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[DPSSOC]

SerTabris wrote...

There's also the case where Hawke is a mage herself. A bit of trouble getting angry at mages then. I would think most people would avoid hasty generalizations when the group includes themselves.

The funny thing is my mage Hawkes are actually the most anti-mage of any playthrough.  He's got himself, Malcolm, and Bethany as examples of mages who can live free without being a danger to anyone, they deserve freedom because they show they can handle it, but the mages of Kirkwall constantly reinforce that they don't deserve it and shouldn't have it.  He disapproves of them because he knows they can be better than they are (ie not evil/crazy) they just clearly don't want to.

My first playthrough I went anti-mage after Quentin but it was a case of the straw that broke the camels back more than anything.  Mages hadn't been painting a very flattering picture of themselves up until that point and they just  burned through all the slack I was willing to give them. 

[Ozzy]

No, I felt no emotional attachment at all. It was just so over the top.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Yes, I used the event of Leandra's death as a turning point for a number of my Hawkes.

My personal favourite was in fact my first character. She was a charming, diplomatic mage with a bubbly personality and naive views of the world. Through-out Act1 she was supporting her mage brothers and sisters, she had lived freely so she didn't understand why other mages couldn't. She even agreed with Merrill to begin with, Blood Magic wasn't inherently evil, it was just often misused.

Progressing through Act2 she began to change. She began turning Merrill away from Blood Magic and the Mirror. Began thinking perhaps the Circle was necessary to house the crazy blood mages that were roaming around the outskirts of Kirkwall, though she still supported the freedom of those who had good intentions, like Feynriel.

She had lost Carver in the Deep Roads and Fenris, who was her romance choice, had left her. Leandra was the only thing she had left at that point. When she first died, Hawke had settled into depression and self-loathing, blaming herself instead of anyone else. Then she found Gascard Dupuis in Darktown and flipped her lid. Slaughtered him and became completely closed off to the pleas of mages from that point on.

When it came down to The Last Straw, she had witnessed enough madness and destruction at the hands of mages that she couldn't in good conscience defend them. So she sided with the Templars and cleared the city. A complete 180 in belief and personality, progressing naturally through the entire game.

I like giving my characters as much progression through the game as possible, and Leandra's death is usually a land-mark for some major change. I find it to be one of the best opportunities for a great shift in belief or personality.

[Xilizhra]

The funny thing is my mage Hawkes are actually the most anti-mage of any playthrough. He's got himself, Malcolm, and Bethany as examples of mages who can live free without being a danger to anyone, they deserve freedom because they show they can handle it, but the mages of Kirkwall constantly reinforce that they don't deserve it and shouldn't have it. He disapproves of them because he knows they can be better than they are (ie not evil/crazy) they just clearly don't want to.

Almost every mage in Kirkwall would be fine without Meredith's reign of terror, really.

Also, Sylvanpixie, your Hawke should really have turned herself in in that case.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Nope. My Hawke actually used it as a point to reinforce his pro-mage beliefs. From that point on whenever anyone tried to tell him a horror story about something a mage did he could just shrug it off. He'd seen the very worst of what magic could do and he still didn't consider it an exccuse for imprisoning the innocent mages.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Also, Sylvanpixie, your Hawke should really have turned herself in in that case.

I know, she was a giant hypocrite. One of the reasons I enjoyed playing her.

[ray.mitch7410]

BrotherWarth wrote...
Obviously I'm not talking about all possible incarnations of Hawke. A mage Hawke likely wouldn't hate him/herself, but rogue or warrior Hawkes? It's pretty hard to retain polite perspective in the face of monstrous tragedy.

Not every victim family of 9/11 thinks that every single muslim is a terrorist. So... it's totally possible for a rogue or warrior Hawke to have a logical mindset and realize only that madman was to blame.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

The funny thing is my mage Hawkes are actually the most anti-mage of any playthrough. He's got himself, Malcolm, and Bethany as examples of mages who can live free without being a danger to anyone, they deserve freedom because they show they can handle it, but the mages of Kirkwall constantly reinforce that they don't deserve it and shouldn't have it. He disapproves of them because he knows they can be better than they are (ie not evil/crazy) they just clearly don't want to.

