182 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

Ok, lengthy post here. And since English is not my native language either (obviously) I can only hope for understanding:)

Nrieh wrote...
Well, how you put it - I almost thought you enjoy it when everyone luvs ya.  

To some degree but not to absolute. I'll explain.Love - is a strong emotion and normally stories do not show many love-lines, but those of the main hero. Since our character _is_ a main hero - naturally anything about love is about him.

Now, if I want to play just a heroic game with me as an asexual-hero-problem-solver - I have plenty to choose from. Yet, if I need a story involving companions and relations with them BW games is the only option. And yes, I am here only because of that.

Giving only one option like in ME1 or SWToR - is not enough (sorry, Kaidan did nothing for me and was romanced out of boredom only). Hence, at least couple of options have to be presented. And personal life of other companions have to be limited because those kind of plot-lines are too involving. I think DAO did it perfectly well with Oghren and Felix. Plus those -love-in-the-past for Zevran and Leliana, that added much to character yet did not distract from the main plot.

These are metagame reasons. And the game reasons: do not tell me you find it unnatural for someone to follow another person course because of sympathy ready to be transformed into love. And even if there were no sympathy or romance intentions initially, our character and companions have been together through so much, they simply have to develop some feelings.

Nrieh wrote...
Character loves not man or woman, but Hawk. Hawk is to be loved. No matter of gender, class etc. But I know that behind this solution are metagaming factors - like lack of funds, lack of writing and logical limit of party number.

Exactly. Once again - this is the reason why I think DAO is by far superior in that area. 

Nrieh wrote...
I'm yet to see what should player do to make Alistair willingly break up, unless you've metagamed all the dialogues and picked all disapprove you could... 8P

Was already answered - there are several points where you can completely turn him off and no gifts will help. Not to mention "gift fixing" - is a pure metagame thing. You do not say "it's bad written because I can use console and correct all my mistakes", right? So is gift showering - mild metagaming.

Nrieh wrote...
Anders can break up if you side with demon in fade (and it's irreversable, afaik). 

Actually, in the Fade it is not Anders but Justice. Looks like in that case he managed to convince or manipulate Anders to see, that someone that cruel as you are is for sure a mage hater
But again - the very idea of rivalry/friendship when you should not care about what you tell your companions and they still stay with you and do as you command, for my opinion is very wrong. In DAO you can loose every companion if your approval gets very low (Alistair is exception but mostly because the story is about _two_ survived wardens, not one). And in DA2 - I insist - you can dance on your companions honor and believes and they still "respect your opinion". 

Nrieh wrote...
Your character does not even save the galaxy or prevent blight. You do not fight Big Bad Evlul.

Sure. Hawk just stops the Quinary invasion and wiping out the city in Templar-mage fight. Not a big deal

Nrieh wrote...
Things happen no matter how you like them. Anders does it no matter what, Merrill does it no matter what, Isabella can run away. Same as IRL - things just happen, no matter how you like them. 

Have to disagree a bit. Things do go as they are but mostly because the game is very linear and authors spend all their time to make Mary/Marty Seu look adequate to at least some degree. And they fail in the most parts

Modifié par Amirit, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:24 .

[SerTabris]

Nrieh wrote...

[...]
And no, it's not a big deal - to have a bisexual LI in game (says hardcore femShep Kaidanite), but it is - when all of them are of that kind. It's kinda....disturbing, you know.

I do not see how it would be disturbing in the slightest. Unlikely, perhaps, but there are a great many unlikely things that happen so that the game works better, and I have no problem categorizing this as one of them.  Without this, I would at least like to see the most main-plot-relevant LIs be bisexual (i.e. the reverse of DA:O).

[Ryzaki]

I really hated DAO romances Leliana was great but Zev was utterly repulsive and he was the only m/m option. You didn't even get a m/m fling other than the HN origin or some ****s at the pearl. So *shrugs*

4 LIs being bisexual bothers me significantly less than 6 Lis period like ME2. THAT was far more disturbing. Especially when they throw themselves at Shepard the way they were doing (mostly relegated to the females but still...do not want).

