyway, which isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won at all -- and Loghain was forced to make a judgment call. The army in the field was breaking down, killed left and right. The Darkspawn were pouring out of the Wilds with no end in sight.

Add into that the lateness of the signal fire -- the reason for which Loghain did not know -- and he was left to assume that the battle was over and nothing more could be done to turn the tide.

And after he ordered his men to retreat, based upon what he knew, he believed the Wardens were working for Orlais to try and destablize Ferelden's government, weaken them, and give Orlais grounds to "assist" in the Blight and never leave -- as history has shown Orlais has done many times before.

He was wrong, certainly. But his views on the Wardens -- colored in part by events that happen in The Calling -- stem from what he knew and what he knew historically. So he wasn't unreasonable really. Wrong yes, but understandably so. He can still be trusted, especially once he admits that he has been wrong the entire time.

As an aside, I'm sure had Howe never been in control of the greater part of the Coastlands, Loghain would've relied on Anora for political insight due to her having been the brains behind Ferelden's rule the last five years. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 septembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[TEWR]

Renmiri1 wrote...

For starters, you don't side with Meredith, you side with the templar order

If you were truly siding with the Templar Order and not Meredith, you'd point out the multiple failures in Meredith's argument.

1) You don't give a mob what they want. That makes them grow bolder
2) No mob has formed yet, so to kill people that are innocent of a crime for something that hasn't happened yet is nonsense.
3) It's nighttime, people are asleep. People don't know **** about what just happened.
4) The culprit has voluntarily submitted to justice for his act.
5) The Veil in Kirkwall is already thin. More death on a massive scale will only thin it out even more.
6) Meredith has illegally taken control of the Viscount's seat, has tried to pressure all of Kirkwall into "supporting" her, and has even sent out death squads to kill anyone that tries to feed and shelter starved and whipped mages.

So... I find it hard to say you're siding with the Templars and not Meredith. Everything she has done in the game goes against the very ideals of the Templar Order.

And that her Templars go through with the Annulment means they were supporting her.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Another reason to side with templars people mention is because they think that a lot of citizens from Kirkwall will be killed if the conflict drags on and they think siding with templars ends the conflict faster and with fewer dead. I disagree on the casualties, but I can see the good intentions behind the argument to side with templars.

The conflict was isolated in the Gallows. Aside from a few minor skirmishes down in Dockside and Lowtown -- and remember, it's nighttime and people are sleeping right now -- the entire battle was taking place in the Circle itself.

And you know, Aveline and the City Guard exist to protect the people. And they do that. Donnic manages to keep the citizens safe and refuses to help the Knight-Commander if you side with the Mages.

These are the people who have in the past given the Templars a run for their sovereigns when the Templars overstepped their bounds.

So I also can't see this argument being very sound.

Renmiri1 wrote...

It is not clear cut. Mages are dangerous. Not all templars are rapists and sadistic creeps or batsh*t insane. I side with mages most of my playthroughs but my Hawke always struggles a bit with it. I'm not very fond of the black and white view of the world

The conflict itself isn't black and white, but DAII's portrayal of it certainly was.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh but that's where you're wrong. He is indeed an asset to Ferelden and to the Wardens. He's a brilliant tactical general who was winning the civil war easily -- that he unfortunately instigated due to a lackluster speech to the Landsmeet, due to his less then stellar diplomatic skills -- and is a great morale booster for Ferelden's troops.

A lot of people were thankful that Loghain was spared. He is still the very embodiment of Fereldan ideals and continues to inspire people after he's given a chance at redemption.

Alistair himself notes that morale is a powerful thing.

No he's not. The fact that he's winning a war he started means nothing. Tactics are more than choosing where, when and how to fight.

When you have to sell people into slavery to fund your war, you're not really "winning" anyway. If Loghain really was "brilliant" he would see that he lacked majority support and would've stepped down long before the Landsmeet even took place.

His actions left the country weaker. He's a bad leader in every sense.

The Warden is hardly a "regular person". The Warden can be either an Aeducan prince that makes mincemeat out of some of Orzammar's finest, a Human Noble trained in diplomacy and combat, a Dalish warrior who survived being tainted prior to the Joining, or a Mage.

The only ones that could even be called "regular people" are the Dwarf Commoners and the City Elves. But even then, they ceased to be regular the moment they killed Abominations, Demons, Darkspawn, undead, bandits, Golems, etc.

The mage is the only one who possesses any special powers. Loghain is also trained in combat, the only advantage most of the wardens have over him is youth and strength. And also, you can elect to have a party member fight Loghain instead, and he will still lose.

And Loghain isn't mentally infirm. He is still very much mentally capable,

Except for the paranoid delusions of Orlesians hiding under his bed.

as there are people older then Loghain that are still very capable. He's never been a politically savvy person -- hence his reliance on Arl Howe, a man that I find to be very lacking in political knowhow -- and he's made mistakes along the way, due no doubt to the following:

1) Exhaustion trying to keep a nation afloat, quell a civil war, plan how to stop the Blight, and whatnot

2) Howe using that exhaustion to manipulate Loghain into doing things Loghain might not have done otherwise. Remember, many ideas that Loghain performed are questioned as to whether or not they originated from Howe's mind.

3) No political knowhow, causing him to rely on Rendon Howe. I'm sure it was never out of a desire to, but because of everything Howe had done up to that point making him a military threat if he wasn't on Loghain's side. Howe was in control of Denerim, Amaranthine, and Highever. That put him in control of the greater part of the Coastlands.

The fact that Loghain is an idiot and a poor judge of character doesn't exactly endear him to me.

None of that is due to him being mentally infirm, and all of it can easily be remedied with him being spared and not trying to do everything on his own.

None of it is "easily remedied". Hundreds of people have died as a result of Loghain's actions.

Finally, Loghain is trustworthy. Cailan ruined the battle plan -- though I doubt it would've worked had nothing gone wrong anyway, which isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won at all -- and Loghain was forced to make a judgment call. The army in the field was breaking down, killed left and right. The Darkspawn were pouring out of the Wilds with no end in sight.

Add into that the lateness of the signal fire -- the reason for which Loghain did not know -- and he was left to assume that the battle was over and nothing more could be done to turn the tide.

And after he ordered his men to retreat, based upon what he knew, he believed the Wardens were working for Orlais to try and destablize Ferelden's government, weaken them, and give Orlais grounds to "assist" in the Blight and never leave -- as history has shown Orlais has done many times before.

