509 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

The Angry One wrote...

Also, the DLC completely contradicts the idea that organic life must be preserved. Because even the Reapers couldn't wipe out their own creators. The "first" intelligent species. After billions of years. Come on. You could shove continents through that plot hole.

You're really exaggerating now..

Further proof of the Reapers' logic and their methods being fallible isn't a plot hole.

Don't cherry pick. That alone doesn't. That is just a single flaw that makes the ending choice require metagaming.
The contradictions and interactions with the already established ending are what make it laughable.

It doesn't require metagaming. The Catalyst says that it needs a new solution since the current one has been proven to be flawed. There is no reason as to why it would trick you since it could have just let you bleed out. It's in the Catalyst's best interest to find a new solution. The dialogue with the Catalyst confirms that. See that? All face-value. No interpretations or headcanon.

And Metagaming only confirms this even more by revealing that the Catalyst wasn't lying about the Crucible's functionality.

I was willing to give Leviathan the benefit of the doubt despite my predictions.Tis not my fault it fulfilled my predicitions and turned the ending into even more of a self-contradictory cluste****.

If you say so. To me it looks like self-fulfilling prophecy. But I can only take your word for it.

[AresKeith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

except for that's not really the case why some of us didn't like Leviathan

I believe you. Some people wanted Leviathan to be a war asset in the final cutscenes of the game. The lack of this wasn't a major deal breaker since I wasn't expecting any changes to Priority Earth with the DLC but I can understand why others would consider it to be.

no one really excepted any changes towards the ending, and them becoming pointless War Assets is really stupid. But some the real disliking towards it, is really coming from how they explained everything. It was nice of Bioware to try and give some back story to the Reapers, but imo narratively they made it really stupid and yes the ending conversion with the Catalyst about them ends up contradicting itself again

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Being fallable is one thing. Being a collosal idiot with no logic whatsoever and an estimated IQ of 1 is quite another.

The Reapers and their creators are now the latter.

Well, the Leviathans are, as I said before: arrogant, self-absorbed jack-asses.  So full of themselves they considered themselves the dominant lifeform in the entire galaxy.

And that they were so full of themselves they didn't stop to think about the implications of what they were doing isn't bad writing.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Yup the reapers are now approaching Cerberus incompetence, Not only did they "miss" protheons on two different locations in the same cycle but now they have also failed in hitting their "primary" target in over 20000 cycles...

You do realize that the intent of this DLC was to make them fallible? That this was stated?

That they don't always kill everything?

****ing A people.

You do realize that if they are so fallible that they "miss" so often that it is highly probable that an AI could survive a harvest as well - If both AI and Biological races sometimes survive then the whole foundation of what the reapers are doing is just plain bonkers.

[marshalleck]

Bioware have the best writers in the industry!

[JBPBRC]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Yup the reapers are now approaching Cerberus incompetence, Not only did they "miss" protheons on two different locations in the same cycle but now they have also failed in hitting their "primary" target in over 20000 cycles...

You do realize that the intent of this DLC was to make them fallible? That this was stated?

That they don't always kill everything?

****ing A people.

You do realize that if they are so fallible that they "miss" so often that it is highly probable that an AI could survive a harvest as well - If both AI and Biological races sometimes survive then the whole foundation of what the reapers are doing is just plain bonkers.

Yeah, the possibility of an AI surviving and evolving has always been there. If something like Vigil could survive, its left open that a more intelligent synthetic program could have as well.

[Ticonderoga117]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Well, the Leviathans are, as I said before: arrogant, self-absorbed jack-asses.  So full of themselves they considered themselves the dominant lifeform in the entire galaxy.

And that they were so full of themselves they didn't stop to think about the implications of what they were doing isn't bad writing.

True, but then being SO incompetent that the Catalyst, with no Reapers to help him, could be them when we see Levi taking out a Capital Reaper with nary a problem is bad writing.

How do you avoid this? Off the top of my head: "Levi's race either has to go tentacle-a-tentacle or show several Reapers attacking Waterworld and having a good bit make it through to fight".

[The Angry One]

MegaSovereign wrote...

You're really exaggerating now..

Further proof of the Reapers' logic and their methods being fallible isn't a plot hole.

Stop confusing fallability with idiocy.
These are their creators after billions of years. One race that completely disproves the Catalyst's assertions.

It doesn't require metagaming. The Catalyst says that it needs a new solution since the current one has been proven to be flawed. There is no reason as to why it would trick you since it could have just let you bleed out. It's in the Catalyst's best interest to find a new solution. The dialogue with the Catalyst confirms that. See that? All face-value. No interpretations or headcanon.