[Renmiri1]

Never bothered me.

To me it was like Origins: If I chose a Dalish Elf it never bothered me that someone else's warden was a dwarf noble. If I chose a hetero romance in DA2, didn't bother me that someone else was playing male Hawke and getting it on.

The 6 LI are not overly sexualized, one way or another - except Isabella - so what they are on other gamer's PC didn't matter to me. I could easily headcannon straight Fenris, bi Anders or such, just as I easily headcannon my Warden being a female Human Noble or Dalish, while knowing other people see their Warden as a male Dwarf Prince. Who cares ?

PS: I actually prefer it thos way as opposed to the "fixed" sexuality we see on Steve and Trainor on ME3. I didn't like the way they were portrayed, seemed forced to me. And shower fully clothed ? Why ??

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:48 .

[Ryzaki]

...who knows. Same reason Liara's butt naked but Shep has underwear on for...some reason. I have no idea WTF was going on in that scene.

[coldwetn0se]

Nrieh wrote...

Only one - no IMHO

Should we put it before each sentence and in each post? Of course it's M(not-very-H)O.
And no offence taken, do not worry.

HeroSexual = HawkeSexual maybe?

Since DA2 Hero is Hawke - yeah, you may call it like that. But in DA3 there will be no Hawke(I hope), and DA3 will have another Hero, that's why I used more general term.

If I am a hero, everybody is supposed to love only me

Ooh, yeah, devs hear you. No matter on gender, age and species, no matter on your doings etc - the Hero must have an oportunity to drag into bed any party member, and preferably - all of them at once, huh?

While DA2 is still not perfect and there still was some herocentrism - it did great job. Rival - friend mances are not same, which adds some sense. And all of characters have their own buisness, no matter if they love Hawke or not (Anders, Isabella, Merill), Hawke is not a center of their universe - that's just great. But...devs thought it's a good idea to allow any player have any of them any time and possibly - within one playthrough. All of them are Herosexual (or Hawkesexual, if you wish)

I can not accept that as "they all bi". Because common sense tells me that it's very unlikely to have a group of different people of different age and gender, from different places with different stories but (surprise!) 4 of 6 are bisexual. I'm not purist, I'm ok with gay romances existance both in-game and IRL(as long as I'm not forced to watch or take part), but this...

From in-game only Fenris and Isabella can be "confirmed" as bi (Danarius has some obvious comments about Fenris and Isabella continues to flirt with my femHawke even with ongoing straight romance locked) Some may say "but Karl..." And I say - they switch Anders sexuality and background(!) basing on PC gender same way as they pick sibling to be killed by an ogre basing on PC class. He never mentions to femHawke about something more than firends with Karl.

Everything that is not in game or codex - is just a headcanon. Headcanon Anders can be bi, gay or love to make it with kittens. But that's not in game, that can't be canon. FemHawke Canon Anders talks a lot about girls in DAA, had some fun with Isabella somewhere between DAO and DA2 and is after femHawke. MHawke Canon Anders had... things with Karl (and still talks about girls in DAA and, I think, that Isabella banter is also still there).

That's what herosexuality is. And that's what I would not like to see. Making NPCs variables. The only variable in game - is a Player Chatacter. Non-Player Characters are called so for a reason, they should remain constants be your hero an elven mage girl or a qunari warrior.

And (once again) I think that DA2 characters were written well, really-really well. Writing is the only thing that saves this game for me, because it does have A LOT of big and small issues. But game design where "everyone kisses everyone Hawke" - it's just wrong. I know why devs did it - because they have limits in character number and they must please both straight and gay part of community. But I'm very hard to believe in 4 of 6 random people being bi or gay. Unless we suppose that Thedas has no sexuality "normatives" at all.

