509 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Legion in ME2 already establishes that they are gestalts of the species that compose them.

But are they actually just personalities or just the memories acting together? There's a large difference.

The Reapers are a technological singularity... to us. Since a
singularity is always a relative evaluation, that's more than enough to
go on. Whether the Leviathan could understand it is unknown, but the
Catalyst certainly was something that advanced faster than them.

How is it clear? Perhaps they were truly moronic and didn't put in a safety for god knows whatever reason? Or maybe that wonderful logic issue movies love to use came to pass? He doesn't seem to be that advanced. Hell, he just knows a lot, like a savant.

And that's a stance of subjective definition. Just because you don't consider that a form of preservation doesn't mean other's can't.

But it's literally preserving nothing but memories. if I wanted to preserve Native Americans, I wouldn't melt them down and then turn them into paper that I then write history on. No. No. No.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Blacklash93 wrote...

On the bright side the Catalyst did nearly wipe out a race of branwashing space-Cthulhus who used their abilities to enslave the entire galaxy for perpetual labor and religious tribute therefore ending their rule. Gotta give it credit for that even among the heaps of shoddy writing and bad characterization.

Essentially the Catalyst gave most free will back to organics and made a cycle that could be broken far more easily. Inadvertently and its logic/practices are still insane and cruel granted, but still.

With that in consideration, I almost want to thank the Catalyst, because those guys are clearly far more dangerous at their height than the Reapers could ever be. Anyone else have a strong feeling the Leviathans will pop up in ME4? The one that Shepard speaks to mentions that it's a progeny of the Leviathan race, which suggest that the buggers have been breeding. They've also spent most of their time in hiding, so it's very possible that they could begin rebuilding their civilization once the Reaper threat is removed, though I find it unlikely.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 29 août 2012 - 03:20 .

[AresKeith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

 It just so happens that we were right, and you weren't - again - kind of like how you weren't right about the galaxy ending, weren't right about the entire fleet being stranded, weren't right about everyone starving, and weren't right about everyone on the mystery world being permanently stranded and having inbred descendants.

I am going to grab this portion of your post because I can predict the rebuttal. Before you attempt to mention they posted on Twitter and a little on this forum we simply misinterpreted their intend. Find me a novel, film or frankly even another video game who resorts to a social media app to explain a crucial aspect of its plot.

What actually happened is BioWare wrote themselves into a corner and realized they were screwed once people had connected the dots, thus the EC retcon.

Huh? It's the faction that believes the original endings meant Galactic Doom which relies on Twitter. AtreiyaN7 was just looking at what was actually on screen, which wasn't that bad.

we told you already that Mac stated that the original endings were meant to be a wasteland because the Relays got destoryed

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which leaves the Reaper armada.

"Hey! Thralls! Start building stuff! We have 3 years to get ready. Should be simple since we will be literally telling you everything you need to know."

Try to think this through with half a mind.

If the Catalyst was going to create a Cycle, it was going to keep the forces necessary to re-establish the cycle. Until such a time that there were enough Reapers to simply have a pure-Reaper force, the interim galactic invasion force could have been whatever the Catalyst cared to keep around.

If those were husks, they don't have to leave them to die. If those were synthetics, they can keep armies and means of production ready. If they were clone armies, they could leave a dozen or a thousand or billions of Collector Bases wherever they wanted, in order to provide the army when and as desired.

Once the Catalyst overthrew the First Cycle, it has all the time and resources to prepare for the Second. It isn't limited to just Harbinger.

Why would he need an army though? Strike early enough and the specieses will only be in the Industrial Age versus Space Cthulu.

[Bourne Endeavor]

AlanC9 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

 It just so happens that we were right, and you weren't - again - kind of like how you weren't right about the galaxy ending, weren't right about the entire fleet being stranded, weren't right about everyone starving, and weren't right about everyone on the mystery world being permanently stranded and having inbred descendants.

