32 réponses à ce sujet

[Stezzo]

Hi guys!

I am planning to play again the entire saga (without mods, well, maybe removing the xp cap) with a multiclass character, and I have a few questions for you.
I would like to play a "first-line" PC, in the sense that I would like to be very good in making melee damage, also being good in absorbing damage as a tank.

After some research here and on the Internet, I selected the following options, could you please tell me what you think about them? (I know that the choice is about how one wants to play the character, but this is exactly what I'm interested in!). Consider that I am pretty sure about creating a multiclass character to be played in a 4-6 party.

1) F/M or F/illusionist:
I have read about the Fighter/gnome-illusionist, and it seems really interesting for its saving throws, and for the extra slot for Lv.9 spells (also, I like gnomes ). Since I'm not completely sure of renounce to the necromancy spells, the F/M seems very good as well (which race?). In general, which one do you prefer to play?

2) C/M:
To me it seems a great combo. But what I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is a character more "defensive" than the F/M. Also I'm not sure whether the cleric defensive spells turn out to be a little redundant (since there are also the mage's spells..). It also should have less APR and natural THACO than the F/M. What do you think?

3) Are there other interesting and strong multiclasses? I don't like to play rogues that much. Instead, how is the mage + ranger, barbarian or druid?

Now, the very last thing. I guess that the choice of the character is also highly influenced by the party that I want to play! For instance, since the multi F/M is more devouted to combat that the dual F>M, I will need another (good) spellcaster... For which of you that have played a F/M or C/M, how did you choose the party (I'd like to be neutral)? Is it possible/better to create a smaller group (4-5 people in total)?

Thank you very much fro any suggestion!

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Stezzo wrote...
1) F/M or F/illusionist:
I have read about the Fighter/gnome-illusionist, and it seems really interesting for its saving throws, and for the extra slot for Lv.9 spells (also, I like gnomes ). Since I'm not completely sure of renounce to the necromancy spells, the F/M seems very good as well (which race?). In general, which one do you prefer to play?

Fighter/Illusionist multiclasses are pretty powerful, they are just not very popular because of racism.
Necromancy is not required for melee. If you want to be a caster on the side, you may actually notice the limitation, but even then, it's nothing game-breaking.

2) C/M:
To me it seems a great combo. But what I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is a character more "defensive" than the F/M. Also I'm not sure whether the cleric defensive spells turn out to be a little redundant (since there are also the mage's spells..). It also should have less APR and natural THACO than the F/M. What do you think?

The MC requires a good knowledge of the spell system. The THAC0 can easily be better than that of a Fighter/Mage, but it's definitely a class that takes some work if you are not just looking for a character with a huge spell selection. The obvious way is to go into the offense by casting spells (and yes, this can be done while being the designated tank), but melee is possible too.
The FMC may be a bit simpler, but as a tripleclass you will not reach high levels very quickly.

3) Are there other interesting and strong multiclasses? I don't like to play rogues that much. Instead, how is the mage + ranger, barbarian or druid?

Cleric/Ranger is a pretty tough combination. The biggest disadvantage this build has is that it has no really good way to protect itself against Dispel Magic or Breach. Other than that, you are pretty much the ideal of a front-line fighter.
Barbarians or berserkers are mostly useful for their enrage, which offers lots of useful protections for very little effort. These overlap with basic cleric spells though, so IMO a dualclass to mage is much more effective.
I personally do not really like druids. They cast slowly, their defenses are penetrable. Their melee is negligible. I guess I just don't know how to play them correctly, but I have never had the ambition to learn how to do it right.

For which of you that have played a F/M or C/M, how did you choose the party (I'd like to be neutral)? Is it possible/better to create a smaller group (4-5 people in total)?

I usually take care that I have at least one non-multiclass arcane caster and if possible another source of wizardry. For divine magicks, I want to have at least 1 fulltimer or 2 parttimers in my group. So long as the thief skills are covered I don't care much about the rest.

[ncknck]

Cleric/mage is a very weak class, they only have 1 base attack per round and horrid exp requirements, maybe solo, but almost all classes work solo. Fighter/mage/cleric or in general triple classes will not be able to cast lvl9 mage spells without exp cap removed and in full party will never reach such high levels anyway. Great to solo bg1 though.


fighter/mage multiclass is great no matter what, and in general i would say thats the strongest character to play bg saga with, in bg2+ at least. So if you are looking for some fun thats definitely the character to play with.