*In reference to bolded part.*

I 'twitch' a bit about your idea that in-game info regarding Fenris, means he is Bi.  Suggesting that his status is confirmed Bi because it is suggested that Danarius practiced non/con on his slave, is.....frankly ridiculous.  And trust me, I happen to have zero problem RPing a bi/gay Fenris; have done so numerous times.  I also RP stories where he is straight, in a straight relationship with one of my F!Hawkes.  But never will I suggest that a non/con event in a characters life, somehow 'proves' they are bisexual/gay/whatever.  I doubt you meant any offense with your statement (at least I hope), but it raised my hackles nonetheless.

[Renmiri1]

Whatever Danarius or Andriana did to Fenris it was obviously not consensual. Fenris tastes mattered nothing to the abusers. Shouldn't "count" as a true indication of Fenris sexuality. It was not, it was abuse.

[Ryzaki]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Whatever Danarius or Andriana did to Fenris it was obviously not consensual. Fenris tastes mattered nothing to the abusers. Shouldn't "count" as a true indication of Fenris sexuality. It was not, it was abuse.

Oh god that made me twitch.

No rape isn't an expression of the victim's sexuality. Arousal or not. Ugh.

[CuriousArtemis]

Pffft, well, that is one way to invalidate your own argument  

[Renmiri1]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...

Whatever Danarius or Andriana did to Fenris it was obviously not consensual. Fenris tastes mattered nothing to the abusers. Shouldn't "count" as a true indication of Fenris sexuality. It was not, it was abuse.[/quote]

Oh god that made me twitch.

No rape isn't an expression of the victim's sexuality. Arousal or not. Ugh.

[/quote]

I was agreeing with cold

[quote]coldwetn0se wrote...

I 'twitch' a bit about your idea that in-game info regarding Fenris, means he is Bi.  Suggesting that his status is confirmed Bi because it is suggested that Danarius practiced non/con on his slave, is.....frankly ridiculous. /quote] 

[SerTabris]

coldwetn0se wrote...

*In reference to bolded part.*

I 'twitch' a bit about your idea that in-game info regarding Fenris, means he is Bi.  Suggesting that his status is confirmed Bi because it is suggested that Danarius practiced non/con on his slave, is.....frankly ridiculous.  And trust me, I happen to have zero problem RPing a bi/gay Fenris; have done so numerous times.  I also RP stories where he is straight, in a straight relationship with one of my F!Hawkes.  But never will I suggest that a non/con event in a characters life, somehow 'proves' they are bisexual/gay/whatever.  I doubt you meant any offense with your statement (at least I hope), but it raised my hackles nonetheless.

Yeah, that sort of argument is just wrong on multiple levels.

Relatedly, I think you can demonstrate bisexuality for Fenris in one playthrough in a reasonable way: start romancing him as male Hawke, stop in Act 2, and have Isabela in your party in Act 3. I'm not really sure about the conditions for this, but I think it will work.

[CuriousArtemis]

SerTabris wrote...

Relatedly, I think you can demonstrate bisexuality for Fenris in one playthrough in a reasonable way: start romancing him as male Hawke, stop in Act 2, and have Isabela in your party in Act 3. I'm not really sure about the conditions for this, but I think it will work.

Good one!  Also, romance Merrill with FemHawke. Then wait for banter wherein she makes a comment about "enjoying the view" amidst all those semi-nude Qunari.

[Amirit]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Seriously though, I don't get what the big deal is to have bisexual LIs on the game. Can't you just headcanon a hetero LI if that bothers you ? It's not like the LI will leave you for another hero!

I tried to explain it before and will do it just one more time. Not to "get it off my chest" or anything, but in hope someone will actually read it and understand the reason behind that frustration.

