509 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

AlRPG wrote...

If they could control the "lesser" species. Couldn't they just stop them from building the dangerous AI?

 The Leviathans attempted to control the galaxy with their powers, but they got blindsided by their own AI after their followers destroyed each other by building synthetic life. 

It is basically this; they enthrall a species, species creates robots to help them, robots rebelled and kill species, Leviathan can only enthrall organic life, so they create an AI to deal with the problem. Problem solved by harvesting, Leviathan's blindsided and nearly wiped out, go into survival mode. 

If anything, it shows that the synthetic/organic mix of the Reapers is a weakness in the end to this enthrallment power, and that these guys are just as dangerous as the reapers...

[XqctaX]

The Angry One wrote...

Leviathan! Hooray! Yeah I just couldn't stay away and had to check out the videos.
Though I must admit it is nice of them to attempt to amuse me so much.
I mean, it's hard work making such an incredibly dumb plot that my only reaction is giggling of the 1st order.

So yes, Leviathan. It seems that BioWare has been paying attention to the Catalyst apologists of late, in their latest attempt to defend it's actions.
Too bad that by doing so, they've made the Catalyst a liar (again), crazy or possibly both. It's especially hilarious when the Catalyst claims it was designed to make peace with synthetics, immediately admits that Leviathan's explanation (that it was designed to preserve life at all costs) is true, then repeats it's original claim shortly after.
Hey, BioWare. Either you intentionally made the Catalyst a lunatic, or you don't realise that these two things aren't the same!

Also, too bad that they've gone and made the entire debate as to the Catalyst's responsibility irrelevant. Think about it. Either the Catalyst betrayed it's creator's directives, in which case it's logic is toast and it can't be trusted or it's following the directives of creators who are confirmed to be evil control freak sociopaths in which case their logic which it follows is toast and it can't be trusted.

So yeah, thanks BioWare. The Catalyst is either a psychopath or the tool of psychopaths. Weren't you trying to apologise for it again? You're doing it wrong!
Also, thanks for confirming the creators were not only derps, but super grandmaster derps. "We saw that the lesser species who we controlled made machines that destroyed them. So instead of telling the remaining lesser species to knock it off or else we... decided to do exactly what they did." Uhuh.
And nice explanation for your defeat there, Leviathans. You can usurp control of Reaper minions and EMP bomb Sovereign class ships to death... but you couldn't defeat the Catalyst's information gathering pawns. Yeah, sure. Whatever.

In any case, thank you BioWare for a few minutes of youtube entertainment. It brightened my day.

thanks Tao for a good read. its like you put word to my unfinnished thought,

also something that bugger me is that yet again they use the daddy issue character
to try and force emotion and depth onto a character..

its like they are out of ideas. lol

[XqctaX]

LinksOcarina wrote...

AlRPG wrote...

If they could control the "lesser" species. Couldn't they just stop them from building the dangerous AI?

 The Leviathans attempted to control the galaxy with their powers, but they got blindsided by their own AI after their followers destroyed each other by building synthetic life. 

It is basically this; they enthrall a species, species creates robots to help them, robots rebelled and kill species, Leviathan can only enthrall organic life, so they create an AI to deal with the problem. Problem solved by harvesting, Leviathan's blindsided and nearly wiped out, go into survival mode. 

If anything, it shows that the synthetic/organic mix of the Reapers is a weakness in the end to this enthrallment power, and that these guys are just as dangerous as the reapers...

seemed like soverreign had no problems controling the geth
and the leviathans indoc powers does seem stronger than the reapers considering how fast they could tap into sheps brain.

so i dont see your arguments as beeing valid, only as beeing.. well not true or inconsistant with the presented events in the DLC.

did i miss something about there powers?, i did just youtube it cus i knew it was going to be a joke.

[RiouHotaru]

It's funny that people think that the fact the Leviathans didn't stop the lesser races from making synthetics is a plothole.

No it's not, it means that they likely didn't mind-control the other races (dialog doesn't suggest they did so anyway), or that said mind-control didn't work as effectively as they thought. It's not bad writing, the Leviathans think very highly on themselves.

[Gruntburner]

XqctaX wrote...

seemed like soverreign had no problems controling the geth

The heretics were in the minority.  They chose to worship the Reapers, because they saw it as their inevitable future.  Sovereign never had any real power over the geth.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

RiouHotaru wrote...

It's not a psychopath. It was programmed to "preserve organic life at all costs."

