509 réponses à ce sujet

[MattFini]

Krunjar wrote...

oooh more whiney fans who hate the game and yet are still pesumably buying the dlc. or at least watching it on youtube.

Get a life.

Says the guy posting on a message board.  

[clarkusdarkus]

So we could have had conventional victory afterall....

And Leviathan could have told us of starbrat afterall but didn't because it would have ruined the endings there never changing....

Leviathans all mighty & powerfull can kill a reaper in an instant but can't deactivate what they create or tell shepard where and how...........

hi im troy mclor, you may remember me from a plot that made sense but not......

Modifié par clarkusdarkus, 29 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[LilLino]

Leviathans can kill a single Reaper on their territory. Wow, means we can win this war.
Wait, no, it doesn't. ohhhhh

[Memnon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Not really.

You're right: knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI does not mean knowing that he is lying (or telling the truth).

But knowing that the Catalyst is a rogue AI should affect whether Shepard believes it.

Because now, post-Leviathan, the situation is this:

- Shepard meets the Catalyst.

- Shepard: "Oh, hello rogue AI that turned against your original creators and created the Reapers thereby perpetuating the endless cycle of death and destruction."

- Catalyst: "And a jolly good day to you, Sirrah!  Would you be so kind as to jump to your death in this glowing green beam in order to activate some super DNA wizardry?"

- Shepard: "Roger that, Chap.  Nice knowing you Universe and all that."

- And to which Shepard jumps to his death.

And another strawman.  Did you even bother listening to the dialog line when Shepard tells the Catalyst about the Leviathans?  He's not a rogue AI, even the Leviathans state that it's only doing what it was created to do.  They were just too arrogant to realize their own place in the problem, and by default, the solution.

It's not a strawman. Leviathan outright says the AI was allowed to evolve, which (to my knowledge) means it is unshackled. It's not rogue, it is completely free to evolve and do whatever it wants, including mislead people (like EDI did). Harbinger - and in fact all of the Reapers - recognize Shepard as a threat, so the Catalyst would as well.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

Either you intentionally made the Catalyst a lunatic, or you don't realise that these two things aren't the same!

That's the point. It's why the Catalyst is the villain. You aren't supposed to agree with the Reaper cycle, nor are you ever supposed to believe that the cycle was what his creators intended. In any case, the main problem with the Catalyst's beliefs were always that none of the endings really overcome or triumph over them. Even Destroy feels hollow in this respect.

But the problem isn't with the Catalyst's origins or motivations per se.

[Sil]

I always thought the Catalyst was an insane AI that had corrupted programming which instigated the Reaper Cycle. From the first moment it started talking, I realised that it's probably talking a whole load of crap and lying to my face, but Shepard was so weak, and the battle going so poorly, that he had to make a decision regardless of the Catalyst's bullpoop. Hence, why Destroy was picked.. to destroy the meanies.

[thegamefreek78648]

AlRPG wrote...

If they could control the "lesser" species. Couldn't they just stop them from building the dangerous AI?

Wasnt their problem, it didnt effect them, only annoyed them when it blew up in the lesser species's faces

The dead offer no tribute

[davidshooter]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...


The Leviathans claim that they needed Starbrat to keep their organic thralls from exterminating themselves by making synthetics which turn on them.  So the Leviathans make a synthetic to rid the galaxy of organic-threatening synthetics.  That's stupid.  And a really bad storyline.  And if Leviathans had the power to entrall, why didn't they just command the thralls to stop making synthetics? 

This plot is horrible.  But so bad that it is, indeed, hilarious.

It's also quite tragic to realize that this ridiculous nonsense now lurks behind that brilliant exchange with Sovereign from the first game.......and completely ruins it.

Modifié par davidshooter, 29 août 2012 - 07:29 .

[AlanC9]

davidshooter wrote...

It's also quite tragic to realize that this ridiculous nonsense now lurks behind that brilliant exchange with Sovereign from the first game.......and completely ruins it.

I was always with Shepard there. For all his pretention, Sovereign's just a machine.

[CronoDragoon]

davidshooter wrote...

It's also quite tragic to realize that this ridiculous nonsense now lurks behind that brilliant exchange with Sovereign from the first game.......and completely ruins it.

It's not really that brilliant. Sovereign is just being incredibly arrogant the whole time, and Shepard is all "you can't do that! We won't let you!" There's nothing deep or meaningful going on in that scene, it's just the first time people see a Reaper so it made an impression.

Although it remains to be scene how the Catalyst can tie in with ME1's story, I think it's a nice addition to have the Leviathans reflect the arrogance of the Reapers.

[TK514]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Because letting organics be aware of the Reapers existence would be too problematic for the Catalyst.

Doesn't seem to be an issue for our new machine overlord, Control Shepard.