Some people (in this case - me, but I am not unique in any way) do take the idea of Lore and Setting seriously. So seriously, in fact, that demands about making half of Ferelden (in a setting based on medieval England!) African black or having a royal gay wedding with Alistair, or, as we are discussing here, having _everyone_ in the Thedas bisexual make me (and those like me) really apset. I even partisipate discussions I learned to avoid long ago. 

Again and again - nobody here is against bi- or ******- sexual relationships. But in a given setting those kind of relationships did not exist _in mass_. Sure it did happen, but not for every first man in the world. Having it on such scale brakes immersion (for us!) as well as would flying or killing dragons with giant carrots.

Should they handle it in a way, like you can choose sexuality for your companions and that would affect their characters - crazy, but fine. But no, they could not do it because of money shortage. And we get pure  open bi- world (you have to actively ignore that by- factor, it's not hidden), which - again!!! - brakes immersion, brakes the game.
This is the reason. Not hatred, not racism, sexism or any other "izm". Only watering down and trashing great game.

Modifié par Amirit, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Renmiri1]

I get what you are saying but - and maybe it is just me - I didn't see anyone flaunting their "bi" orientation. Well except Isabela but her character is the oversexed bombshell. Anders was my hetero LI and he never once mentioned Karl or said anything about other men being hunky. Fenris was pretty masculine and I never witnessed any gay tendencies on him. Merril ? Pretty asexual although she flirted with Carver sometimes. Sebastian ? Pretty hetero. Bethany ? Flirted with Sebastian. Aveline ? Married a guy.

If anything the "bi" characters were made to act pretty hetero, spoiling the immersion of gay players a bit. I saw that complaint somewhere.

[Ryzaki]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Whatever Danarius or Andriana did to Fenris it was obviously not consensual. Fenris tastes mattered nothing to the abusers. Shouldn't "count" as a true indication of Fenris sexuality. It was not, it was abuse.

Oh god that made me twitch.

No rape isn't an expression of the victim's sexuality. Arousal or not. Ugh.

I was agreeing with cold

coldwetn0se wrote...

I 'twitch' a bit about your idea that in-game info regarding Fenris, means he is Bi.  Suggesting that his status is confirmed Bi because it is suggested that Danarius practiced non/con on his slave, is.....frankly ridiculous.

 

I was agreeing with you. I saw that arguement before and didn't react as logically as Cold did.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 septembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Amirit]

Renmiri1 wrote...
If anything the "bi" characters were made to act pretty hetero, spoiling the immersion of gay players a bit. I saw that complaint somewhere.

You asked why is it a problem, and said you get my explanation (why for _some_ of us it is a problem). 

Of course I can try to ignore flirting options for every companion I want to see straight or gay. I _can_ hadcanon anything. But I have to do so actively: byt ignoring flirting options with companions, forsing myself to forget that the very same lines were told to my another gender Hawk, passing by flirtings with every flirtable NPC and so on. Mechanically the game screams at your face "we don't care about your gender, Mary Sue Hawk". 

Guess it brings us back to Hawk-sexual.

[Ryzaki]

Mary Sue Hawke?

The Warden was far more of a Sue than Hawke'll ever be. (For better or worse).

And if you see it that way *shrugs* honestly I'm not inclined to go back to DAO's designated one bi LI interest anytime soon. Especially not with voiced PC's.

If varies sexualities are something BW's willing to devote resources too I'd prefer two bi companions and 4 straight/gay side characters. The bulk of said resources goinginto the companion LIs (and them being story relevant) so no one feels restricted to the side character.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 septembre 2012 - 05:34 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Calling Hawke a Mary/Gary Stu is kind of ridiculous considering s/he is the PC in an RPG.

[Ryzaki]

Considering how much Hawke fails at it baffles me that anyone would call him/her a Mary Sue anyway.

[sylvanaerie]

*Shrug* it's a video game. Having Bi companions wasn't game breaking for me (though I can see how it can be for some) since most of my friends are from the LGBT community anyway. Putting in the argument 'that many shouldn't be feasible' isn't really that big an argument with me.  My objections had more to do with the personality of each.