He was wrong, certainly. But his views on the Wardens -- colored in part by events that happen in The Calling -- stem from what he knew and what he knew historically. So he wasn't unreasonable really. Wrong yes, but understandably so. He can still be trusted, especially once he admits that he has been wrong the entire time.

I'm not talking about Ostagar, I was never talking about Ostagar. I'm talking about poisoning Eamon, supporting Uldred's violent rebellion, and selling the Denerim elves into slavery. These are things that cannot be disputed. Loghain betrayed his country and its people.

The fact that he acknowledges he was wrong is meaningless. It's the very, very least he could do after all the harm he has caused, and it's not enough. His actions are unforgivable, there is no redemption. That the people of Ferelden would continue to regard him has a hero speaks nothing of his actual merit, and only shows that they're even dumber than he is.

As an aside, I'm sure had Howe never been in control of the greater part of the Coastlands, Loghain would've relied on Anora for political insight due to her having been the brains behind Ferelden's rule the last five years.

Or so she says. From what little we see Anora actually do, I doubt she would've been much help at all.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
BTW I keep emphasizing "Stopping the Blight" is the ending because I don't mean simply the final boss fight (in which the archdemon is killed) is the ending. When i say 'the archdemon is killed' is just a euphamism for "Stopping the Blight" I just get tired of repeating the same phrase over and over, since killing the Archdemon ends the Blight.

I am not confusing a boss fight with 'the ending'.

Stopping the Blight is not the ending, it is because the Warden MUST stop the Blight. It is the core story. Killing Archdemon and stop the Blight is the core story, not the ending.

The ending is what happen to the Warden AFTER killing the Archdemon and stopping the Blight.

The story is about the Warden and everything he/she do, what happen to him/her, what happen to the people he/she interacted/inolve with, the consequenses of his/her actions in the end.

So if DA2 had ended with a bunch of slides talking about what happened to Feynriel, your companions, Ella, Alain, etc. you'd consider it on par with DA:O?  DA:O's ending fit it's scope, the fates of multiple peoples across an entire nation.  DA2's scope was much smaller, the life and times of one dude in one city.

The epilogues, which is what you're talking about if I'm not mistaken, I feel are well done and fitting to the game they're in.  I actually really like how Hawke's story comes full circle too.  He/She rose suddenly from nothing and vanished just as quickly, leaving the masses to wonder at what they had just witnessed.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lets take a look at LotR...killing Sauron, destroying the ring and stop the invasion of Orcs is not the end. The end of LotR is Arragon is made a king, Frodo return to his people, his friend get married and have children, blah blah blah blah.....Gandalf and Frodo get into a boat and disaapear...

Look at any other stories such as Kingdom of Heaven, Balian defending Jerusalem then truce with Salasin is not the ending. The ending is Balian return to France, visiting his ex-wife cemetary, get married with the ex-queen of jerusalem, living as a smith then richard the Lion heart meet him

Robin Hood movie, becomes out law is not the end, Robin living in the forest, hunting, Marion helping the children in the forest, Robin and his friends making a community.

300 movie, Leonidas dead is not the end, his friend inspire Greeks to sent more army

And many more examples of how a story end

In DA:O, the story end with "and so the blight stopped before it truly begin, but at what cost...?", this is the end of Dragon Age :Origin, we get the slide show

In DA2 what is it? Only little difference between choosing Templar or Mage

I guess most of us feel that since the storylines resolved themselves within the game there was no need to put them into the ending. The choices you made clearly affected the lives of people around you. You got to see it within the game instead of reading about it in the slides, that's all.

[The Night Haunter]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lets take a look at LotR...killing Sauron, destroying the ring and stop the invasion of Orcs is not the end. The end of LotR is Arragon is made a king, Frodo return to his people, his friend get married and have children, blah blah blah blah.....Gandalf and Frodo get into a boat and disaapear...

Look at any other stories such as Kingdom of Heaven, Balian defending Jerusalem then truce with Salasin is not the ending. The ending is Balian return to France, visiting his ex-wife cemetary, get married with the ex-queen of jerusalem, living as a smith then richard the Lion heart meet him

Robin Hood movie, becomes out law is not the end, Robin living in the forest, hunting, Marion helping the children in the forest, Robin and his friends making a community.

300 movie, Leonidas dead is not the end, his friend inspire Greeks to sent more army

And many more examples of how a story end

In DA:O, the story end with "and so the blight stopped before it truly begin, but at what cost...?", this is the end of Dragon Age :Origin, we get the slide show

In DA2 what is it? Only little difference between choosing Templar or Mage

The way i see it is DA2 was just a prologue to DA3. Since presumably most events initiated in DA2 will be part of DA3. Not the best way to make a game, since it lacks any closure, but we'll feel better after DA3 comes out. (in 2ish years)

[TEWR]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

No he's not. The fact that he's winning a war he started means nothing. Tactics are more than choosing where, when and how to fight.[/quote]

There's a difference between political tactics and military tactics. Loghain excels at the latter, and fails at the former.

That said, I find the Bannorn to be the ones who launched the first blow. Loghain certainly didn't say the best thing to them to make them unite under him, but I believe they were the aggressors and he was just a political imbecile who inflamed the situation.

[quote]
When you have to sell people into slavery to fund your war, you're not really "winning" anyway. If Loghain really was "brilliant" he would see that he lacked majority support and would've stepped down long before the Landsmeet even took place.[/quote]

It wasn't "his" war. He never wanted a war.

And I said he was a brilliant general, not a brilliant politician. However, I think it's foolish to believe that had he stepped down, he wouldn't have been tried for treason against the crown and hanged. I doubt that the Bannorn would've let him just stay alive if they believed that he killed Cailan, without the voices of Eamon or the Warden to say otherwise regarding Loghain's necessity.

But bear in mind that he's exhausted, politically stupid, and being manipulated by Howe -- who was probably manipulating Loghain to continue the war to expand his own expansionistic desires, up until the point where Howe realized that whether the Blight was real or not Ferelden was in peril.

Now, I don't defend the slavery aspect. That's something Loghain is always accountable for in my playthroughs. However, I find it much more of a punishment to have him live the rest of his life with the weight of his actions then to just kill him.

Granted, I don't tell him that. I'm speaking purely from a out-game POV.