Believe it or not, for bg1 w/o exp cap a plain longsword fighter works great, he gains an extra attack with grand mastery and can use drizzt weapons to get +2 ac bonus, which makes him the best unbuffed tank as well, f/m has can temporarily buff more protection but cant get grand mastery.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Fighter/Mage is probably the best for both tanking and DPS (strengh spell + stoneskins makes dragon battles in SOA cake)

[Stezzo]

Thank you very much for the precious information!

I've been searching a bit more about the cleric/ranger, and it's really appealing indeed!

When you speak about the party, you mean when you entirely create it by yourself or when you add NPC's? Because I do not remember many non-evil non-multiclass arcane casters in BG1 and also in BG2 (but I played long ago..). Which NPC arcane mage could I use?

[Biotic_Warlock]

About Cleric/Ranger.

In BG/BG2 they get access to all druid spells despite ranger level. (I haven't seen if this progresses to 6th and 7th tier spells though).

[Stezzo]

for ncknck:

when I first played BG1 I used a plain warrior However the C/R or the W/M seem much more interesting. The possibility of casting high level spells AND staying in the middle of the battle is really nice!

For this reason in the end I will probably create the W/M. My only concern is to find a good non-evil mage among the NPC's. In fact, my very first option was to play a Sorcerer or a Wild mage in order to be well-covered in that sense..

[ncknck]

can always dual imoen into a mage, thats how she ends in bg2 anyways

[ussnorway]

C/M vs F/M:

IMO C/M Is not more or less defenceive than F/M (you can play it that way) but the difference is that a F/M tends to reach for her mace (club... whatever) first whereas a C/M uses a spell...

 Having said that...

Both classes can enter combat and cast spells it is just that one is designed to prefer one over the other.

Muliclass party numbers:

As a rule of thumb allow two party slots for every multi in your party;

Eg1. Jaheira, Aerie and you.
Eg2. Jan, Keldorn, Imoen & you.

Other multiclass combos:

I like Druids but I also agree with Humanid_Taifun, probably better left alone until you have a couple susessful runs under your belt... If you want to try them then the F/D is simpler to learn and as luck would have it there is a marvelous F/D npc called Jaheira.

A balanced party has a tank, thief, priest and arcane spells but you can win with any party and perhaps one character can swap rolls as requirements dictate.

[Grond0]

ncknck wrote...
Cleric/mage is a very weak class, they only have 1 base attack per round and horrid exp requirements, maybe solo, but almost all classes work solo. Fighter/mage/cleric or in general triple classes will not be able to cast lvl9 mage spells without exp cap removed and in full party will never reach such high levels anyway. Great to solo bg1 though.

Mage attacks per round can be increased substantially by making use of polymorph self.  Use other buffs before changing and/or put them in sequencers / contingencies and a cleric mage becomes incredibly vicious in combat.

Believe it or not, for bg1 w/o exp cap a plain longsword fighter works great, he gains an extra attack with grand mastery and can use drizzt weapons to get +2 ac bonus, which makes him the best unbuffed tank as well, f/m has can temporarily buff more protection but cant get grand mastery.

Unless you use mods (which the OP does not plan to do) grand mastery does not give you an extra attack.

Stezzo wrote...
When you speak about the party, you mean when you entirely create it by yourself or when you add NPC's? Because I do not remember many non-evil non-multiclass arcane casters in BG1 and also in BG2 (but I played long ago..). Which NPC arcane mage could I use?

There are no arcane multi-class NPCs in BG1.  However, you can dual Imoen to mage as mentioned earlier and you might also want to take a look at a bard like Garrick. 

In BG2  you are spoiled for choice.  Aerie would give you the opportunity to see what a cleric mage can do.  Nalia is a thief dualled to a mage, though her thief skills are indifferent.  Jan Jansen is a thief/illusionist who is a very useful utility option for a party that doesn't want a solo thief.  There's also Haer'Dalis, who combines both melee and arcane abilities as a blade.