Fenris: Hates and is completely obsessed with Mages
Anders: Hates and is completely obsessed with Templars
Merrill: Obsessed with uncovering some lost forgotten part of elven culture.
Isebela: Pottymouthed oversexed sailor

And Isabela was the sanest of the 4 since, if romanced, you learn there is more to her than just a wildly active libido. She also turns down what'shisface, the guy who you let take her in her Act 3 quest, and the guy in the Hanged man who has the 'heart worms' dialogue (later you actually see him with a black eye),proving, despite her rep, that she does have standards and some good taste in them.

My only request for DA3, is no more batsh*t insane companions offered up as a romantic option. I don't mind angst (in measured doses--moderation would have improved the above examples). I just don't want such wildly insane choices. One of them I found completely unworkable, but then, different strokes for different folks.  People used to complain about Leliana's "eyelashes" comment, religious fervor and 'visions', but she's a paragon of mental health compared to these guys.  I found her just 'whacky' enough to be interesting, not completely over the top batsh*t.

It doesn't bother me that the companions all want to get into Hawke's pant(ie)s, since they are supposed to all be romanceable, and the romance shouldn't trigger if you don't choose the option.  What did bother me was, even after being told "no" one of the companions never just drops it, to the point of badmouthing your significant other years later.  Maybe weeks or months later I could see...but 7 years after the fact?  I didn't like it when Wynne does it in DAO (and she doesn't have a personal agenda to grind since she's not wanting to sex up the warden), and I sure as hell didn't like it when Anders did it. Varric does the same thing, only I didn't find it offensive since he's speaking as a friend only, and does it with a hellova lot more tact than Wynne or Anders.

Nor does it bother me that they have 'mutable' sexuality, if you want to see it that way.  I don't.  With regards to Hawke, their preference is determined by Hawke's gender, but that doesn't change who they are intrinsically, it only affects one aspect of their characterization.  No one I know in real life walks around with a sign saying they are gay/straight/bisexual or even pansexual.  Aside from minor banters in the game (which a player may never see depending on who they have with them), the only one openly and unabashedly bisexual is Isabela.  Knowing that you finished the last game on a Marion Hawke with Anders, shouldn't diminish your fun that playthrough on a Garrett Hawke who also romances him. I'm sorry if it does for you, but it doesn't for me, especially since I put so many mods/morphs on my game, no one playthrough matches any other when I play, and I've completed the game at least a dozen times, with many different choices, each playthrough completely fresh, without metagaming (beyond some game mechanics I manipulate for approval levels).  My rivalmance with Fenris was just as much fun on my diplomatic LadyHawke mage as it was on my sarcastic MaleHawke rogue.

Not that I think anyone at Bioware cares what I think, but that's my 2 cents worth for however it can be taken.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 septembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[Danny Boy 7]

I think what Amirite is trying to get across is that he/she prefers a consistency among the characters regardless of the PC's gender similar to how it was done in Origins. If I'm male I have these options open to me, if I'm female these options are available. Personally when a character grows a little bit more independent i.e. they believe a certain way regardless of my choices (or maybe because of my choices) than it adds a little more flavor.

I personally had no issue with it myself since besides an awkward initial conversation with Anders it was never brought up again and he seemed more interested in the Mage-Templar conflict than anything else.

I personally would love to see two options for hetero, bi and ******-sexual relations that way there is some leeway and characters maintain a consistency throughout multiple playthroughs, but if it's to hard to get an equal representation than go with everyone is bi and I'll be fine.

Since we seem to be returning to an Origins save the world/Imperial Agent spy story I doubt going shopping or partaking in the little things would be plausible, however if Bioware could incorporate points in the story where your LI is locked in then I think that would be cool.