I don't get how "at all costs" gets by people. He did exactly what he was programmed to do, the Leviathan itself admits to such. It's STILL performing it's original duty. What they forgot was to specify that "at all cost" wasn't meant to be "turn us into the solution".

Your argument is not with "at all costs" but rather with the word "preserve."  You're saying that the Star Brat thought the Leviathans were talking about Jams and Jellies or Pickles.  That's fairly silly, and really funny.  Turning living organic creatures into "goo soup" isn't "preserving them" any more than making grape jelly "preserves" the grape.  It's not a grape anymore; it's jelly.

I agree that Leviathan is a writing disaster plotwise.  (And humorously so.)  But did anyone else notice that the quality of the dialogue between squadmates has seriously deteriorated in the DLC from, say, ME2?

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Oh hey, I guess it's official: TAO is trying to make me laugh with another lame thread. So, you don't like that they're not supporting your viewpoints or those of people who couldn't stop complaining about the endings if their lives depended on it? Too bad.

I certainly said all along that the Catalyst did what it did because it had directives that it couldn't disobey and that the harvesting was the only solution that it saw. Somehow, I doubt that BioWare up and decided to write something along those along those lines because of me or anyone else with similar views. It just so happens that we were right, and you weren't - again - kind of like how you weren't right about the galaxy ending, weren't right about the entire fleet being stranded, weren't right about everyone starving, and weren't right about everyone on the mystery world being permanently stranded and having inbred descendants.

And the Leviathans weren't psychopaths - they were an advanced organic race that used sapients as slaves/servants/thralls. There's a certain amount of irony in that. They seem to have created the Catalyst as an easy way to maintain control without expending much effort. They just never anticipated what would happen or that as it grew in complexity it would turn on them.

This argument only sounds good because it omits important facts that TAO has correctly analyzed.  The Leviathans claim that they needed Starbrat to keep their organic thralls from exterminating themselves by making synthetics which turn on them.  So the Leviathans make a synthetic to rid the galaxy of organic-threatening synthetics.  That's stupid.  And a really bad storyline.  And if Leviathans had the power to entrall, why didn't they just command the thralls to stop making synthetics? 

This plot is horrible.  But so bad that it is, indeed, hilarious.  TAO, you're initial post is one of the best I've read.

My only quarrel with you is on Destroy.  In my head canon, Bratboy is a liar, except that shooting the tube does trigger the Crucible to kill the Reapers.  That's why Glowkid tries to make the other options more appealing.  No EDI death.  No dead Geth.  Just dead Reapers.  But otherwise, I fully concur that any decision that kills Shepard is a gift to Starkid and his Reaper pals.

Modifié par PuppiesOfDeath2, 29 août 2012 - 05:34 .

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

MegaSovereign wrote...

All choices except refuse require you to trust the Catalyst and what it says. Period.

That's a strawman. Knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI doesn't mean he's lying about what the choices do. The Catalyst believes all the choices are solutions, so there really isn't a reason why he would lie about the functionality of the Crucible.

This is a silly argument, really..

This is also a false argument.  Glowchild says "Destroy" isn't a solution because "the chaos will come back."  But he knows Shepard can create this result.  So he attempts to make Synthesis and Control more attractive.  Of course, both require Shepard to commit suicide.  How convenient. 

So why would you believe what Starbrat says about the consequences of choosing Destroy when the Glowkid obviously doesn't want you to choose it?

[inversevideo]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

This argument only sounds good because it omits important facts that TAO has correctly analyzed.  The Leviathans claim that they needed Starbrat to keep their organic thralls from exterminating themselves by making synthetics which turn on them.  So the Leviathans make a synthetic to rid the galaxy of organic-threatening synthetics.  That's stupid.  And a really bad storyline.  And if Leviathans had the power to entrall, why didn't they just command the thralls to stop making synthetics? 

This plot is horrible.  But so bad that it is, indeed, hilarious.  TAO, you're initial post is one of the best I've read.

My only quarrel with you is on Destroy.  In my head canon, Bratboy is a liar, except that shooting the tube does trigger the Crucible to kill the Reapers.  That's why Glowkid tries to make the other options more appealing.  No EDI death.  No dead Geth.  Just dead Reapers.  But otherwise, I fully concur that any decision that kills Shepard is a gift to Starkid and his Reaper pals.

Too funny. Who oversees the overseer? Apparently no one.

And I agree!  I love TAO's wicked sarcasm and sharp wit.  Always a great read!