Modifié par Grond0, 29 août 2012 - 04:54 .

[Stezzo]

@ussnorway:
about the C/M, considering also what Humanoid_Taifun said: probably it is better to try something more "doable" before. The last time I played I was very young and with little knowledge of (especially magical) tactics.. Still, I can add Aerie to my group to understand better how a cleric/mage is like. In the meantime I could adopt a probably easier-to-use F/M as PC (but still good in the frontline!).

I just need take my last exam and then start the journey

Thank you all guys, It's nice to see that after more than 10 years people still love this wonderful game!

[Gate70]

Grond0 wrote...
There are no arcane multi-class NPCs in BG1.

Quayle.

[Stezzo]

By the way, how do you find the following group of "good guys"?

- me: Warrior/illusionist (tank + offensive spells)
- Keldorn: tank + divine spells
- Imoen: main spell caster + thief
- Aerie: second arcane mage + divine spells (can also be used as a tank at necessity).

Do you find it balanced enough? Adding Minsc would lower too much the overall xp accumulation?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Stezzo wrote...
- me: Warrior/illusionist (tank + offensive spells)

The point of the F/M combination is that you employ defensive spells to enhance your combat abilities. Stoneskins, Protection from Magical Weapons, Mirror Image, Improved Haste, Strength, (Improved) Invisibility...
If he casts his spells before battle, he has much more time during battle to bash the enemy's head in.

- Keldorn: tank + divine spells

Are you planning on changing his class or kit? Inquisitors are not spell casters. The 2 spells he is good for are True Seeing and Dispel Magic.

Do you find it balanced enough?

It's a good team, even if you are a little mage-heavy. That is not really a bad thing, but it does mean that 1) you may have trouble teaching every mage every spell, so you'd better prioritize. For example:
Offensive spells go first to Imoen, then to Aerie, last to your main character.
Defensive spells go first to your main character, then to Aerie, last to Imoen.
(but it's really up to you)
2) Having a lot of casters means that you may spend a huge amount of time buffing your guys up. Aerie without buffs dies almost immediately to just about everything. Imoen is a little tougher, but should not be trusterd to survive a large-scale battle without any sorts of protection. Your PC will be in the middle of it. Of course he will need protections too.
Once you can afford it, you may also consider casting Death Ward and Chaotic Commands on everybody before battle, besides Inspire Courage, Protection from Evil etcetera.

This can easily take up more time than the actual battle itself. Of course, it's worth it. But some guys don't have the patience.

[Stezzo]

About the F/M, I think I've understood the way it should be played. Of course most of the spells should go for his defence (as he has not the armour..) and for improving his melee characteristics. But maybe here and there he could also use some "attack" spells (for instance area spells like fireball and so on if there are many enemies..). This would made him more versatile than just using his magical class for buffing him. But I'm just supposing it, as I've never played him

About Keldorn, I definitely made a mistake (don't know why, but I though he had at least some basic healing spells..). This changes things a bit, because as far as I can remember I used to play with two divine casters. But this is no problem, I can just play the entire group in another manner..

The "buffing problem" does not seem a real problem to me. As you said it's just a matter of a little more patience. Suppose, however, that I wanted to play a little less mage-heavy group. I would take Aere away but then I would be in need of clerical spells.. How would be adding Anomen? He is also less fragile melee, so that I could actively use him as a tank.

In this scenario, do you think that Imoen is enough as spellcaster? I ask this because in the past I used a lot Edwin (which I know is the best mage on earth..), but it would not fit nicely in my "good guys" group..

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Stezzo wrote...
But maybe here and there he could also use some "attack" spells (for instance area spells like fireball and so on if there are many enemies..). This would made him more versatile than just using his magical class for buffing him.

Sure it's possible. I guess I misunderstood you.

How would be adding Anomen? He is also less fragile melee, so that I could actively use him as a tank.

Anomen would certainly work. He's a pretty good cleric. Does this mean you're not planning on a romance or are you changing your main character's gender to female for Anomen?

In this scenario, do you think that Imoen is enough as spellcaster? I ask this because in the past I used a lot Edwin (which I know is the best mage on earth..), but it would not fit nicely in my "good guys" group..

