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[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because the Reapers would simply fly over and Reap the galaxy before it could build up strong enough?

It's not like the Reapers are blind to the comings and goings of the galaxy, thanks to Sovereign/the Collections/their various artifacts.

So they knock out Soverign in 10 seconds, knock out the Citadel's Relay, and voila! No problem!

Or, they need not worry about Soverign because only Harbinger was around after the first cycle and thus there was no vanguard yet.

[Blackmind1]

Do you honestly think Bioware give a damn about what you say at this point? You've been on here ranting and raving like an egomaniac since the ending broke back in March. It's highly likely that you're making them laugh right now.

[Dean_the_Young]

C9316 wrote...

But in this case that's completely false now isn't it? They created a machine, which ultimately destroyed a great deal of them just like their less capable thralls. You'd think this would be a wake-up call, but they still seem as arrogant as they were when they were the apex of life.

Hm? Being the apex doesn't mean you're infallible, but mutual failure doesn't imply equality. The Leviathan hardly deny that they were overthrown, but they're also clearly far more capable than any of the other races.

The Leviathan have pretty solid reason to view themselves as an apex race, considering what they can do to all other organics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because the Reapers would simply fly over and Reap the galaxy before it could build up strong enough?

It's not like the Reapers are blind to the comings and goings of the galaxy, thanks to Sovereign/the Collections/their various artifacts.

So they knock out Soverign in 10 seconds, knock out the Citadel's Relay, and voila! No problem!

How do they find Sovereign? How do they knock out the Citadel Relay? And even if they do both, what keeps the Reaper armada from flying over?

Or, they need not worry about Soverign because only Harbinger was around after the first cycle and thus there was no vanguard yet.

*Citation needed.

Harbinger being the first does not mean Harbinger was the only force in the Reaper arsenal.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reapers consider it preservation. The Geth more or less agree, understanding the Reaper minds as ascended minds of the victims.

Doesn't matter how they consider it. It's not preservation. Can they go back and call up Prothean #6,345,310,132 and have a nice chat with him/her? No? Oh, then it's not.

The Reapers disprove that. A self-fulfilling prophesy they might have been, but a fulfilled prophesy none the less. The motivations of the technological singularity are less important than its effects.

That's stupid. If it's self-fullfilling because you make it so, then YOU are the problem and need to go. Not the other way around.

[Dean_the_Young]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Do you honestly think Bioware give a damn about what you say at this point? You've been on here ranting and raving like an egomaniac since the ending broke back in March. It's highly likely that you're making them laugh right now.

Ranting and raving like an egomaniac isn't enough to make anyone else laugh at her?

[Pedro Costa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They don't intend to do so.

And yet they do. They're incompetent.

The Reapers don't leave them. The Protheans hid them.

And the Reapers didn't search for them. They're complacent.

It's pretty implicit in ME1 that the Reapers were unaware of that.

Yet the Catalyst _is_ sentient and within the Citadel, yet found nothing wrong with leaving a Mass Relay-like structure hanging around the Presidium when even Kaidan could sense a humming in the area surrounding the "monument". They're stupid.
Even if the Catalyst couldn't do anything about it itself, it could've ordered the Collectors to destroy the artifact.

They also haven't been able to find the very first sentient species we know of.

They had millions upon millions of years. Humans took months at most.

It's a pretty silly failure to get hid up around, because it's been a consistent one: the Reapers are not, and never have been, omniscient.

And yet they are, by the Catalyst's design and logic, suppose to be perceived as such.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
How do they find Sovereign? How do they knock out the Citadel Relay? And even if they do both, what keeps the Reaper armada from flying over?

The artefacts. The EMP balls. Nothing, but then they can get the new thralls of this cycle to build a huge Armada.

*Citation needed.

Harbinger being the first does not mean Harbinger was the only force in the Reaper arsenal.

"Every cycle, -a- Reaper is born." (Or something extremely close)

So thus, for cycle #2, only Uno Reaper around.

[Jackums]

Lots of drama queenery and over-simplifed logic going on in this thread.