It's in the Catalyst's interest to find a solution that suits it. Assuming it's even telling the truth about it.

And Metagaming only confirms this even more by revealing that the Catalyst wasn't lying about the Crucible's functionality.

Which is irrelevant to my point that it's bad writing.

If you say so. To me it looks like self-fulfilling prophecy. But I can only take your word for it.

It would be self-fulfilling if I had any control over the DLC.

[Ghost]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

All of TOA posts are invalid because TOA refused to answer my question because I was right.

Who is TOA?

TAO ignores my posts because I proved her wrong awhile ago and she couldn't take it.

[Taboo]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

You do realize that if they are so fallible that they "miss" so often that it is highly probable that an AI could survive a harvest as well - If both AI and Biological races sometimes survive then the whole foundation of what the reapers are doing is just plain bonkers.

Amazing! You've figured out why the Catalyst's solution is so stupid! Bravo! He's fallible!

This is why he gives you three others.

Even Destroy is better than his solution. This is why he gets angry in Refuse. You aren't being logical.

[Anacronian Stryx]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Because they don't want to come out and risk the Reapers finishing what they started all those cycles ago.  As Garrus states post Leviathan:  "This doesn't change anything, but it helps to be able to see the bigger picture."

How does this not change anything? They can EMP bomb Sovereign class Reapers!
Even if that's not permanent, it's a MAJOR battlefield advantage because we know that frigate grade torpedos can punch right through their hulls.

Or let's forget that. How about just assuming direct control of Reaper miniions? Oh look, suddenly the battle in London becomes irrelevant because there is no battle in London, aside from the destroyers.
Conduit rush? Send in husks, marauders and brutes to bum rush Harby while the real troops slip in.

Greed1914 wrote...

Not only are they doing it wrong by killing, and hence not
preserving, countless organics, but they're doing it wrong by risking
themselves and losing the very organics they supposedly preserved.  I'm
just baffled by how this could be deemed as achieiving its objective. 

Also, what the hell happened to the "pawns" the Catalyst used to defeat it's creators?
It seems it was able to crush the apex species easily with them. Why isn't it using those to harvest and keep the Reapers safe?

An educated guess is that the "pawns" will turn out to be the keepers in a future DLC because the galaxy is really a small place.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Being fallable is one thing. Being a collosal idiot with no logic whatsoever and an estimated IQ of 1 is quite another.

The Reapers and their creators are now the latter.

Well, the Leviathans are, as I said before: arrogant, self-absorbed jack-asses.  So full of themselves they considered themselves the dominant lifeform in the entire galaxy.

And that they were so full of themselves they didn't stop to think about the implications of what they were doing isn't bad writing.

It is, because they establish that they KNOW it's a bad idea. They've SEEN the consequences of it. Then they do it anyway.

An example of fallibility and hubris would be, the Leviathans desired order, and therefore created an AI to maintain order. The AI then came up with the most efficient way to maintain order in it's mind and killed it's creators.
But of course this explanation would have to ditch Mac's sub-Battlestar Galactica organics vs. synthetics cycle nonsense and we can't have that.

Ghost1017 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

All of TOA posts are invalid because TOA refused to answer my question because I was right.

Who is TOA?

TAO ignores my posts because I proved her wrong awhile ago and she couldn't take it.

Asking me to marry you is not proving me wrong,. laddie.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 août 2012 - 02:17 .

[Mazebook]

The Angry One wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Well titel proves one thing...

your ego is infinite.

Levity is lost on the young, it seems.

yeah. it only takes a few weeks to write a DLC, record, make maps and gameplay around it. Leviathan was most likely written and recorded along with the EC. If you haven´t notice. just like in the EC...joker has no special dialoge to the mission. So no, this is not a reaction to any discussion held in the last 2 months.

So why does it contradict the EC?

First, this proves that the Catalyst did not lie, second it can´t be crazy if it is just doing what it was created to do.

Either Leviathan or the Catalyst is lying. Since the Catalyst contradicts itself, it's likely the latter. This also makes it appear insane.

It always said it preserves Organic ...just as Synthetic life. It sees them both as equal.

Listen to the Catalyst. In the EC it states it was created to bring peace between organics and synthetics.

The leviathans saw themselfs as gods. gods who cared about the little ones who always destroyed themselfs. The logic is as sound as ever, because the problem has not changed. Giving the Partys lables as evil and sociopaths without justfing it makes your argument as weak as it can gets.

Yet again, "They're not psychopaths, they just behave like them!".

The Catalyst had never responsibilty. This much was clear even in the original ending. He did what he was created to do. The Gods did not see themselfs challenged . they underestimated the synthetics. They were as arrogant as the reapers. Their downfall is the same. The logic is the same. The level of trust you can give the Catalyst is the same.