And he does say that he'll remember the faces of every soldier that died, at Ostagar and no doubt in the war he fought.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
His actions left the country weaker. He's a bad leader in every sense.[/quote]

He's a bad leader in the sense that he shouldn't be leading the country as a head of state. He isn't a bad leader when he's fighting a war. It was through his capabilities that the Orlesians were pushed out of Ferelden and that the Fereldan Civil War was very one-sided.

That war brought with it its own downfalls that did leave the country weaker -- which may result in Orlais continuing its tradition of conquering weakened nations that fought the Blight, as they did with Nevarra and the Free Marches -- but he is a very capable military leader.

And who knows? Maybe if the Mages had more freedoms he could've petitioned the Lucrosians to churn out a crapton of valuable goods to sell for Ferelden's coffers to boom back up, instead of relying on selling Elves into slavery.

[quote]
The mage is the only one who possesses any special powers.[/quote]

The Mage isn't the only special person simply by virtue of being a Mage. That just makes him the most special person.

In the Dwarf Noble Origin, you kill Darkspawn, Deepstalkers, Giant Spiders, and make mincemeat out of Orzammar's finest. And those Darkspawn? They're being led by the Archdemon at this time, so it's not like they're mindless. They even used traps.

And as I said, all of the origins cease to be "regular people" the moment they garner a body count that includes Abominations, Demons, Undead, Darkspawn, bandits, etc.


[quote]
Loghain is also trained in combat, the only advantage most of the wardens have over him is youth and strength. And also, you can elect to have a party member fight Loghain instead, and he will still lose.[/quote]

Let's examine who can fight Loghain:

1) Alistair, a Templar who was trained to fight. Knows nothing of military tactics. He's about on par with Loghain combat skill wise, but inferior in regards to military capability. Accounting for his youth, that does make him an even person to fight Loghain.

2) Wynne, a Mage of the Circle who has a Spirit of Faith inside her. She's technically an Abomination.

3) Morrigan, an apostate trained by Flemeth.

4) Sten, a warrior of the Beresaad, the vanguard of the Antaam and the eyes of the Qunari people. The Qunari are responsible for having conquered the majority of Thedas with their badass army.

5) Oghren Kondrat, one of the most prestigious Dwarven fighters of Orzammar.

6) Zevran, a trained assassin.

7) Shale, a Golem.

8) Leliana, a bard who has also killed people.

None of these people are "regular people". You've said in the past that the companions aren't regular people, yet now in this thread you're saying Loghain can be bested by "regular people" simply because the companions -- who aren't "regular people" -- can defeat him or the Warden can, despite the fact that the Warden has long ceased to be such a type of person.

A regular person would be Murdock the village Mayor.



[quote]Except for the paranoid delusions of Orlesians hiding under his bed.[/quote]

Based on history -- not just the recent Fereldan Occupation, but Orlais' entire history -- and considering the mindsets Orlesian nobility had later on, he was right. The fact that Empress Celene is struggling to keep things in check does not speak very well of Ferelden's independence at the moment, if they don't prepare themselves.


[quote]The fact that Loghain is an idiot and a poor judge of character doesn't exactly endear him to me.[/quote]

On the contrary, he knew what Howe was. He knew he was a slimeball. But he needed that slimeball to assist him.


[quote]I'm not talking about Ostagar, I was never talking about Ostagar. I'm talking about poisoning Eamon, supporting Uldred's violent rebellion, and selling the Denerim elves into slavery. These are things that cannot be disputed. Loghain betrayed his country and its people.[/quote]

Eamon would've let his family relations to Cailan cloud his judgement over military tactics. He would've launched a civil war immediately when Loghain tried to unify the nation. And the poison was only meant to render Eamon comatose, never to kill him.

Loghain never supported Uldred's violent rebellion. He supported Uldred, promising him that if Uldred could give Loghain the aid of the Circle he'd give the Mages more rights. Uldred then propositioned the Circle and almost swayed them, until Wynne decided to open her big, fat mouth. At that moment, everyone in the Circle sided against Uldred -- save for his Plan B -- people.

Uldred then foolishly launched a violent uprising to try and secure the Circle, and it went horribly wrong.

Loghain only wanted the Circle to aid him. He never told Uldred to get the Circle to aid him by any means necessary, so saying Loghain supported a violent rebellion is a gross exaggeration of facts.

And I won't dispute the Elves being sold into slavery. As I said above, he's always accountable for that in my games. That's really the only thing I can hold him truly accountable for. Eamon being poisoned into a comatose state? Politically sound until the Blight was over.

Asking Uldred to give him the support of the Mages in return for more freedoms? Militarily sound, as the presence of the entire Circle -- Mages and Templars -- might've been able to turn the tide of Ostagar, had the Chantry not sent only seven mages (8 if you're the Mage Warden).

[quote]
The fact that he acknowledges he was wrong is meaningless. It's the very, very least he could do after all the harm he has caused, and it's not enough. His actions are unforgivable, there is no redemption. That the people of Ferelden would continue to regard him has a hero speaks nothing of his actual merit, and only shows that they're even dumber than he is.[/quote]

Loghain ceased to be a man years before DAO. As his codex states, he's more of a symbol then a man.

Essentially, the V for Vendetta quote on how a symbol is meaningless but with enough people behind it, it can change the world applies here.

Granted, that was talking more about blowing up a building -- which echoes more to Anders then Loghain -- but I think it can apply here as well. The people have long since rallied behind Loghain Mac Tir, because he became a symbol more then a man long before the events of DAO.

His name means "born of the land" IIRC, he went from a commoner to a high nobleman, and he brought the Orlesians down several pegs years ago. In that, he's the representation of hard work and independence.

That is why the people still regard him as a hero. Because of what he did and what he accomplished outweighing the crimes of what he's done now.
 


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Or so she says.[/quote]

As does Loghain, Eamon, Alistair, the Bannorn, and many other people. Loghain will flat out state that Anora studied swordplay and diplomacy as a child rather then go out and play.

[quote]
From what little we see Anora actually do, I doubt she would've been much help at all.[/quote]

From what we see her do -- taking into account how she can build a university and marry a hardened Alistair, who seeks to learn governing from her -- she is indeed politically capable.

Take for instance when we first meet her. She went to Howe with the intentions of finding out what his plans for her were. She indeed suspected what Howe's plans were -- to kill Anora and frame it on Eamon -- but needed to know for certain.