Almost every mage in Kirkwall would be fine without Meredith's reign of terror, really.

Idunna, Tarohne, and Decimus never dealt with Meredith's reign of terror and they were far from fine.  Also the reign of terror explanation still fails to account for almost every mage doing this, "We're free what do we do now?"  "KILL EVERYONE!!!"

[Xilizhra]

Meredith's reign of terror isn't really all that much different from those of other Circles, assuming that Lambert is considered an example for Knight-Commanders to follow.

Additionally, most mages don't do anything except defend themselves when forced to. The dangerous ones, like the dangerous mundanes, are exceptions.

[DPSSOC]

Isn't it directly stated that Meredith is considered extreme in her actions? I know one of the escaped Starkhaven mages mentions they've heard Kirkwall is much worse. Could be wrong of course.

As for mages just defending themselves what about that gang of blood mages in Act 3? Or the three I mentioned, or Grace and the mages who side with her in Best Served Cold, or Quentin? I don't deny there are decent mages but Hawke never gets to meet them. In terms of Circle mages Hawke meets 2 who can be considered half decent human beings; Ella and Alain. You can't say the dangerous mages are a minority when they constitute the majority of mages we see.

[Melca36]

Nope! Never will.

[Arthur Cousland]

If I am doing a pro-mage or pro-templar playthrough, I start that from the beginning and try to remain consistent throughout the game.

As for Quentin, I blame him for his actions and not all mages.  I don't believe that all mages should have to pay for the actions of a few.  Especially with Hawke being from a family where their father and sister are mages, I can't bring myself to go anti-mage.  The crazy mages deserve to be put in their place, but that's where my mage killing ends.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Isn't it directly stated that Meredith is considered extreme in her actions? I know one of the escaped Starkhaven mages mentions they've heard Kirkwall is much worse. Could be wrong of course.

As for mages just defending themselves what about that gang of blood mages in Act 3? Or the three I mentioned, or Grace and the mages who side with her in Best Served Cold, or Quentin? I don't deny there are decent mages but Hawke never gets to meet them. In terms of Circle mages Hawke meets 2 who can be considered half decent human beings; Ella and Alain. You can't say the dangerous mages are a minority when they constitute the majority of mages we see.

The Crimson Weavers have like seven or eight mages total; the vast majority of the gang is thralls. Most of Grace's mages were just those trying to make a better life for themselves; the only ones you could totally count out were the handful who tried to kill you during the final battle. Most of the mages in said group are probably decent, as are all the ones we see in the Gallows... so, yes, I'll say they're a minority.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Crimson Weavers have like seven or eight mages total; the vast majority of the gang is thralls. Most of Grace's mages were just those trying to make a better life for themselves; the only ones you could totally count out were the handful who tried to kill you during the final battle.

 
That "handful" you mention consists of all but one and there were at least half a dozen at the final battle.  I won't count the groups that attacked before that because that was a misunderstanding.  If I did we'd be between one and two dozen.

Xilizhra wrote...
Most of the mages in said group are probably decent,

 
Again all but one tried to kill you for no other reason than an obviously crazy person said, "Hey kill that person."

Xilizhra wrote...
as are all the ones we see in the Gallows... so, yes, I'll say they're a minority.

Probably yes but since we never see any of them acting decent it's entirely speculative.  Not being an evil lunatic doesn't immediately make you decent.  Is a man decent if he's only such because he's forced to be?  We can only judge mages on their demonstrated behaviour (what we've seen them do) and we've only seen 2 Circle Mages (5 in total not counting Hawke) acting decent.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

That "handful" you mention consists of all but one and there were at least half a dozen at the final battle. I won't count the groups that attacked before that because that was a misunderstanding. If I did we'd be between one and two dozen.

Actually not all of the Mages fought you in that final instance. Cullen will tell you that the Mages -- plural -- they apprehended were isolated/quarantined after the incident.