Leviathan said they controlled the lesser species. Did it say every single one of them? Did it specify the extent of their control? Did it claim it knew they had full sway over every last organic in the galaxy? It did not. But what it did state is that they considered the AI that were created as other tools. Ergo, they did not perceive them as a threat. The point at which it became apparent that the machines were a threat was likely too late to wipe them all out.

There's also the very real possibility that they simply could not exert full and constant control over every last organic in the galaxy on a 24 hour basis. If you played the DLC it would be quite apparent that Leviathan's control was limited to how long it projected its will via the artifact. So to prevent the creation of AI, the Leviathans would have to have billions of said artifacts on every single planet in every single system across the entire galaxy, and be constantly controlling every single intelligent life on every single planet in every single system across the galaxy.

OK..

Modifié par JackumsD, 29 août 2012 - 02:57 .

[spirosz]

Angry One reminds me of Saphra, it's refreshing, haha.

[RiouHotaru]

So, I got to the Catalyst conversation, He states he was created to "establish a connection". His creators just arrogantly believed they would be exempt from his solution. When in that they were apparently a major contributing factor.

So yeah, TAO's basically wrong again. The fault here lies ENTIRELY with the Leviathans.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reapers consider it preservation. The Geth more or less agree, understanding the Reaper minds as ascended minds of the victims.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter how they consider it. It's not preservation. [/quote]Ship of Theseus Paradox. No Human survives two hundred years, but we recognize an ever-replacing population group as Human survival.

[quote]
Can they go back and call up Prothean #6,345,310,132 and have a nice chat with him/her? No? Oh, then it's not.[/quote]But they may well be able to call up Leviathan #2344,342456,7457. They certainly are a gestalt of more than one.

The Reapers and Catalyst never claimed to preserve all life, so the amount of life they do preserve (and the amount they kill) is actually irrelevant.



[quote]The Reapers disprove that. A self-fulfilling prophesy they might have been, but a fulfilled prophesy none the less. The motivations of the technological singularity are less important than its effects.
[/quote]

That's stupid. If it's self-fullfilling because you make it so, then YOU are the problem and need to go. Not the other way around.

[/quote]Whether it's stupid or not, it's still true. The threat of a technological singularity is provable to exist, because it does exist in the form of the Catalyst. The Leviathans might never have intended their creation to betray them... but their intent is irrelevant compared to what they programmed.

[Ticonderoga117]

RiouHotaru wrote...

So, I got to the Catalyst conversation, He states he was created to "establish a connection". His creators just arrogantly believed they would be exempt from his solution. When in that they were apparently a major contributing factor.

So yeah, TAO's basically wrong again. The fault here lies ENTIRELY with the Leviathans.

And the Catalyst. "My mission to protect organic life and preserve it. I KNOW! Giant lasers and blenders!"

[Dean_the_Young]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They don't intend to do so.

And yet they do. They're incompetent.

Or you're inept at understanding the magnitude of the impossible.

The Reapers don't leave them. The Protheans hid them.

And the Reapers didn't search for them. They're complacent.

They did search. They simply didn't find them.

It's pretty implicit in ME1 that the Reapers were unaware of that.

Yet the Catalyst _is_ sentient and within the Citadel, yet found nothing wrong with leaving a Mass Relay-like structure hanging around the Presidium when even Kaidan could sense a humming in the area surrounding the "monument". They're stupid.

Mass Effect is filled with beings, organic and synthetic, that are not perfectly aware of their interiors. The Catyst being within the Citadel does not equate to being omniscient of all happenings within the Citadel.

Even if the Catalyst couldn't do anything about it itself, it could've ordered the Collectors to destroy the artifact.

It would have had to known and recognize the significance of it first.

They had millions upon millions of years. Humans took months at most.

Humans also had some more leads, and the better part of a costant two thousand years of data to look at rather than brief centuries every 50,000 years.

And yet they are, by the Catalyst's design and logic, suppose to be perceived as such.

Not really. They are arrogant, but have never been depicted as infallible. This comes back even in ME1.