He was indeed very obvious about his intentions, and then locked her away, thinking that was that. Anora however foresaw this eventuality and brought along her secret confidant Erlina, telling her to seek out the Wardens and Eamon along with the news that Howe and -- either in her mind or in an effort to ensure the Wardens' support -- Loghain were planning to kill her.

That alone says a lot, as does her own codex entry, where it claims that it's common knowledge Anora was the real ruler behind Ferelden these last five years.

At most, you could make an argument for how it's not given enough representation in-game. But I think we see enough of it.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I feel that Anora is the only person worse for Ferelden than Loghain.

Loghain is certainly a man who has deluded himself. He's driven himself to forget that he specifically waited until the signal that told him to advance before he turned back. He convinced himself that he was necessary - that he deserved to lead instead of to hang. He tries to stand up in front of the Landsmeet and justify his deeds. And I'm always extremely happy to let him die for it. Let Alistair cut him down like a common brigand and let the name of Loghain be forever after associated with treachery and incompetence.

But Anora? Our very first interaction resulted in her betraying me when I was in the middle of actively helping her. That alone told me she could never, ever be allowed to get anywhere near the tower. The fact I couldn't duel her as well was frankly disappointing.

Personally I feel that unhardened Alistair is the best choice for king. It essentially undoes the effects of Loghain's treachery by replacing him with the exact type of king he tried to remove.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let's examine who can fight Loghain:

*snip*

They are regular in the sense that they (with the exception of magical characters) do not possess any unique abilities. It does not take a lot of skill to murder someone. Loghain has racked up quite the bodycount himself over his lifetime. Saying that Zevran or Leliana are particularly formidable because they've "killed people" makes no sense.

Maybe "regular" was the wrong word to describe them, but the point remains: Loghain can't match up in one-on-one combat with myself or any of my companions. Why the **** would I pit him against a tainted dragon? I'm trying to win the battle, aren't I?

Based on history -- not just the recent Fereldan Occupation, but Orlais' entire history -- and considering the mindsets Orlesian nobility had later on, he was right. The fact that Empress Celene is struggling to keep things in check does not speak very well of Ferelden's independence at the moment, if they don't prepare themselves.

Well, he's not right, then, is he? He's grossly oversimplifying the situation because he's a racist. Maybe you think his past trauma justifies that. I don't. Lots of countries in our own world have invaded others, formed empires and committed gross atrocities, but we don't keep harping on about it.

Even ten years after the fact, Orlais has yet to invade Ferelden or anywhere else. That some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden doesn't mean a whole lot. Some Germans think Hitler had the right idea, but we don't paint all of Germany as scum, because that would be retarded.

On the contrary, he knew what Howe was. He knew he was a slimeball. But he needed that slimeball to assist him.

"I can't make all these bad decisions by myself, I need a backstabbing leech!"

Sounds like an idiot to me.

Eamon would've let his family relations to Cailan cloud his judgement over military tactics. He would've launched a civil war immediately when Loghain tried to unify the nation. And the poison was only meant to render Eamon comatose, never to kill him.

Only comatose? Well, that changes everything! 

Eamon was poisoned while his troops were in the process of mobilising to march to Ostagar. Loghain denied himself significant manpower and reduced their chances against the darkspawn because he was too petty to allow anyone to dispute him over tactics.

Gosh, it sounds so reasonable when you put it like that.

Loghain never supported Uldred's violent rebellion. He supported Uldred, promising him that if Uldred could give Loghain the aid of the Circle he'd give the Mages more rights. Uldred then propositioned the Circle and almost swayed them, until Wynne decided to open her big, fat mouth. At that moment, everyone in the Circle sided against Uldred -- save for his Plan B -- people.

Uldred then foolishly launched a violent uprising to try and secure the Circle, and it went horribly wrong.

Loghain only wanted the Circle to aid him. He never told Uldred to get the Circle to aid him by any means necessary, so saying Loghain supported a violent rebellion is a gross exaggeration of facts.

So he's either malicious or a ******.

And I won't dispute the Elves being sold into slavery. As I said above, he's always accountable for that in my games. That's really the only thing I can hold him truly accountable for. Eamon being poisoned into a comatose state? Politically sound until the Blight was over.

Asking Uldred to give him the support of the Mages in return for more freedoms? Militarily sound, as the presence of the entire Circle -- Mages and Templars -- might've been able to turn the tide of Ostagar, had the Chantry not sent only seven mages (8 if you're the Mage Warden).

These are such bull**** justifications. I see no reason to let obvious crimes slide just because the perpetrator was running a political or military gambit. People should demand more honesty and integrity from their leaders, not less.

I don't care if every other politician or general is doing it. Everyone else bullies the ginger kid. Does that make it okay? Of course not. "Everyone else does it" is not an excuse in any other facet of life. It's not an excuse in politics.

Loghain ceased to be a man years before DAO. As his codex states, he's more of a symbol then a man.

Essentially, the V for Vendetta quote on how a symbol is meaningless but with enough people behind it, it can change the world applies here.

Granted, that was talking more about blowing up a building -- which echoes more to Anders then Loghain -- but I think it can apply here as well. The people have long since rallied behind Loghain Mac Tir, because he became a symbol more then a man long before the events of DAO.

His name means "born of the land" IIRC, he went from a commoner to a high nobleman, and he brought the Orlesians down several pegs years ago. In that, he's the representation of hard work and independence.

That is why the people still regard him as a hero. Because of what he did and what he accomplished outweighing the crimes of what he's done now.

He's a symbol for things that he does not truly represent, then.

So I was right the first time, the people of Ferelden are idiots.
 

As does Loghain, Eamon, Alistair, the Bannorn, and many other people. Loghain will flat out state that Anora studied swordplay and diplomacy as a child rather then go out and play.

"Studied", not "was good at". She claims to be the brains behind Cailan. So what? Cailan was not a noteworthy ruler. He didn't introduce any political or social or economic reforms. It's easy to be the brains behind the crown when all you do is maintain the status quo.

And we know from Return to Ostagar that Cailan had plans for Ferelden that did not include her. So there's that.

From what we see her do -- taking into account how she can build a university and marry a hardened Alistair, who seeks to learn governing from her -- she is indeed politically capable.

Oh lord. I thought this might come up.

Exactly what good is a university in Ferelden? It's a rural backwater where education is a luxury. The only people who can afford to attend are the children of noble lords. All it does is widen the gap between rich and poor by giving the former access to education that the latter can never obtain.