[Quething]

To be perfectly honest, the first time it even occurred to me that that was meant to be a possible reaction for Hawke was on these forums, at least a week after finishing the game. I suppose it's marginally more explicit if you romance Anders or Merrill and therefore have the dialog options that berate them for magic and draw the parallel (I had Isabela show up, and she's blessedly indifferent to Kirkwall's mage-templar idiocy), but man, the amount of no sense whatsoever it makes to me for any Hawke at all to take Quentin as ~proof that mages must be corralled~ is awe-inspiring.

I mean. Really. One lunatic you meet once versus Malcolm, Bethany, Merrill and Anders, two of whom may be kind of idiots but who nevertheless have never hurt you and in fact repeatedly save your life, back you up, visit your house, talk to your pets and generally act like normal, not-matricidal lunatics for six to twenty years of your life, depending. How exactly is that supposed to meaningfully shape Hawke's perception of mages?

[Fallstar]

Quentin was a psycho, him being a mage didn't have anything to do with that.

Not that he was particularly unusual; the vast majority of people you meet in DA2 are utterly incapable of basic reasoning.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
That "handful" you mention consists of all but one and there were at least half a dozen at the final battle. I won't count the groups that attacked before that because that was a misunderstanding. If I did we'd be between one and two dozen.

Actually not all of the Mages fought you in that final instance. Cullen will tell you that the Mages -- plural -- they apprehended were isolated/quarantined after the incident.

Hmm don't remember that line, all I remember is a lack of bystanders durring the fight (unlike the Decimus fight where you can see some mages just standing there).

Quething wrote...
but man, the amount of no sense whatsoever it makes to me for any Hawke at all to take Quentin as ~proof that mages must be corralled~ is awe-inspiring.

I mean. Really. One lunatic you meet once versus

 
To be fair Quentin isn't just one lunatic, he's the latest in a long line of lunatics.  Like I said earlier when I do play Hawke that way Quentin's just the last push that makes him say to hell with it.  Of course had I been given the option he would have said to hell with all of Kirkwall.

Quething wrote...
How exactly is that supposed to meaningfully shape Hawke's perception of mages?

Because he murders your mother, potentially the only real family you have left, and cuts her up to make a sex doll?

[Xilizhra]

Hmm don't remember that line, all I remember is a lack of bystanders durring the fight (unlike the Decimus fight where you can see some mages just standing there).

Then you're misremembering. There are a fair few bystanders.

That "handful" you mention consists of all but one and there were at least half a dozen at the final battle. I won't count the groups that attacked before that because that was a misunderstanding. If I did we'd be between one and two dozen.

I think there were only three or four who attacked.

Probably yes but since we never see any of them acting decent it's entirely speculative. Not being an evil lunatic doesn't immediately make you decent. Is a man decent if he's only such because he's forced to be? We can only judge mages on their demonstrated behaviour (what we've seen them do) and we've only seen 2 Circle Mages (5 in total not counting Hawke) acting decent.

Bethany, Merrill and Anders are all decent. Karl seems to have been. Ella is. Tabrie is. Grace was, before she was possessed. Alain is. Feynriel is. That one you rescue from bounty hunters seems to be. Olivia didn't seem to have much wrong with her, aside from possession.

[Nefla]

DA2 doesn't make me feel passionate like that. I would usually play anti-mage if I was a mage because I liked making friendship!Carver a templar.

[Wulfram]

I took that path once, basically so I could try the Templar ending.

Though it has the problem of screwing up your Friendship/Rivalry status with people.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Probably yes but since we never see any of them acting decent it's entirely speculative. Not being an evil lunatic doesn't immediately make you decent. Is a man decent if he's only such because he's forced to be? We can only judge mages on their demonstrated behaviour (what we've seen them do) and we've only seen 2 Circle Mages (5 in total not counting Hawke) acting decent.

Bethany, Merrill and Anders are all decent.

 
Neither of which are mages of Kirkwall.

Xilizhra wrote...
Karl seems to have been. Ella is. Tabrie is.

Karl based on what?  Forgot about Tabrie so we're up to 3.
 

Xilizhra wrote...
Grace was, before she was possessed.