I am going to grab this portion of your post because I can predict the rebuttal. Before you attempt to mention they posted on Twitter and a little on this forum we simply misinterpreted their intend. Find me a novel, film or frankly even another video game who resorts to a social media app to explain a crucial aspect of its plot.

What actually happened is BioWare wrote themselves into a corner and realized they were screwed once people had connected the dots, thus the EC retcon.

Huh? It's the faction that believes the original endings meant Galactic Doom which relies on Twitter. AtreiyaN7 was just looking at what was actually on screen, which wasn't that bad.

No, in the original endings the Mass Relays explode, which Arrival has shown causes a supernov-esque explosion, thus wiping out all existence in the system. If we ignore that hiccup they still were stranded. BioWare tweeted this wasn't true and they never anticipated people would come to those conclusions. Therefore, my point was I do not accept plot points from a twitter. Evidently, BioWare realized it was an issue because they retconned it.

[AlanC9]

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

[SkullStrife]

The Angry One wrote...



Actually now it's more like:




Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached cluster**** singularity.

I totally agree with this picture.... on a side note as I said on another thread the endings are now even worse! If you choose destroy it goes like this

Bioware: if you choose destroy the Leviathans will enslave you all just like the good old times... you can´t choose destroy now can you? Muajajaja!

Me: I wont buy this DLC so I can still choose Destroy ¬¬ problem?

now... if you choose Synthesis your problems aren´t fixed...
Reaprs are huskified Leviathans... with synthesis Leviathan will have green eyes and all the knowledge like any other species

But the difference is that ALL the leviathans consider themselves as living gods and had the power to control every other species with their mind... so now they will be even more powerful (after synthesis) we are all screwed because  they will have the power to control minds of the synthesised beings (all the organics and ALL the machines...) they will be overlords/gods controlling every other species, machines and organic the division does not exist anymore so the mind control power of the Leviathans will be without limits... we are so, so, soooooo enslaved... thanks BW

[SkullStrife]

adding to the logic it would be like this

"Yo dawg I heard you wanted to avoid the possible synthetic rebellion to protect organics, so I created a super synthetic AI that rebelled against me, killed me and transformed me into a big synthetic weapon of destruction that kills every organic I wanted to protect every 50k years, (under the command of this synthetic AI), so I can prevent organics from creating synthetics that could rebel every cycle...."

[AresKeith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

the fact that Mac said and he's the lead writer who wrote the ending kinda proves that intended to do that. It was even in the final hours, but they Retconned the Relays going supernova because that would been just as bad. But apparently you don't wanna accept the Mac originally intended it.

[NoUserNameHere]

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

Eh? Everything that made post-war civilization anything more than a wasteland was an extended cut retcon.

Wiping out all of the galaxy may've been a stretch -- aside from the lowest EMS ending. But since the 
Last destroyed relay took out a system the implication was there.

The Normandy was totaled. You saw that on screen. The relays were toast. Nobody was leaving the Orion arm of the galaxy in less than an Asari lifetime. That's simple logistics. If this is not true, why'd they have to retcon it all?

[Kenshen]

The Angry One wrote...
So yes, Leviathan. It seems that BioWare has been paying attention to the Catalyst apologists of late, in their latest attempt to defend it's actions.
Too bad that by doing so, they've made the Catalyst a liar (again), crazy or possibly both. It's especially hilarious when the Catalyst claims it was designed to make peace with synthetics, immediately admits that Leviathan's explanation (that it was designed to preserve life at all costs) is true, then repeats it's original claim shortly after.
Hey, BioWare. Either you intentionally made the Catalyst a lunatic, or you don't realise that these two things aren't the same!

Normally I agree with your posts but this part is just wrong.  The catalyst was created to find a way to save organics not make peace with synthetics.  While the solution could have brought peace, after extentive data collection it deemed the only way to save organics was to harvest them into reaper form and repeat the process.  Yeah the logic is flawed but that is on the Levithans.  They were to arrogant and gave the catalyst general conditions to be met and it didn't turn out well for them.  From the catalyst point of view it did what it was programed to do and is still doing it.