They are untrustworthy, hence that which follows their directives is too. They're also completely illogical, and you're still ignoring the contradiction.

Who said that Bioware wants to apologise for anything? Do you have discussions in your head that only you can hear?

They created the Catalyst as a genocidal maniac, suddenly realised that cooperating with a genocidal maniac is, you know, bad and have spent every DLC since trying to justify it.

Who said that they did not try this? They most likely did if they had seen the Problems arise. but guess what?!
it did not work. Arrogance of Power is something the Reapers and Leviathans share. They did not think the Catalyst would be able to defeat them...as the Reapers did not thought that Shepard could defeat them.

If it didn't work, this would've proved that they were not all powerful.
If they could not control the lesser species, how could they control an AI? Do the one thing BioWare no longer wants you to do. Think.

A word of advise.
the world does not turn around you!
You should seek a more humble state of mind.

Take my advice. Taking obiviously facetious thread titles seriously never ends well.

I know, you only make jokes. You just coquet with your Ego. I just don´t believe you.

1. It does not contradict the EC in the slightest, as I see it. also you failed to mention a example where that is the case. You speak of contractions but fail to present them. 

2. Yes to bring peace. it brought peace. It combined them into one being. The reapers seem to be intune with themselfs. The Catalyst did exactly what it was created to do. Bring peace, preserve life. both are represented in the reapers. Our definition is different. That is why he is the villan.

3. What is psychopathic to want to bring peace to lesser species. They overestimated their abilties to control the Catalyst. They were arrogant. It only did what it was created. to bring peace at all cost. If that meant keeping the creators in the dark on how he will acomplish his task. Than that he will do.
If arrogance is psychopathic...than yes...they are. 

4. Why they are Untrustworthy...? they both pretty much telling you the same story. Nothing has changed in terms of trust. for example : Synthesis is still a leap of faith.

5. Arrogant beings always ignores their own flaws. "Let an A.I. figure this out. This is beneath me."

6. Bioware wants you to think, so much is 
obviouse . They are just overestimating the will of the people to think with an open mind. 

[JBPBRC]

The Angry One wrote...

... explanation would have to ditch Mac's sub-Battlestar Galactica organics vs. synthetics cycle nonsense and we can't have that.

*SUB*-Battlestar Galactica? Come on now. Its hardcore BSG.

[RiouHotaru]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

You do realize that if they are so fallible that they "miss" so often that it is highly probable that an AI could survive a harvest as well - If both AI and Biological races sometimes survive then the whole foundation of what the reapers are doing is just plain bonkers.

Amazing! You've figured out why the Catalyst's solution is so stupid! Bravo! He's fallible!

This is why he gives you three others.

Even Destroy is better than his solution. This is why he gets angry in Refuse. You aren't being logical.

Taboo, there's no point.  For everyone, the fact Leviathan didn't change anything (despite Bioware stating it wouldn't change anything) is a self-fullfilling prophecy.  We've already pointed out the fact that NOTHING in Leviathan contradicts what we already knew or were told.  At this point they're just fabricating context.

[Bob the Elcor]

With curiosity, so I guess it's not worth buying?

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

It is, because they establish that they KNOW it's a bad idea. They've SEEN the consequences of it. Then they do it anyway.

An example of fallibility and hubris would be, the Leviathans desired order, and therefore created an AI to maintain order. The AI then came up with the most efficient way to maintain order in it's mind and killed it's creators.
But of course this explanation would have to ditch Mac's sub-Battlestar Galactica organics vs. synthetics cycle nonsense and we can't have that.

No, they've seen LESSER races try and fail.  Remember, the Leviathans are the apex race, the cream of the galactic crop.  So of course, if they do it, it'll go better, because they're the best at what they do.

(That's the thought process anyway, fits exactly what we're told too)

And it doesn't require ditching the organic/synthetic conflict.

[The Angry One]

Whatevs maaze, tell me when you have an answer for the contradictions other than "Nuh uh!".

Moving along now. I shall return on Saturday, no doubt the Synthesis Life Improvement Policy Promotion Department will sorely miss me until then.

RiouHotaru wrote...

No, they've seen LESSER races try and
fail.  Remember, the Leviathans are the apex race, the cream of the
galactic crop.  So of course, if they do it, it'll go better, because
they're the best at what they do.

(That's the thought process anyway, fits exactly what we're told too)

And it doesn't require ditching the organic/synthetic conflict.

Caught this just before I was going off, so might as well respond.
Riou, don't confuse arrogance with pure stupidity. If only the lesser species fail and are vulnerable, then just make them stop. That's the only solution needed. If you CAN'T make them stop without an AI to help you... then you're not infallable.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 août 2012 - 02:22 .