MegaSovereign wrote...

Plus over time the Reapers will need to replenish their numbers. Guess what: that requires them to harvest organics.

Same as above.

Of course, if the directive is 'preserve organic life at any cost', one wonders why the need for the Reapers at all.

Really, how do you get from 'preserve life' to 'galactic harvest'?  What's the train of thought that leads to that conclusion as the best method?  Since we're clearly not concerned about quality of life, why not just take a breeding pair of Leviathans and put them in eternal stasis out in darkspace somewhere so no one will ever find or threaten them?  There.  Life is preserved, in a far more efficient and ultimately less dangerous way than creating and maintaining an armed force to wage war on the galaxy every 50,000 years.  Actually, it's pretty clear the Catalyst and the Reapers aren't even particularly interested in maintaining individuality.  Just 'life'.  So you don't even have to have live specimens.  Just take a DNA sample and put that in eternal stasis somewhere.

Granted, almost anything would have made more sense than the way the Catalyst chose.

[Tocquevillain]

OP, you sound like a first year university student with the DSM-IV in her lap.

You sound speechless as you breathlessly reveal to us what we all know: that God-like beings in the Mass Effect universe acted like they had God-like powers.

You're somehow trying to paint Bioware as "bad" for making a fictional story with God-like characters, and I can't understand why your post has any traction at all with the community.

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 29 août 2012 - 08:08 .

[David7204]

I don't get it. What exactly is the problem here? It's suddenly news to you that the Catalyst is evil or wrong or mistaken or crazy? You couldn't figure that out by the fact that the Reapers have murdered quadrillions under him?

[mxfox408]

Yay more plot holes, damn, Bioware just stop already, if the levitation can defeat the reapers how the hell did they end up harvested? Again more plot holes, biowAre would have been better off adopting the IT or any other fan fiction. I don't get how fans come up with better stories than people getting paid to make stories. It proves once things become all about money instead of craft, it fails.

[Tocquevillain]

TK514 wrote...

Really, how do you get from 'preserve life' to 'galactic harvest'?  What's the train of thought that leads to that conclusion as the best method?  Since we're clearly not concerned about quality of life, why not just take a breeding pair of Leviathans and put them in eternal stasis out in darkspace somewhere so no one will ever find or threaten them?  There.  Life is preserved, in a far more efficient and ultimately less dangerous way than creating and maintaining an armed force to wage war on the galaxy every 50,000 years.  Actually, it's pretty clear the Catalyst and the Reapers aren't even particularly interested in maintaining individuality.  Just 'life'.  So you don't even have to have live specimens.  Just take a DNA sample and put that in eternal stasis somewhere.

Granted, almost anything would have made more sense than the way the Catalyst chose.

How do you get such a ridiculous idea and jump ahead to "anything would have made more sense than the way the Catalyst chose"? Your idea is completely at odds with the goal of promoting the continuous existence of life in the universe. I mean, listen to yourself, you're thinking more rigidly (and stupidly, according to the community's beliefs regarding the story) than even the Catalyst!

Catalyst with mandate to protect life: "I will let life develop naturally wherever it springs up, but spacefaring, intelligent species will be destroyed every 50k years so they don't kill everything. "

Sounds a bit dumb according to the community, but how does this sound...?

TK541 with mandate to protect life  - "Let intelligent life advance to the point where machines created by intelligent life kill everything in the galaxy. I will hide two Leviathans in space to make babies, achieving my mandate. "

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 29 août 2012 - 08:05 .

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...
 Weren't you trying to apologise for it again? You're doing it wrong!

This seems to be the crux of your post, since everything is explaining what we already know (that the Catalyst is the bad guy), where did BioWare say you should think the Catalyst is right in what he does?

[Ticonderoga117]

thegamefreek78648 wrote...

AlRPG wrote...

If they could control the "lesser" species. Couldn't they just stop them from building the dangerous AI?

Wasnt their problem, it didnt effect them, only annoyed them when it blew up in the lesser species's faces

The dead offer no tribute

But that's nonsensical.
If it wasn't thier problem, they wouldn't do anything. But they did.

[Tocquevillain]

David7204 wrote...

I don't get it. What exactly is the problem here? It's suddenly news to you that the Catalyst is evil or wrong or mistaken or crazy? You couldn't figure that out by the fact that the Reapers have murdered quadrillions under him?

You and me both! The community seems to have latched on to OP's post as some sort of proof of silliness on Bioware's part, as if Gods acting as Gods is a) totally abnormal and  just flat out wrong from a creative standpoint, and that the Catalyst was actually intended by Bioware to be doing a good thing!

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 29 août 2012 - 08:15 .

[Grub Killer8016]

After watching it on Youtube, I had a change of opinion. It is good for what it is, but not worth the 10 bucks.