Further; what do the students study? Who teaches them? Chantry scholars, I suppose, who will reinforce the bigotry and ignorance that already pervades Thedas. With the possible exception of Brother Genetivi, perhaps, if his heretical notions of studying other cultures rather than slaughtering them wholesale don't lead him to be executed first.

Take for instance when we first meet her. She went to Howe with the intentions of finding out what his plans for her were. She indeed suspected what Howe's plans were -- to kill Anora and frame it on Eamon -- but needed to know for certain.

He was indeed very obvious about his intentions, and then locked her away, thinking that was that. Anora however foresaw this eventuality and brought along her secret confidant Erlina, telling her to seek out the Wardens and Eamon along with the news that Howe and -- either in her mind or in an effort to ensure the Wardens' support -- Loghain were planning to kill her.

That alone says a lot, as does her own codex entry, where it claims that it's common knowledge Anora was the real ruler behind Ferelden these last five years.

It certainly does say a lot. It says that Anora is a moron. Her plan is nonsense. She blundered blindly into a trap like a fly into a web, and her plan B was "Hope my weak and unskilled maid survives to contact people who likely don't give a **** if I live or die."

There are a dozen other options. Take a contingent of armed guards, or at least tell everyone in the palace where you're going and when to expect you back. Better yet, invite Howe to the palace on some pretext, and create a situtation where you have all the power. Send a spy. Send lots of spies. Challenge him to a riddle contest and make "Are you going to kill me?" one of the riddles.

Pretty much anything else would've been a better option. There's very little she could've done to make things worse.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Knight of Dane]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let's examine who can fight Loghain:

*snip*[/quote]
They are regular in the sense that they (with the exception of magical characters) do not possess any unique abilities. It does not take a lot of skill to murder someone. Loghain has racked up quite the bodycount himself over his lifetime. Saying that Zevran or Leliana are particularly formidable because they've "killed people" makes no sense.

Maybe "regular" was the wrong word to describe them, but the point remains: Loghain can't match up in one-on-one combat with myself or any of my companions. Why the **** would I pit him against a tainted dragon? I'm trying to win the battle, aren't I?
[/quote]
It's not like he's going to duel it, as Riordan says "we need all the help we can get" and if a scenario had played out like Riordan expected where himself, Alistair and the Warden all died trying to get the killing blow to the dragon, Loghain might have been there to succeed.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote... 
[quote]Based on history -- not just the recent Fereldan Occupation, but Orlais' entire history -- and considering the mindsets Orlesian nobility had later on, he was right. The fact that Empress Celene is struggling to keep things in check does not speak very well of Ferelden's independence at the moment, if they don't prepare themselves.
[/quote]
Well, he's not right, then, is he? He's grossly oversimplifying the situation because he's a racist. Maybe you think his past trauma justifies that. I don't. Lots of countries in our own world have invaded others, formed empires and committed gross atrocities, but we don't keep harping on about it.

Even ten years after the fact, Orlais has yet to invade Ferelden or anywhere else. That some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden doesn't mean a whole lot. Some Germans think Hitler had the right idea, but we don't paint all of Germany as scum, because that would be retarded.
[/quote]
To begin with the winning countries devided Germany into four sections overruled by them. Isn't that suspecting pretty much them all? We are over fifty years away from the war now. It's not compareable.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...  
[quote]On the contrary, he knew what Howe was. He knew he was a slimeball. But he needed that slimeball to assist him.[/quote]
"I can't make all these bad decisions by myself, I need a backstabbing leech!"

Sounds like an idiot to me.
[/quote] 
"I need all the men I can get," sounds like a general ready to put down petty grudges and prejudices.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...  
[quote]Eamon would've let his family relations to Cailan cloud his judgement over military tactics. He would've launched a civil war immediately when Loghain tried to unify the nation. And the poison was only meant to render Eamon comatose, never to kill him.[/quote]
Only comatose? Well, that changes everything! 

Eamon was poisoned while his troops were in the process of mobilising to march to Ostagar. Loghain denied himself significant manpower and reduced their chances against the darkspawn because he was too petty to allow anyone to dispute him over tactics.

Gosh, it sounds so reasonable when you put it like that.
[/quote]  
With this I agree.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...   
[quote]Loghain never supported Uldred's violent rebellion. He supported Uldred, promising him that if Uldred could give Loghain the aid of the Circle he'd give the Mages more rights. Uldred then propositioned the Circle and almost swayed them, until Wynne decided to open her big, fat mouth. At that moment, everyone in the Circle sided against Uldred -- save for his Plan B -- people.

Uldred then foolishly launched a violent uprising to try and secure the Circle, and it went horribly wrong.

Loghain only wanted the Circle to aid him. He never told Uldred to get the Circle to aid him by any means necessary, so saying Loghain supported a violent rebellion is a gross exaggeration of facts.[/quote]
So he's either malicious or a ******.
[/quote]
Why?

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...    
[quote]And I won't dispute the Elves being sold into slavery. As I said above, he's always accountable for that in my games. That's really the only thing I can hold him truly accountable for. Eamon being poisoned into a comatose state? Politically sound until the Blight was over.

Asking Uldred to give him the support of the Mages in return for more freedoms? Militarily sound, as the presence of the entire Circle -- Mages and Templars -- might've been able to turn the tide of Ostagar, had the Chantry not sent only seven mages (8 if you're the Mage Warden).[/quote]
These are such bull**** justifications. I see no reason to let obvious crimes slide just because the perpetrator was running a political or military gambit. People should demand more honesty and integrity from their leaders, not less.

I don't care if every other politician or general is doing it. Everyone else bullies the ginger kid. Does that make it okay? Of course not. "Everyone else does it" is not an excuse in any other facet of life. It's not an excuse in politics.
[/quote]  I Agree, but that might be a dream world. I don't think people who has a clean agenda are the ones that can win a war.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...   
[quote]
Loghain ceased to be a man years before DAO. As his codex states, he's more of a symbol then a man.

Essentially, the V for Vendetta quote on how a symbol is meaningless but with enough people behind it, it can change the world applies here.

Granted, that was talking more about blowing up a building -- which echoes more to Anders then Loghain -- but I think it can apply here as well. The people have long since rallied behind Loghain Mac Tir, because he became a symbol more then a man long before the events of DAO.