Like you I belive Starkid is lying as well. We have no way of knowing what the crucible was designed to do, but I am certain that shooting a big red machine was not meant to be the way to activate it.

So I am left, with the feeling, that if Starkid provided those choices to you, then each choice was to the kid's advantage, even if the why is not immediately obvious.

Modifié par inversevideo, 29 août 2012 - 06:00 .

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

JSwisha wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Leviathan best $10 I never spent

What did you spend your Leviathan money on? I spent mine on groceries.

Greylycantrope wrote...
Went to the movies over the weekend.

The Angry One wrote...
Bacardi.

AresKeith wrote...
I'm saving it for AC3 lol

C9316 wrote...
I'm saving it to for a possible trip to europe in the future..

This is becoming it's own thread.

I took a **** and wiped my ass with a ten dollar bill. Still beats buying this cluster**** of a DLC

I will use it for Hitman:  Absolution DLC.

[ticklefist]

I'd make you laugh if you let me /shyface

[jumpingkaede]

[quote]PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

All choices except refuse require you to trust the Catalyst and what it says. Period.

That's a strawman. Knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI doesn't mean he's lying about what the choices do. The Catalyst believes all the choices are solutions, so there really isn't a reason why he would lie about the functionality of the Crucible.

This is a silly argument, really..[/quote]

[/quote]

Not really.

You're right: knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI does not mean knowing that he is lying (or telling the truth).

But knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI should affect whether Shepard believes it.

Because now, post-Leviathan, the situation is this:

- Shepard meets the Catalyst.

- Shepard: "Oh, hello rogue AI that turned against your original creators and created the Reapers thereby perpetuating the endless cycle of death and destruction."

- Catalyst: "And a jolly good day to you, Sirrah!  Would you be so kind as to jump to your death in this glowing green beam in order to activate some super DNA wizardry?"

- Shepard: "Roger that, Chap.  Nice knowing you Universe and all that."

- And to which Shepard jumps to his death.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 29 août 2012 - 06:08 .

[Jassu1979]

Boy, am I glad that I did not buy this DLC.

[X086573]

and i'm not glad i did.

[RiouHotaru]

jumpingkaede wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

All choices except refuse require you to trust the Catalyst and what it says. Period.

That's a strawman. Knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI doesn't mean he's lying about what the choices do. The Catalyst believes all the choices are solutions, so there really isn't a reason why he would lie about the functionality of the Crucible.

This is a silly argument, really..

Not really.

You're right: knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI does not mean knowing that he is lying (or telling the truth).

But knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI should affect whether Shepard believes it.

Because now, post-Leviathan, the situation is this:

- Shepard meets the Catalyst.

- Shepard: "Oh, hello rogue AI that turned against your original creators and created the Reapers thereby perpetuating the endless cycle of death and destruction."

- Catalyst: "And a jolly good day to you, Sirrah!  Would you be so kind as to jump to your death in this glowing green beam in order to activate some super DNA wizardry?"

- Shepard: "Roger that, Chap.  Nice knowing you Universe and all that."

- And to which Shepard jumps to his death.

And another strawman.  Did you even bother listening to the dialog line when Shepard tells the Catalyst about the Leviathans?  He's not a rogue AI, even the Leviathans state that it's only doing what it was created to do.  They were just too arrogant to realize their own place in the problem, and by default, the solution.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 29 août 2012 - 06:13 .

[Cainne Chapel]

The Angry One wrote...

Leviathan! Hooray! Yeah I just couldn't stay away and had to check out the videos.
Though I must admit it is nice of them to attempt to amuse me so much.
I mean, it's hard work making such an incredibly dumb plot that my only reaction is giggling of the 1st order.

So yes, Leviathan. It seems that BioWare has been paying attention to the Catalyst apologists of late, in their latest attempt to defend it's actions.
Too bad that by doing so, they've made the Catalyst a liar (again), crazy or possibly both. It's especially hilarious when the Catalyst claims it was designed to make peace with synthetics, immediately admits that Leviathan's explanation (that it was designed to preserve life at all costs) is true, then repeats it's original claim shortly after.
Hey, BioWare. Either you intentionally made the Catalyst a lunatic, or you don't realise that these two things aren't the same!

Also, too bad that they've gone and made the entire debate as to the Catalyst's responsibility irrelevant. Think about it. Either the Catalyst betrayed it's creator's directives, in which case it's logic is toast and it can't be trusted or it's following the directives of creators who are confirmed to be evil control freak sociopaths in which case their logic which it follows is toast and it can't be trusted.