[RiouHotaru]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

So, I got to the Catalyst conversation, He states he was created to "establish a connection". His creators just arrogantly believed they would be exempt from his solution. When in that they were apparently a major contributing factor.

So yeah, TAO's basically wrong again. The fault here lies ENTIRELY with the Leviathans.

And the Catalyst. "My mission to protect organic life and preserve it. I KNOW! Giant lasers and blenders!"

Well, he wanted to do Synthesis because that was the best long-term solution to preserve life.  But that didn't work.  So he had to do the next best thing: Reapers.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Ship of Theseus Paradox. No Human survives two hundred years, but we recognize an ever-replacing population group as Human survival.

Except Reapers aren't provable to be the gesalt mind of everyone who was put in it. Think of it as a bluebox. You can copy the data over, but with a different box, it's not the same. Maybe. We don't know, and since none of these Reapers seem to be, you know, not killey mcstomp, I doubt anything is left.

But they may well be able to call up Leviathan #2344,342456,7457. They certainly are a gestalt of more than one.

The Reapers and Catalyst never claimed to preserve all life, so the amount of life they do preserve (and the amount they kill) is actually irrelevant.

See above.

Whether it's stupid or not, it's still true. The threat of a technological singularity is provable to exist, because it does exist in the form of the Catalyst. The Leviathans might never have intended their creation to betray them... but their intent is irrelevant compared to what they programmed.

But it's not provable, because he's not an example of a tech singularity. He's an example of Over-zealous Space Police or something. If he truly was a TS, he would most likely not "care" about organics because they are very well below him. Or at least, he'd be able to figure out the difference between puree and preserving life.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
How do they find Sovereign? How do they knock out the Citadel Relay? And even if they do both, what keeps the Reaper armada from flying over?

The artefacts. The EMP balls. Nothing, but then they can get the new thralls of this cycle to build a huge Armada.

The EMP balls and artifacts aren't enough to overwhelm the Reaper armada before their thralls can build a sufficient one.

"Every cycle, -a- Reaper is born." (Or something extremely close)

So thus, for cycle #2, only Uno Reaper around.

A Reaper isn't the only form of weapon available to the Reapers. They could also have kept the armies they smashed the Leviathans with.

It's rather apparent the Leviathans weren't taken down by Harbinger alone. The Catalyst had other means it could provide to overthrow them.

[Blacklash93]

On the bright side the Catalyst did nearly wipe out a race of branwashing space-Cthulhus who used their abilities to enslave the entire galaxy for perpetual labor and religious tribute therefore ending their rule. Gotta give it credit for that even among the heaps of shoddy writing and bad characterization.

Essentially the Catalyst gave most free will back to organics and made a cycle that could be broken far more easily. Inadvertently and its logic/practices are still insane and cruel granted, but still.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The EMP balls and artifacts aren't enough to overwhelm the Reaper armada before their thralls can build a sufficient one.

Don't need it for the Reapers, use on the Citadel and completely fry the thing.

A Reaper isn't the only form of weapon available to the Reapers. They could also have kept the armies they smashed the Leviathans with.

It's rather apparent the Leviathans weren't taken down by Harbinger alone. The Catalyst had other means it could provide to overthrow them.

What armies? Those husk troops they leave to die? Ok then, wait a few hundred years, they got time.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You do realize that the intent of this DLC was to make them fallible? That this was stated?

That they don't always kill everything?

****ing A people.

EDI says this point-blank on the Normandy post-Leviathan. Fallible, even in the long-term. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Ship of Theseus Paradox. No Human survives two hundred years, but we recognize an ever-replacing population group as Human survival.

Except Reapers aren't provable to be the gesalt mind of everyone who was put in it. Think of it as a bluebox. You can copy the data over, but with a different box, it's not the same. Maybe. We don't know, and since none of these Reapers seem to be, you know, not killey mcstomp, I doubt anything is left.

Legion in ME2 already establishes that they are gestalts of the species that compose them.

But it's not provable, because he's not an example of a tech singularity. He's an example of Over-zealous Space Police or something.