His name means "born of the land" IIRC, he went from a commoner to a high nobleman, and he brought the Orlesians down several pegs years ago. In that, he's the representation of hard work and independence.

That is why the people still regard him as a hero. Because of what he did and what he accomplished outweighing the crimes of what he's done now.[/quote]
He's a symbol for things that he does not truly represent, then.

So I was right the first time, the people of Ferelden are idiots.
[/quote]
They are not all-knowing at least.
Loghain ended a war that terrorized them all for many years, and many has no real knowledge of his current crimes.
 
[quote]Plaintiff wrote... 
[quote]As does Loghain, Eamon, Alistair, the Bannorn, and many other people. Loghain will flat out state that Anora studied swordplay and diplomacy as a child rather then go out and play.[/quote]
"Studied", not "was good at". She claims to be the brains behind Cailan. So what? Cailan was not a noteworthy ruler. He didn't introduce any political or social or economic reforms. It's easy to be the brains behind the crown when all you do is maintain the status quo.

And we know from Return to Ostagar that Cailan had plans for Ferelden that did not include her. So there's that.
[/quote]A kid wanting to be a legend, merely.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...  
[quote]From what we see her do -- taking into account how she can build a university and marry a hardened Alistair, who seeks to learn governing from her -- she is indeed politically capable.[/quote]
Oh lord. I thought this might come up.

Exactly what good is a university in Ferelden? It's a rural backwater where education is a luxury. The only people who can afford to attend are the children of noble lords. All it does is widen the gap between rich and poor by giving the former access to education that the latter can never obtain.

Further; what do the students study? Who teaches them? Chantry scholars, I suppose, who will reinforce the bigotry and ignorance that already pervades Thedas. With the possible exception of Brother Genetivi, perhaps, if his heretical notions of studying other cultures rather than slaughtering them wholesale don't lead him to be executed first.
[/quote] 
Too much speculation for me to give my opinion. But just because something might not work is not a reason not to try it. Besides, University doesn't have to cost anything but a raise in the taxes. Such is the way of many modern countries.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...   
[quote]Take for instance when we first meet her. She went to Howe with the intentions of finding out what his plans for her were. She indeed suspected what Howe's plans were -- to kill Anora and frame it on Eamon -- but needed to know for certain.

He was indeed very obvious about his intentions, and then locked her away, thinking that was that. Anora however foresaw this eventuality and brought along her secret confidant Erlina, telling her to seek out the Wardens and Eamon along with the news that Howe and -- either in her mind or in an effort to ensure the Wardens' support -- Loghain were planning to kill her.

That alone says a lot, as does her own codex entry, where it claims that it's common knowledge Anora was the real ruler behind Ferelden these last five years.[/quote]
It certainly does say a lot. It says that Anora is a moron. Her plan is nonsense. She blundered blindly into a trap like a fly into a web, and her plan B was "Hope my weak and unskilled maid survives to contact people who likely don't give a **** if I live or die."

There are a dozen other options. Take a contingent of armed guards, or at least tell everyone in the palace where you're going and when to expect you back. Better yet, invite Howe to the palace on some pretext, and create a situtation where you have all the power. Send a spy. Send lots of spies. Challenge him to a riddle contest and make "Are you going to kill me?" one of the riddles.

Pretty much anything else would've been a better option. There's very little she could've done to make things worse.[/quote]
[/quote]
On this last note I agree, i never saw the big picture in walking into a trap you knew was there.

[TEWR]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

They are regular in the sense that they (with the exception of magical characters) do not possess any unique abilities.[/quote]

Templar abilities are unique and happen to work on mundanes as well as Mages.

Reaver abilities are blood magic. 

Given how you have 3 warriors at this time -- all of whom can be given these specializations -- that means they're at an advantage.

And so what if they don't have any unique abilities? That just means the battle is even and the victor isn't easily seen. It could be Loghain, or it could be any of the companions who have killed dozens upon dozens of Abominations, Darkspawn, Undead, etc.

Actually, I'd say it's clear that if the companion you choose has gone up against Abominations and triumphed, they're going to be the victor. Simply because they've killed things that are more of a threat then Loghain -- despite how the gameplay of Abominations renders them as drunken brutes.

[quote]
Maybe "regular" was the wrong word to describe them, but the point remains: Loghain can't match up in one-on-one combat with myself or any of my companions. Why the **** would I pit him against a tainted dragon? I'm trying to win the battle, aren't I?[/quote]

He's not going to go mano y mano with the Archdemon, like Garahel did. He'd have an entire army backing him. What Garahel did was extraordinary, not something common. To expect him to kill an Archdemon on his own is a bit silly, when only one person in all of Thedas' history -- unless the Warden makes it two -- has ever done so.

And you know, he does prove himself useful against the Darkspawn. He kills Hurlocks, Genlocks, Ogres, Emissaries, etc.

 

[quote]Well, he's not right, then, is he? He's grossly oversimplifying the situation because he's a racist. Maybe you think his past trauma justifies that. I don't. Lots of countries in our own world have invaded others, formed empires and committed gross atrocities, but we don't keep harping on about it.[/quote]

Usually because they've shown themselves to have changed their outlook and political mindset, I would think. They aren't composed of a crapton of people that still hold those views. They still exist, but not in any major form.

Orlais hasn't. Orlais has been an expansionistic empire using the Wardens and the Blights as a pretense for "helping" -- really invading -- a country under assault by the Darkspawn and then never leaving. They're even intertwined with the Chantry so much that it's sickening, as what is beneficial for one is automatically beneficial for the other -- see the history of Kirkwall, the Grand Cleric of Ferelden supporting the Occupation, etc.

Even Empress Celene I was described as being an expansionist herself in one codex entry from DAO -- the exact one I fail to remember, though the wiki says it as well on Orlais' article -- where she wanted to live up to Emperor Drakon's dream of the Orlesian Empire spreading all over the continent.

So... yeah. If you have knowledge -- true or not -- that the friggin' Empress of Orlais wants to expand her empire, along with the entire history of the country she's ruling being rife with expansionistic tendencies, and then find out that your dimwit son-in-law was planning on marrying Celene the Expansionist Queen; then I think fearing Orlais will reconquer Ferelden is justified.

Because they haven't changed, at that point in time.