Between Imoen and your main character, you would have enough arcane power. But. Don't you remember chapters 2 and 3? (the easiest solution might be to use Nalia or Jan for that part of the game, since both would also be able to fill in as thieves)

Another option is to use Lvl1NPCs. You could turn Keldorn into a multiclass Fighter/Cleric or a cavalier. The latter has less spell-casting, but he could still make use of Carsomyr.

[ncknck]

Grond0 wrote...
Unless you use mods (which the OP does not plan to do) grand mastery does not give you an extra attack.

Well this does make little sense, OP does plan to use mods which he has written himself, without exp cap removal grandmastery is unattainable no matter what, but if it is, it does grant an extra attack in bg1 yes. Quayle is a multiclass cleric/mage, quite useless w/ cap, but becomes passable w/o, even with his low wisdom. In bg2 cleric/mages are rather pointless.

Using polymorph is an interesting idea where have you read it up, not sure if you read all of it though, since polymorph sets physical stats, negating all divine buffs previously cast and prohibits all further casting anyway. And with AC in the positive and multiclassed mage HP which is very little, good lack tanking anything better than a diseased gibberling.

In BG2  you are spoiled for choice.  Aerie would give you the opportunity to see what a cleric mage can do.

BG2 has very few passable mages. Edwin is pretty much the only one.



4 people doesnt quite cut it because exp is not distributed between classes, it is distributed between party members first. So with 3 ppl everyone gets 200% the exp, no problem, but with 4 people a multiclass does only get 50% more exp which is not enough to negate his 100% exp penalty. Fighter/mage doesnt need more exp though, since all he really needs are lvl5 spells, anything more is just for convenience.

Stezzo wrote...

Do you find it balanced enough? Adding Minsc would lower too much the overall xp accumulation?

This party is pretty good actually. Aerie being the weakest link, but Keldorn, Imoen and F/M are more than capable to carry this extra weight with zero problems. Adding Minsc? Sure, its an rpg after all. Or kick both for a true powerplay party.

Modifié par ncknck, 29 août 2012 - 07:48 .

[Stezzo]

You're absolutely right! One of the reasons I chosed Aerie is that (if I'm not wrong) she can romance with gnomes! (actually a "residual" reason, but still...)

About chapters 2 and 3 I remember that I need to find someone else, and I would go with Jan (thanks a lot for not having spoilered things, because I do not remember much more )

Man, it's difficoult to create a good group.. I will try to find other options. In the meantime, thank you very much for the help!

[ncknck]

Keldorn doesnt need more spells, he already gets the best of them. Permanent protection from charm and hold, prot from evil, true sight, dispel, summon deva. And in a 3ppl party he will definitely dispel everyone. Mop up with Carsomyr and GWW. Imoen will be able to cast Simulacra who can cast lvl9 spells, LOL. Fighter/mage will tank Kangaxx. And in a 3ppl party he WILL open with timestop. This party is absurdly powerful. Need to kick Aerie for that though.

edit: ah, romances. Yes, love always complicates things.. heh..

Modifié par ncknck, 29 août 2012 - 08:08 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Using polymorph is an interesting idea where have you read it up, not sure if you read all of it though, since polymorph sets physical stats, negating all divine buffs previously cast and prohibits all further casting anyway.

Did you know that Cleric/Mages can store clerical spells in contingencies and triggers?

And with AC in the positive and multiclassed mage HP which is very little, good lack tanking anything better than a diseased gibberling.

You really should read up a little on the adventures of Alesia_BH. You might be surprised.

4 people doesnt quite cut it

It is definitely a viable party. Not fitting your subjective definition of the most powerful team possible is not a requirement for successfully finishing the game.

So with 3 ppl everyone gets 200% the exp,

Actually somewhat less, since there are huge chunks of XP in the form of quest XP, which is not divided, but distributed in pre-determined portions.

no problem, but with 4 people a multiclass does only get 50% more exp which is not enough to negate his 100% exp penalty. Fighter/mage doesnt need more exp though, since all he really needs are lvl5 spells, anything more is just for convenience.

Level 6 is pretty useful against illithids, vampires, etc.

This party is pretty good actually. Aerie being the weakest link,

Need to kick Aerie for that
though.