 
You mean Grace who asked you to murder a man in cold blood so that she and her friends, who's leader just raised the dead to kill you, can run off on her word?  Oh yeah stand up gal that Grace.  Grace was a horrible person when you met her in Act 1, and she's a horrible crazy person when you meet her in Act 3.

Xilizhra wrote...
Alain is. Feynriel is.

 
I tend not to count Feynriel because he can go either way but fine that's four, we still have the majority of mages being horrible.

Xilizhra wrote...
That one you rescue from bounty hunters seems to be. Olivia didn't seem to have much wrong with her, aside from possession.

Again you're making conclusions based on what's not seen.  You don't know anything about Olivia, other than she got possessed.  The problem is she might have been a blood mage for all we know, she might have enthralled her father to get him to keep her from the Circle, we don't know and we can't prove it.  Since we can't determine their character, one way or another, we have to disregard them for the sake of making judgements.  You may be right and all the mages we don't see are innocent little saints who fart rainbows but we can't know so we can't make decisions around that.

And keep in mind that I judge all of Kirkwall by the same measure, if given the option I'd have told the Qunari to burn the city to the ground or done it myself.  We just don't meet enough decent people to offset the lunatics, murderers, slavers, thieves, and just downright evil bastards we run into.

[Xilizhra]

Neither of which are mages of Kirkwall.

If you want to play that game, Decimus, Grace, Quentin and Gascard are also all not mages of Kirkwall; the former three are all from Starkhaven, and Gascard is Orlesian. Not that Gascard ever does anything evil assuming you have a diplomatic personality... the only only mage native to Kirkwall whom I can think of is provably outright malevolent is Tahrone, and maybe the Crimson Weavers leader. Idunna crumbles like a dry twig, so I don't count her for much.

You mean Grace who asked you to murder a man in cold blood so that she and her friends, who's leader just raised the dead to kill you, can run off on her word? Oh yeah stand up gal that Grace. Grace was a horrible person when you met her in Act 1, and she's a horrible crazy person when you meet her in Act 3.

He's a templar. She may as well have asked you to kill an SS officer; how was she to know that he was a traitor in the making? It's not even in cold blood; he was tracking her and intended to kidnap her and her compatriots.

Again you're making conclusions based on what's not seen. You don't know anything about Olivia, other than she got possessed. The problem is she might have been a blood mage for all we know, she might have enthralled her father to get him to keep her from the Circle, we don't know and we can't prove it. Since we can't determine their character, one way or another, we have to disregard them for the sake of making judgements. You may be right and all the mages we don't see are innocent little saints who fart rainbows but we can't know so we can't make decisions around that.

You, in turn, cannot make assumptions based on them being evil. I make my judgment based on the fact that the Templar Order is a malevolent tumor on Thedas' face, and that no one deserves to be slaughtered out of hand.

[brushyourteeth]

DPSSOC wrote...

SerTabris wrote...

There's also the case where Hawke is a mage herself. A bit of trouble getting angry at mages then. I would think most people would avoid hasty generalizations when the group includes themselves.

The funny thing is my mage Hawkes are actually the most anti-mage of any playthrough.  He's got himself, Malcolm, and Bethany as examples of mages who can live free without being a danger to anyone, they deserve freedom because they show they can handle it, but the mages of Kirkwall constantly reinforce that they don't deserve it and shouldn't have it.  He disapproves of them because he knows they can be better than they are (ie not evil/crazy) they just clearly don't want to.

My first playthrough I went anti-mage after Quentin but it was a case of the straw that broke the camels back more than anything.  Mages hadn't been painting a very flattering picture of themselves up until that point and they just  burned through all the slack I was willing to give them. 

This so much - I did this on one of my most interesting playthroughs, although Quentin didn't really spoil it for the mages, Anders did. Quentin's actions only reinforced to my mage Hawke the evils of blood magic, not the insanity of mages as a group of people. After Anders' petulant attempt at getting the Chantry's attention, she became convinced that the best way to ensure mage freedom and safety was to fight to preserve the Circle system as a responsible mage.