[AlanC9]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

No, in the original endings the Mass Relays explode, which Arrival has shown causes a supernov-esque explosion, thus wiping out all existence in the system. If we ignore that hiccup they still were stranded. BioWare tweeted this wasn't true and they never anticipated people would come to those conclusions. Therefore, my point was I do not accept plot points from a twitter. Evidently, BioWare realized it was an issue because they retconned it.

The Citadel blows and doesn't destroy Earth. Normandy crashes on an intact planet. So the only two planets we see where relays blow aren't destroyed. You really figured that those two were just magic exceptions?

Crashing an asteroid into a relay causes an uncontrolled release of energy. Using the Crucible on a relay does not; the energy is tapped and used to perform work. Highly specific work.

As for stranded, unless you want to headcanon that Normandy went on some complicated multiple-relay journey before the relays blew, they're somewhere within the Charon relay's range. That's not more than a few weeks travel.

Bio tweeted that you had a bad interpretation because you did have a bad interpretation.

[Urdnot Amenark]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

Eh? Everything that made post-war civilization anything more than a wasteland was an extended cut retcon.

Wiping out all of the galaxy may've been a stretch -- aside from the lowest EMS ending. But since the 
Last destroyed relay took out a system the implication was there.

The Normandy was totaled. You saw that on screen. The relays were toast. Nobody was leaving the Orion arm of the galaxy in less than an Asari lifetime. That's simple logistics. If this is not true, why'd they have to retcon it all?

I think that was more of a massive oversight and contradiction of lore in terms of what we learned from Arrival, which in itself was a retcon re: the ME3 ending. I see the EC changing that to the ME Relays being damaged rather than destroyed as a correction of that mistake. 

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 29 août 2012 - 03:39 .

[RiouHotaru]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Leviathans are the reason any of this is happening? It's entirely THEIR FAULT.

[AlanC9]

AresKeith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

the fact that Mac said and he's the lead writer who wrote the ending kinda proves that intended to do that. It was even in the final hours, but they Retconned the Relays going supernova because that would been just as bad. But apparently you don't wanna accept the Mac originally intended it.

Again, if the relays caused supernovas the Normandy's got no place to crash. Not only didn't it happen, you saw it not happen.

Maybe Mac meant to destroy the galaxy. But he didn't actually succeed in showing that.

[Urdnot Amenark]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Leviathans are the reason any of this is happening? It's entirely THEIR FAULT.

You have breached the darkness. You do not belong here.

[3DandBeyond]

AlRPG wrote...

If they could control the "lesser" species. Couldn't they just stop them from building the dangerous AI?

They have them in their thrall, so I think they could stop it.  Exactly how big are the Leviathan's brains-the size of a pea.  It's sort of sad watching it, when Shepard foolishly thinks these things can and will help at all.

[AresKeith]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

Eh? Everything that made post-war civilization anything more than a wasteland was an extended cut retcon.

Wiping out all of the galaxy may've been a stretch -- aside from the lowest EMS ending. But since the 
Last destroyed relay took out a system the implication was there.

The Normandy was totaled. You saw that on screen. The relays were toast. Nobody was leaving the Orion arm of the galaxy in less than an Asari lifetime. That's simple logistics. If this is not true, why'd they have to retcon it all?

I think that was more of a massive oversight and contradiction of lore in terms of what we learned from Arrival, which in itself was a retcon re: the ME3 ending. I see the EC changing that to the ME Relays being damaged rather than destroyed as a correction of that mistake. 

the relays being damage is also a retcon, because the lore of the Relays was that if there destroyed or damaged they'll go Supernova

[Urdnot Amenark]

AresKeith wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

Eh? Everything that made post-war civilization anything more than a wasteland was an extended cut retcon.

Wiping out all of the galaxy may've been a stretch -- aside from the lowest EMS ending. But since the 
Last destroyed relay took out a system the implication was there.