I get the feeling you just have an irrational hatred for the girl.

ncknck wrote...
Keldorn doesnt need more spells, he
already gets the best of them. Permanent protection from charm and hold,
prot from evil, true sight, dispel, summon deva.

None of these really replace the standard cleric function of buffing and healing.

[Gate70]

ncknck, your post may make sense how you play the game but I would disagree with many of your points - some based on my experience and some based on what I have observed from others here.
. I don't see that the OP plans to use mods which he has written himself (XP cap removal is widely available).
. Unmodded BG1 adds 0.5 attacks per round for 2, 3, 4 or 5 stars. So 2 or 5 results in the same number of attacks.
. Why are cleric/mages rather pointless? Quayle can be played well if you choose to/know how to.
. A sample polymorph is here and shows at least two instances in the underdark. Or here to eliminate various vampires up to and including Bodhi.
. Edwin is not the only passable mage. Nalia and Imoen level well as dual class characters and are both acceptable thieves. Jan is a better thief with unique items such as stunning missiles and also benefits from shorty saving throws. Aerie will do fine too but if you're still stuck Yoshimo and Sarevok can dual class.
. It isn't essential to hit the level cap to have a good game, for instance 6 lower level characters will give a difference to a trio of cappers. Reducing numbers to 4/3/2 will make levelling up faster and can therefore trivialise some encounters and see the level caps reached.

Modifié par Gate70, 29 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[ncknck]

Level of Proficiency Attacks per Round
Proficient 1
Specialized 3/2
Master 3/2
High Master 3/2
Grand Master 2

Gate70
Oh, yes, i counted Imoen as BG1 mage, but naturally you are correct in that.

Humanoid_Taifun

Did you know that Cleric/Mages can store clerical spells in contingencies and triggers?

Did you know that there are no contingencies and triggers in bg1? And in Bg2 these spells behave unpredictably if used in clones, which is a far more powerful tool?

You really should read up a little on the adventures of Alesia_BH. You might be surprised.

Im not interested in reading "adventures" of solo players. By now it should be evident that the smaller the party the easier the game. He/she should try playing a full party, i might consider it worth reading.

None of these really replace the standard cleric function of buffing and healing.

Like what. Chant? lol.
 Did you know that Planetars get 3 heals, and other useful divine spells? And it only cost a PI to summon it?

Modifié par ncknck, 29 août 2012 - 11:22 .

[Stezzo]

ncknck, I don't see a reason why you should be so irritate..

The 3-people party option (W/M, Keldorn in BG2, Imoen) without the cleric/mage is tempting, but what if I also wanted a divine caster in the group?

Remember that I do not necessailry want to powerplay (even though your suggestions about it are interesting!), I've just asked for a balanced party.

P.S.: many people don't think that the cleric/mage is that bad. Actually in (at least) one post in this forum is said that they are pretty good at high levels for many reasons/combos.. and not only at high levels. Other comments here seem to validate this view in many respects. And I've never said I'm planning to use any mod other than the xp cap..

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Did you know that there are no contingencies and triggers in bg1?

OP is playing Baldur's Gate 2 though, as should be apparent to you by now.

And in Bg2 these spells behave unpredictably if used in clones, which is a far more powerful tool?

So, because your clone can't use your contingency, you can't have one?

Im not interested in reading "adventures" of solo players. By now it should be evident that the smaller the party the easier the game. He/she should try playing a full party, i might consider it worth reading.

Well, if you don't want to learn something new, it's your own choice.

Like what. Chant? lol.
 Did you know that Planetars get 3 heals, and other useful divine spells? And it only cost a PI to summon it?

Are you still imagining OP to be in Baldur's Gate 1, or are you now envisioning him as starting in Throne of Bhaal?
I also don't quite remember what kind of spells a Deva gets. Please remind me. Are Chaotic Commands and Death Ward among them?

Of course, this all is quite beside the point, since OP was planning for the romance with Aerie, so he will have clerical assistance, unless he turns Aerie into something unexpected.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Gate70 wrote...

Grond0 wrote...
There are no arcane multi-class NPCs in BG1.

Quayle.

I think a lot of people forget Quayle; he seems like one of those annoying characters you find but throw him away.