[quote]
Even ten years after the fact, Orlais has yet to invade Ferelden or anywhere else. That some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden doesn't mean a whole lot. Some Germans think Hitler had the right idea, but we don't paint all of Germany as scum, because that would be retarded.[/quote]

Grand Duke Gaspard de Chalons launched a civil war after luring Celene to Halamshiral so as to overthrow her, as many nobility have criticized how she's been ruling.

While Celene may at this point in time be earnest in her efforts to be an ally to Ferelden and not reconquer them -- blatantly or subtly -- that wasn't clear 10 years prior, when she was decribed as wanting to further her empire's reach.


[quote]"I can't make all these bad decisions by myself, I need a backstabbing leech!"

Sounds like an idiot to me.
[/quote]

What Knight of Dane said. And as I said earlier in the thread, Howe was in control at this point in time of the majority of the Coastlands, boasting a force on par with that of Loghain. If Loghain didn't have Howe on his side -- not out of wanting him there, but because he couldn't afford to make him an enemy -- then he would've either had a separate enemy along with the civil war or Howe would've thrown his lot in with the civil war.

Making things much more complicated, as it's hard to win a war on two fronts.

But sure, continue to label Loghain as an idiot for doing the sound thing considering the circumstances.


[quote]Only comatose? Well, that changes everything! 

Eamon was poisoned while his troops were in the process of mobilising to march to Ostagar.[/quote]

*buzzer noise* 

Wrong. Well, not wrong, but not right either. The timeline on just how and when Eamon was poisoned is screwy at best. It's told in two origin stories that Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time -- the Mage Origin being one of them -- and that he's the reason why the battles have gone so well so far.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The game does a poor job of consistently telling us about Eamon's illness in sufficient detail and when it happened, because Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time and Jowan says that he met the Teyrn in Denerim, where he was then given the task of poisoning Eamon. Loghain absolutely cannot be in two places at the same time.
And considering it would take less time for Duncan and the Mage Warden to arrive at Ostagar then it would for Jowan to be sent to Denerim with his Templar captors and then go all the way back to Redcliffe, I'm hesitant to believe that Jowan poisoned Eamon prior to Ostagar.
Plus, Duncan met with Eamon. I'm sure if Eamon was seriously ill, Duncan would've noticed.
Ser Donall may say Eamon was sick prior to Ostagar, but only a few people will choose to believe that sickness is the same as his poison. I personally think that Eamon was simply sick with a cold or some other type of ailment and the poison -- which happened after Ostagar -- progressed even faster due to Eamon's body being unable to properly fight it.
That is the only way it makes sense to me. And this is certainly one of the flaws with Origins, since it's a timeline issue[/quote]


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Loghain denied himself significant manpower and reduced their chances against the darkspawn because he was too petty to allow anyone to dispute him over tactics.

Gosh, it sounds so reasonable when you put it like that.[/quote]

Ostagar was unwinnable after what Cailan did during the battle. And I very much doubt Eamon would be amenable to discussion on the matter, if Cailan was killed in battle and Loghain retreated -- which was the necessary course of action.
 
While I'll admit that Loghain should've sent a squadron of men to try and rescue Cailan and maybe Duncan -- though I doubt he'd tell them to rescue Duncan, or that his men would succeed in doing so -- as that would've been the politically sound thing to do, Loghain is a horrible politician.

But had he done it, he could've brought it up to the Landsmeet, telling them that he tried to save their king in a battle that was unwinnable but failed. It certainly would've helped his case for trying to unify Ferelden under his banner.

[quote]So he's either malicious or a ******.[/quote]

I'm sorry.... what?

[quote]These are such bull**** justifications. I see no reason to let obvious crimes slide just because the perpetrator was running a political or military gambit. People should demand more honesty and integrity from their leaders, not less.[/quote]

I'm sorry, how is asking Uldred for the Circle's aid in fighting the goddamn Blight a crime when Loghain never supported or even told Uldred to launch a violent coup d'etat?

And poisoning Eamon was a necessary step towards ensuring Ferelden's safety, as what would be better: wasting time arguing over Ostagar when the Darkspawn are pressing forward, possibly causing a civil war to break out? Or avoiding that possibility altogether?

This is assuming of course that the Fereldan Civil War didn't happen at all.

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote....

I don't think people who has a clean agenda are the ones that can win a war.
[/quote]

More or less. With Loghain, he's made it a point to emphasize that what is necessary for Ferelden's safety isn't always morally acceptable.

He doesn't say as much, but it's clear to me that's what Bioware was trying to showcase.



[quote]
He's a symbol for things that he does not truly represent, then.

So I was right the first time, the people of Ferelden are idiots.[/quote]

Most of the populus are unaware of his recent crimes, aside from how he's begun to be a tyrant towards some of the Bannorn.
 

[quote] Cailan was not a noteworthy ruler.[/quote]

On that, we can agree. Cailan was a horrible King. 

[quote]
And we know from Return to Ostagar that Cailan had plans for Ferelden that did not include her. So there's that.[/quote]

And we know from DAII that Anora knew about Celene's attempts at courting Cailan.

But how well would those plans have turned out, when at the time we find them we can gleam from Orlais' past that they've used the Blights of the past as a pretense for setting up shop in weakened lands and their own Empress is described as being expansionistic like Emperor Drakon was himself?

I'm speaking purely from a "What we knew then" perspective, as opposed to what we find out 7 years later about Celene actually being trustworthy.



[quote]
Further; what do the students study? Who teaches them? Chantry scholars, I suppose, who will reinforce the bigotry and ignorance that already pervades Thedas. With the possible exception of Brother Genetivi, perhaps, if his heretical notions of studying other cultures rather than slaughtering them wholesale don't lead him to be executed first.[/quote]

If she took a page from what the University of Orlais teaches, the students would be taught matters that would be frowned upon by the Chantry.



[quote]It certainly does say a lot. It says that Anora is a moron. Her plan is nonsense. She blundered blindly into a trap like a fly into a web, and her plan B was "Hope my weak and unskilled maid survives to contact people who likely don't give a **** if I live or die."[/quote]

Erlina was, in the mind of Howe, nothing more then an Elven servant. Howe is a person who demonstrates a ferocious racist attitude towards Elves, so the notion that this Elven woman would actually have a political function is something he'd consider outlandish at best.

As such, she wasn't a threat to him. He was wrong though.

And you really think the Warden, Alistair, and Eamon wouldn't give a flying **** if the goddamn queen was seeking their support over her father's in trying to rescue her. If she dies, that creates more strife within the kingdom. If she's alive -- and because she's turning to them for assistance -- she's a valuable asset to bringing down Loghain.