So yeah, thanks BioWare. The Catalyst is either a psychopath or the tool of psychopaths. Weren't you trying to apologise for it again? You're doing it wrong!
Also, thanks for confirming the creators were not only derps, but super grandmaster derps. "We saw that the lesser species who we controlled made machines that destroyed them. So instead of telling the remaining lesser species to knock it off or else we... decided to do exactly what they did." Uhuh.
And nice explanation for your defeat there, Leviathans. You can usurp control of Reaper minions and EMP bomb Sovereign class ships to death... but you couldn't defeat the Catalyst's information gathering pawns. Yeah, sure. Whatever.

In any case, thank you BioWare for a few minutes of youtube entertainment. It brightened my day.

TAO...you sound so.... angry

That said, still best $10 I spent yesterday,  Even got me to stop playing GW 2 for a few hours

I do agree though the Leviathans intelligence (supposed) was shown to be wrong again, amazing how all these advanced civilications get so smart they make dumb mistakes eh?

These aliens are more human than it seems

[inversevideo]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Boy, am I glad that I did not buy this DLC.

I bought it.  No big. I knew going in that there would be some insanity. 
But unlike the ME3 endings, I knew going in there would be some insanity with this DLC.

I wanted to experience for myself, and now I have.
I'm not sorry I did.  I actually had fun.

But there are some problems, which TAO stated much more elegantly than I ever could.

I'm not sure what anyone can do about the logic bomb that Caty has become/introduced.
Other than to let Bioware know and hope that some writer or team of writers will rise and take on the challenge of cleaning it all up.

I guess I am hopefull, or .. maybe ... naive ... enough, to think that to be true.
Or maybe it is cynicism, and firm faith in our capitalist ideals, that there is an awful lot of cash, on the table, and there is no way someone in EA is going to contiinue to let it slide to the floor and into a sewer grate.  At some point someone is going to swallow, or be ordered to eat, their integrity, and start scooping that cash up. 

Modifié par inversevideo, 29 août 2012 - 06:21 .

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

jumpingkaede wrote...

I agree.  The quote you selected is from MegaSovereign, not me. 

Modifié par PuppiesOfDeath2, 29 août 2012 - 06:21 .

[jumpingkaede]

RiouHotaru wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

All choices except refuse require you to trust the Catalyst and what it says. Period.

That's a strawman. Knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI doesn't mean he's lying about what the choices do. The Catalyst believes all the choices are solutions, so there really isn't a reason why he would lie about the functionality of the Crucible.

This is a silly argument, really..

Not really.

You're right: knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI does not mean knowing that he is lying (or telling the truth).

But knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI should affect whether Shepard believes it.

Because now, post-Leviathan, the situation is this:

- Shepard meets the Catalyst.

- Shepard: "Oh, hello rogue AI that turned against your original creators and created the Reapers thereby perpetuating the endless cycle of death and destruction."

- Catalyst: "And a jolly good day to you, Sirrah!  Would you be so kind as to jump to your death in this glowing green beam in order to activate some super DNA wizardry?"

- Shepard: "Roger that, Chap.  Nice knowing you Universe and all that."

- And to which Shepard jumps to his death.

And another strawman.  Did you even bother listening to the dialog line when Shepard tells the Catalyst about the Leviathans?  He's not a rogue AI, even the Leviathans state that it's only doing what it was created to do.  They were just too arrogant to realize their own place in the problem, and by default, the solution.

I was just responding to the original post which said that "knowing the Catalyst is a rogue AI" . . .

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

I agree.  The quote you selected is from MegaSovereign, not me. 

I can't make heads or tails of this forum's mechanics. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 29 août 2012 - 06:22 .

[darkiddd]

I can't believe nobody put this yet

 

[BlessedSoldier]

Hey Bioware!

http://ts3.mm.bing.n...19275f1d1b83fa0

[DOYOURLABS]

N7L4D wrote...

 www.youtube.com/watch

[Krunjar]

oooh more whiney fans who hate the game and yet are still pesumably buying the dlc. or at least watching it on youtube.

Get a life.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

Krunjar wrote...

oooh more whiney fans who hate the game and yet are still pesumably buying the dlc. or at least watching it on youtube.

Get a life.

You must have chosen "Control."

[ticklefist]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

oooh more whiney fans who hate the game and yet are still pesumably buying the dlc. or at least watching it on youtube.

Get a life.

You must have chosen "Control."

Whatever that means. But yeah, why so douchebag, Krunjar?