[GhostShadow115]

The thing that bugs me is.:
ME 1: Reapers are Godlike "things" that are eons old.
ME 2: You can make Reapers from humans, hence the Human Reaper that looks human... because it has liquified humans in it...?
(Although other species too, but if you listen to what Harbinger says in combat he does say why some species aren't good enough to make a Reaper.)
ME 3 Original AND Extended ending: Everything can become any kind of Reaper... (Alright)
ME 3 Leviathan: Everything becomes a Reaper formed in Harbingers image.

Alright someone please explain this to me, I'm truly lost.....

[Yakko77]

davidshooter wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...


The Leviathans claim that they needed Starbrat to keep their organic thralls from exterminating themselves by making synthetics which turn on them.  So the Leviathans make a synthetic to rid the galaxy of organic-threatening synthetics.  That's stupid.  And a really bad storyline.  And if Leviathans had the power to entrall, why didn't they just command the thralls to stop making synthetics? 

This plot is horrible.  But so bad that it is, indeed, hilarious.

It's also quite tragic to realize that this ridiculous nonsense now lurks behind that brilliant exchange with Sovereign from the first game.......and completely ruins it.

 I still absolutely love the first game for that and other reasons.  I hate the ending of Mass Effect 3 because what they got so right with Mass Effect 1 they did so wrong with Mass Effect 3.  It's mind boggling.  How did they fall so far?

[Yakko77]

GhostShadow115 wrote...

The thing that bugs me is.:
ME 1: Reapers are Godlike "things" that are eons old.
ME 2: You can make Reapers from humans, hence the Human Reaper that looks human... because it has liquified humans in it...?
(Although other species too, but if you listen to what Harbinger says in combat he does say why some species aren't good enough to make a Reaper.)
ME 3 Original AND Extended ending: Everything can become any kind of Reaper... (Alright)
ME 3 Leviathan: Everything becomes a Reaper formed in Harbingers image.

Alright someone please explain this to me, I'm truly lost.....

It's probably best if we just stop thinking about it and move on.  I've been going off since the game came out and BW is not seriously doing anything about it.  Even the extended cut just explained away a couple plot holes but the moment Star Brat shows up...... 

[GhostShadow115]

Yakko77 wrote...

GhostShadow115 wrote...

The thing that bugs me is.:
ME 1: Reapers are Godlike "things" that are eons old.
ME 2: You can make Reapers from humans, hence the Human Reaper that looks human... because it has liquified humans in it...?
(Although other species too, but if you listen to what Harbinger says in combat he does say why some species aren't good enough to make a Reaper.)
ME 3 Original AND Extended ending: Everything can become any kind of Reaper... (Alright)
ME 3 Leviathan: Everything becomes a Reaper formed in Harbingers image.

Alright someone please explain this to me, I'm truly lost.....

It's probably best if we just stop thinking about it and move on.  I've been going off since the game came out and BW is not seriously doing anything about it.  Even the extended cut just explained away a couple plot holes but the moment Star Brat shows up...... 

Alright then lets think back then on the glorious moment when Sovereign blew up in the Citadel, and forget about Starbrat.

[CronoDragoon]

GhostShadow115 wrote...

The thing that bugs me is.:
ME 1: Reapers are Godlike "things" that are eons old.
ME 2: You can make Reapers from humans, hence the Human Reaper that looks human... because it has liquified humans in it...?
(Although other species too, but if you listen to what Harbinger says in combat he does say why some species aren't good enough to make a Reaper.)
ME 3 Original AND Extended ending: Everything can become any kind of Reaper... (Alright)
ME 3 Leviathan: Everything becomes a Reaper formed in Harbingers image.

Alright someone please explain this to me, I'm truly lost.....

The shell is always the same. The core of the Reaper is shaped in the form of the race liquified. Also, I believe I remember that the Reapers only select one race to make a Capital ship each cycle, and the other races get turned into lesser Reapers. Someone feel free to correct me here.

[FIN-Olmi]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that catalyst is an AI built by leviathans to act as a peace keeper between "lesser" organics and synthetics. For example if it worked as intended in current ME cycle it would have been resolving the geth and quarian war so quarians wouldn't had had to go into exile in the first place.
But the catalyst/AI went insane, built harbinger (into the image of it's creators. The leviathans) and slaughtered the leviathans. And so began the cycle. It want's to raise organics in a way that pleases it and then harvest them building a new reaper.
So I think people are thinking the catalyst AI too difficult. It is not some shiny deity boy with a master plan which is too complex/confilcting/artistically integrate. NO. It is simply an crazy rogue AI. People complain "there is no logic in what the catalyst says" Well no **** Sherlock. Why do you search for logic when there is none. Was there supposed to be any reason in the words of a lunatic who believes people are saved by killing and melting them?