[Renmiri1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And the poison was only meant to render Eamon comatose, never to kill him.

http://t1.gstatic.co...ruS9M8eWQqMwNa7

BS. 

Connor made a pact with a demon and that is the only reason Arl Eamon survived. The comma was the demon's doing. Loghain murdered Cailan and ordered Eamon murdered.

[TEWR]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Connor made a pact with a demon and that is the only reason Arl Eamon survived.

Yea, no. David Gaider has said that the poison was only meant to incapacitate Eamon and that if his condition worsened to the point that death was seriously becoming a possibility, he would be notified and send the antidote.

I mean, yes Connor made a deal with a Demon and yes it kept Eamon in a comatose state. But Eamon was already in that state before the deal with the Demon. The Demon just kept Eamon from getting any worse.

Loghain murdered Cailan and ordered Eamon murdered.

Loghain didn't murder Cailan. There is sufficient evidence in-game to show that Cailan's death was a combination of his own childlike desire for glory, his destruction of the battle plan before the battle even really began, and the Darkspawn being neverending.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2012 - 11:55 .

[Fiacre]

Why do people not bother to read at last some posts David Gaider made on that subject?

Modifié par Fiacre, 07 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Ostagar was unwinnable after what Cailan did during the battle. And I very much doubt Eamon would be amenable to discussion on the matter, if Cailan was killed in battle and Loghain retreated -- which was the necessary course of action.
 
While I'll admit that Loghain should've sent a squadron of men to try and rescue Cailan and maybe Duncan -- though I doubt he'd tell them to rescue Duncan, or that his men would succeed in doing so -- as that would've been the politically sound thing to do, Loghain is a horrible politician.

But had he done it, he could've brought it up to the Landsmeet, telling them that he tried to save their king in a battle that was unwinnable but failed. It certainly would've helped his case for trying to unify Ferelden under his banner.

I call shenanigans on this one. Loghain specifically waits until after the signal has been lit to retreat. Whichi sort of the opposite of what we all agreed to before the battle. Everyone else did their job. Loghain deliberately chose not to do his.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And poisoning Eamon was a necessary step towards ensuring Ferelden's safety, as what would be better: wasting time arguing over Ostagar when the Darkspawn are pressing forward, possibly causing a civil war to break out? Or avoiding that possibility altogether?

How about: don't launch a coup in the middle of a Darkspawn attack, whether or not you think it's a Blight.

Also: If you're really so wildly unpopular that you need to poison people just to stay on top, maybe it's time to admit you're not as essential as you think you are and take one for the team by agreeing to be punished for your crimes and letting someone else be in charge.

[TEWR]

I call shenanigans on this one. Loghain specifically waits until after the signal has been lit to retreat. Whichi sort of the opposite of what we all agreed to before the battle. Everyone else did their job. Loghain deliberately chose not to do his.

The plan was never carried through. The plan was to have people who were at a high enough vantage point on the battlefield to signal the fire when ALL of the Darkspawn were in the valley and Cailan's forces were using the walls of Ostagar to help defend them.

Cailan ruined the plan by charging out of that specific area, rendering his forces open to assault from the Darkspawn from all sides.

The plan was further ruined by only launching one volley of arrows -- as opposed to having the men stay in place forming a phalax formation with men in the back constantly launching arrows -- and rendering the Mabari warhounds as little more then fodder that took down maybe one or two enemies each.

By the time the signal fire was lit, the army was breaking down due to being assaulted from the front, left, and right -- as opposed to just the front, had Cailan not ordered an idiotic charge -- and the Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds, with no visible end in sight.

Loghain saw enough of this to understand what was happening, and it was only when the signal fire was lit -- and remember, the Darkspawn attacking the Tower made the Wardens lighting too late, but Loghain didn't know why they were late -- that he knew the battle was truly screwed.

He did his duty. The battle was a failure for a multitude of reasons, and the best course of action was to retreat.

Also: If you're really so wildly unpopular that you need to poison people just to stay on top, maybe it's time to admit you're not as essential as you think you are and take one for the team by agreeing to be punished for your crimes and letting someone else be in charge.

He didn't poison Eamon because he was unpopular. He poisoned Eamon because Eamon would've let family relations overtake the proper course of action. Even after he's saved, not once does he consider that maybe Ostagar truly was unwinnable in that situation.

And if you actually look at what I said, I said that part of my post to Plaintiff was assuming the Fereldan Civil War hadn't happened at all.

He didn't launch a coup either. As I recall Loghain had Anora's support, gradually diminishing over the course of the year as Ferelden's life is put in a state of jeopardy more and more.

A conflict of interest it may have been, that's not something that probably existed during our medeival period as something that should be considered. It probably happened, and it certainly happens in Thedas (Vanard). But as a concept of the law, I don't think Thedas recognizes it. So taking the support of the Queen of Ferelden Loghain had into account, the Bannorn was also going against the Queen I'd argue.

He wasn't launching a coup. He was trying -- badly -- to get the Bannorn to recognize the position he was given, through Anora's support but through his own order.

Granted, he began causing tensions to flare up when he not only failed to talk about Ostagar being an unwinnable scenario, but also began threatening the Bannorn. Who was the actual aggressor of the Civil War -- meaning who actually began the fighting -- is less clear, though I believe the Bannorn started fighting first.

[Urzon]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I call shenanigans on this one. Loghain specifically waits until after the signal has been lit to retreat. Whichi sort of the opposite of what we all agreed to before the battle. Everyone else did their job. Loghain deliberately chose not to do his.

Of course he waits until the signal was lit to make his decision. His job was to move to flank the darkspawn horde when the signal was lit. The problem of course being, that the darkspawn horde was larger than anyone (other than Duncan and the Grey Wardens) foresaw, and if Loghain did move to flank the horde; the horde's forces, still pouring out of the forest and mountains, would simple wrap around and surround Loghain's group and kill them all. 

So when the signal was lit, Loghain had a simple choice: Would he lead his men to certain death without a chance of victory? or Would he call a retreat to save his army's life, and he would then prepare for an actually Blight?

The retreat was the correct thing to do in that situation, because if Loghain did charge in at the signal; his forces would be just as dead as the king's, and then Ferelden would have absolutly NO ARMY to defend itself against the Blight.