The Normandy was totaled. You saw that on screen. The relays were toast. Nobody was leaving the Orion arm of the galaxy in less than an Asari lifetime. That's simple logistics. If this is not true, why'd they have to retcon it all?

I think that was more of a massive oversight and contradiction of lore in terms of what we learned from Arrival, which in itself was a retcon re: the ME3 ending. I see the EC changing that to the ME Relays being damaged rather than destroyed as a correction of that mistake. 

the relays being damage is also a retcon, because the lore of the Relays was that if there destroyed or damaged they'll go Supernova

No, the energy released when a relay is destroyed - what Kenson describes - is what's equal to a supernova. Nothing about how they would behave if only partially damaged is mentioned, so it isn't really a retcon so much as an implied assumption some have made. 

[Conniving_Eagle]

The Mass Relays are defunct in Destroy. They weren't obliterated because that would turn the galaxy into a wasteland. But they're not coming back for all the same, atleast for a couple thousand years. That's the whole downside of Destroy, not losing the Geth or EDI.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

the fact that Mac said and he's the lead writer who wrote the ending kinda proves that intended to do that. It was even in the final hours, but they Retconned the Relays going supernova because that would been just as bad. But apparently you don't wanna accept the Mac originally intended it.

Again, if the relays caused supernovas the Normandy's got no place to crash. Not only didn't it happen, you saw it not happen.

Maybe Mac meant to destroy the galaxy. But he didn't actually succeed in showing that.

That just means they screwed up which is not a good thing, but you keep defending that.  That's exactly part of the reason why people thought the original endings were totally crazy-there shouldn't have been anything much left of the galaxy.  The torso gasping and the Normandy crashing was part of what was so insane.  It's not something to defend any more than the idea of Harbinger allowing Shepard and friends to say their fond farewells in front of him at the conduit in the EC.

[AresKeith]

AlanC9 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Exactly so, AresKeith. Like I said, it's your faction that needs Twitter (or wherever Mac said that) to make your case. The actual game doesn't show a wasteland. All it shows is interstellar travel being reduced to Star Trek speeds.

the fact that Mac said and he's the lead writer who wrote the ending kinda proves that intended to do that. It was even in the final hours, but they Retconned the Relays going supernova because that would been just as bad. But apparently you don't wanna accept the Mac originally intended it.

Again, if the relays caused supernovas the Normandy's got no place to crash. Not only didn't it happen, you saw it not happen.

Maybe Mac meant to destroy the galaxy. But he didn't actually succeed in showing that.

 thats because Mac screwed up with the original endings, and he had to fix and retcon the relays to badly damaged which also causes a Relay to go Supernova, but they thought some of us wouldn't catch that

[3DandBeyond]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Mass Relays are defunct in Destroy. They weren't obliterated because that would turn the galaxy into a wasteland. But they're not coming back for all the same, atleast for a couple thousand years. That's the whole downside of Destroy, not losing the Geth or EDI.

I didn't see Leviathan's effect on the ending-is that now part of it?  Because in the EC destroy the kid says tech is damaged but easily repaired.  Unless that's why you now get extra dextro food in Leviathan so the Quarians and Turians won't starve on the trip home-ha ha.

[Taboo]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Mass Relays are defunct in Destroy. They weren't obliterated because that would turn the galaxy into a wasteland. But they're not coming back for all the same, atleast for a couple thousand years. That's the whole downside of Destroy, not losing the Geth or EDI.

The slides show that to be untrue to the nth degree.

As in go back and look.

[AlanC9]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

The Normandy was totaled. You saw that on screen. The relays were toast. Nobody was leaving the Orion arm of the galaxy in less than an Asari lifetime. That's simple logistics. If this is not true, why'd they have to retcon it all?

Honestly, I would have preferred they left it as it was. Like I said, Normandy's almost certainly fairly close to Sol. So what if the fleets don't get to go home and have to found new colonies? The quarian liveships can keep themselves and the turians fed until they find a dextro planet someplace.