[Ticonderoga117]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Taboo, there's no point.  For everyone, the fact Leviathan didn't change anything (despite Bioware stating it wouldn't change anything) is a self-fullfilling prophecy.  We've already pointed out the fact that NOTHING in Leviathan contradicts what we already knew or were told.  At this point they're just fabricating context.

It just makes everything worse. Mass Effect has now degraded to "Idiot plot" and could've easily been stopped by one simple, smart, thing.

[C9316]

So as if it was not obvious already, all Leviathan does is allude to the catalyst. Ten dollars for something that hints at something we already know.. nice.

[RiouHotaru]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Taboo, there's no point.  For everyone, the fact Leviathan didn't change anything (despite Bioware stating it wouldn't change anything) is a self-fullfilling prophecy.  We've already pointed out the fact that NOTHING in Leviathan contradicts what we already knew or were told.  At this point they're just fabricating context.

It just makes everything worse. Mass Effect has now degraded to "Idiot plot" and could've easily been stopped by one simple, smart, thing.

And what is that one simple thing?

[JBPBRC]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It is, because they establish that they KNOW it's a bad idea. They've SEEN the consequences of it. Then they do it anyway.

An example of fallibility and hubris would be, the Leviathans desired order, and therefore created an AI to maintain order. The AI then came up with the most efficient way to maintain order in it's mind and killed it's creators.
But of course this explanation would have to ditch Mac's sub-Battlestar Galactica organics vs. synthetics cycle nonsense and we can't have that.

No, they've seen LESSER races try and fail.  Remember, the Leviathans are the apex race, the cream of the galactic crop.  So of course, if they do it, it'll go better, because they're the best at what they do.

(That's the thought process anyway, fits exactly what we're told too)

And it doesn't require ditching the organic/synthetic conflict.

Lies! All lies! Humans are obviously the bestest race in Mass Effect!

[AresKeith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

You do realize that if they are so fallible that they "miss" so often that it is highly probable that an AI could survive a harvest as well - If both AI and Biological races sometimes survive then the whole foundation of what the reapers are doing is just plain bonkers.

Amazing! You've figured out why the Catalyst's solution is so stupid! Bravo! He's fallible!

This is why he gives you three others.

Even Destroy is better than his solution. This is why he gets angry in Refuse. You aren't being logical.

Taboo, there's no point.  For everyone, the fact Leviathan didn't change anything (despite Bioware stating it wouldn't change anything) is a self-fullfilling prophecy.  We've already pointed out the fact that NOTHING in Leviathan contradicts what we already knew or were told.  At this point they're just fabricating context.

I didn't know the Earth mission counted as the ending, I just though it was the last mission that could've been done so much better, especially since you now have allies who can take control of Reaper forces and probably a Reaper

[MegaSovereign]

The Angry One wrote...

Stop confusing fallability with idiocy.
These are their creators after billions of years. One race that completely disproves the Catalyst's assertions.

They've managed to stay hidden on a planet that your average humanoid organic wouldn't settle on (all ocean, no land? IIRC).

It's much more believable than say, the Crucible plans being on Mars without the Reapers knowing...So I have to disagree there.

It's in the Catalyst's interest to find a solution that suits it. Assuming it's even telling the truth about it.

And Control/Destroy/Synthesis all suit it. It has a preference for Synthesis because to it its the long-term one (as opposed to Destroy where synthetics can be rebuilt).

Which is irrelevant to my point that it's bad writing.

I was only saying that the only thing meta-gaming does is back up the fact that it wasn't lying about the Crucible's functionality. It wasn't necessary to the narrative in order to gain the Catalyst's trust on what the Crucible does.

It would be self-fulfilling if I had any control over the DLC

You have control over your perception and judgement. I'm not going to antagonize you for doing it. It's only human. Humans suck.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 29 août 2012 - 02:24 .

[Taboo]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Taboo, there's no point.  For everyone, the fact Leviathan didn't change anything (despite Bioware stating it wouldn't change anything) is a self-fullfilling prophecy.  We've already pointed out the fact that NOTHING in Leviathan contradicts what we already knew or were told.  At this point they're just fabricating context.

It just makes everything worse. Mass Effect has now degraded to "Idiot plot" and could've easily been stopped by one simple, smart, thing.

Or a story about how people don't take responsibility for their creations.

Everything that happened could have been prevented. It's a tragedy of cosmic proportions.

At some point, someone thought they knew best and made a decision that resulted in quintillions been killed and preserved in Reaper form.

It's about hubris. Arrogance.

And Shepard can stop it once and for all.