For Example:

You discover an assassination is going to happen at a ball (Orlesian ofcourse) and must scout out the party. Your LI hears this and depending on their interest level in such things (I doubt say Fenris would want to go) decide to tag along make it a bit of date locking them in. If you don't have a romance or are able to talk them out of it you have an extra spot and you can choose your date or not take one at all or take them with you limiting your your party space for that mission.

Just an idea really...

[Crimson Moon]

This goes back to my earlier point, Bioware has NEVER treated bi/homosexual characters as equal up until Dragon Age 2. Alistair and Morrigan are the two characters you can't kill no matter what (except for Alistair near the end game) because they are integral part of the plot. I love Lelianna and can at least tolerate Zevran, but those two are expendable. They don't bring nothing to the plot. I prefer the state of bisexuality of the game unless they could write the bi/gay characters just as important as the straight ones. Steve and Traynor are a step in the right direction, but they are just filler character. They are not even squadmates and are just there. The fans need to make tons of petition for them to finally REIMPLEMENT Kaidan's bisexuality back in the game which was originally there but was removed to appease to the straight crowd. I guess it would call it majority privilege. They haven't experienced the hardship of gay or bi crowd, so they wouldn't care less. Most of the games are made for them anyway. There are so many hates toward gay characters in the forum that I have lost counts. Many of them disguise it as hating the characters instead of their sexuality or they somehow have gay friends, so they can't be discriminating those poor gays. I'm not a big fan of Steve, but the hate about him being featured in Leviathan is just ridiculous. Some even said that he was there just because he's gay, something that would never have been said should Steve were straight. Bioware has become more tolerant toward the gay/bi audience lately, so I'm hoping that it would change eventually with their subsequent games. As it stands, I like the bisexual options they have.

[Renmiri1]

Do the Bi characters in DA2 feel right to you ?

They feel pretty hetero to me and my femHawke had no "gaydar alert" about Anders, Fenris or Sebastian. They all felt pretty male. Merril felt pretty feminine, well, more like a lil sister but never got a "gay" vibe from her.

Which is fine for me, but I think to be fair to the LGBT community they should add more openly gay characters. Isabela could so have been a "sassy gay friend" to my Hawke! Or someone gay and proud of it, like Steve.

I would have no problem with it. Would be fun to have this kind of openness in a game played by so many people. Maybe it would help bring about needed respect for gays IRL.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[sylvanaerie]

I totally got a gay (or bi vibe) off Anders as far back as Awakenings, so that they made him bisexual in DA2 didn't come as too big a shock for me. People may argue "But he only talked about women in Awakenings", but he wouldn't be the first person to hide his sexuality from others, particularly if he felt self conscious about it. Anders has had a bit more time to adjust to his sexuality, and grow more accustomed to it, and will bring it up with a male Hawke because well, its a MALE Hawke, and he's testing the waters so to speak.

If you only romanced him on females, then he is going to have a 'straight' feel for you, and that's just as valid an interpretation as someone who only romances him on a male Hawke and feel he's gay. Both are valid interpretations of a character who's sexuality is limited by the fact that he's a video game program and not a real person. If you're a female he doesn't bring up the fact that Karl and he were anything other than friends, and you may assume anything you want.

I still prefer to believe his sexuality is more a matter of 'finding your pleasures where they may' and sort of living in the moment, because he really can't contemplate a future with the threat of the Templars and his own taint bearing down on him making any future an iffy prospect at best.

Isabela, is the only one comfortable enough in her sexuality to discuss it...unfortunately she discusses it...almost to the exclusion of anything else...to the point it's hard to take her seriously when you are supposed to. Recall Aveline's comment when Isabela comes to you about the relic being found. Paraphrased "Who's the father?".

*Edited* I had the same block about Fenris being a gay man, thinking he was too 'straight' for it, but totally changed my mind after I romanced him on a Male Hawke.  It felt completely natural, and this was my first m/m relationship in a game.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[Rawgrim]

I`d like that not all the romances are bisexuall in DA3. Simple as that. Felt it ruined some of the characters.