The Reapers are a technological singularity... to us. Since a
singularity is always a relative evaluation, that's more than enough to
go on. Whether the Leviathan could understand it is unknown, but the
Catalyst certainly was something that advanced faster than them.

If he truly was a TS, he would most likely not "care" about organics because they are very well below him.

That's a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Or at least, he'd be able to figure out the difference between puree and preserving life.

And that's a stance of subjective definition. Just because you don't consider that a form of preservation doesn't mean other's can't.\\



And with that, I'm off to sleep for the night.

[ShepnTali]

Grab some popcorn and look at it as a mindless action flick at this point. That's what we're left with. Lemons to lemonade.

Modifié par ShepnTali, 29 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The EMP balls and artifacts aren't enough to overwhelm the Reaper armada before their thralls can build a sufficient one.

Don't need it for the Reapers, use on the Citadel and completely fry the thing.

Which leaves the Reaper armada.

What armies? Those husk troops they leave to die? Ok then, wait a few hundred years, they got time.

Try to think this through with half a mind.

If the Catalyst was going to create a Cycle, it was going to keep the forces necessary to re-establish the cycle. Until such a time that there were enough Reapers to simply have a pure-Reaper force, the interim galactic invasion force could have been whatever the Catalyst cared to keep around.

If those were husks, they don't have to leave them to die. If those were synthetics, they can keep armies and means of production ready. If they were clone armies, they could leave a dozen or a thousand or billions of Collector Bases wherever they wanted, in order to provide the army when and as desired.

Once the Catalyst overthrew the First Cycle, it has all the time and resources to prepare for the Second. It isn't limited to just Harbinger.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 août 2012 - 03:12 .

[Pedro Costa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Or you're inept at understanding the magnitude of the impossible.

Ah, I'm stupid. Gotcha.
No, really, wonderful argument.

They did search. They simply didn't find them.

So, they're incompetent on their mission of leaving a clean slate and therefore leave open the chance for an AI that they missed to bring about the destruction of all organic life while they're resting in Dark Space.

It would have had to known and recognize the significance of it first.

Yes, I'm sure a Mass Relay emitting some sort of signal and looking like a freaking mass relay built by an extremely advanced race wouldn't raise any suspicion. How the Keepers even let it slide long enough to be reprogrammed leaves me puzzled, when they quickly removed Sovereign's remains and repaired the Citadel after ME1.

Humans also had some more leads, and the better part of a costant two thousand years of data to look at rather than brief centuries every 50,000 years.

I'm sorry, but... are you serious? Are you arguing that a species who has only been in the galactic community for a few decades and who had only a few months to figure out the Leviathan's location is smarter, more resourceful and all around better than beings who have been outwitting and wiping out a galaxy's worth of intellect every 50000 years?
Or is this the part where I throw the "you're stupid" argument right back at you?

Not really. They are arrogant, but have never been depicted as infallible. This comes back even in ME1.

By the Catalyst's logic, the must be infallible, otherwise, what's the point? If they let VIs slide, blueprints slide and a whole species slide, they most certainly could have left an AI slide and that AI could have destroyed what the Catalyst was suppose to protect, rendering the Reapers completely useless.

There's only so much stupidity you can take before it reaches critical levels, and for me, this is it.

[AlanC9]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

 It just so happens that we were right, and you weren't - again - kind of like how you weren't right about the galaxy ending, weren't right about the entire fleet being stranded, weren't right about everyone starving, and weren't right about everyone on the mystery world being permanently stranded and having inbred descendants.

I am going to grab this portion of your post because I can predict the rebuttal. Before you attempt to mention they posted on Twitter and a little on this forum we simply misinterpreted their intend. Find me a novel, film or frankly even another video game who resorts to a social media app to explain a crucial aspect of its plot.

What actually happened is BioWare wrote themselves into a corner and realized they were screwed once people had connected the dots, thus the EC retcon.

Huh? It's the faction that believes the original endings meant Galactic Doom which relies on Twitter. AtreiyaN7 was just looking at what was actually on screen, which wasn't that bad.