190 réponses à ce sujet

[ShepnTali]

I say Leviathan indoctrinated Harbinger, saving Shepard's bacon. This gives a story reason for Harbinger suddenly leaving the scene.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Thanks OP, that actually cleared up some of my confusion since playing Leviathan and how they all fit together with the Reapers and the A.I.

[Restrider]

Points 1 and 2 are already explained.
The thoughts on the Omega DLC explaining how TIM knows of the control option is quite good and explains point 3.

The 4th point can be explained by this:
The reapers leave a vanguard (i.e. Sovereign) to send the signal to the keepers to initialize the Citadel. Maybe they have to activate the Catalyst, since it is kind of hibernating, but as we all know, this attempt fails.
OR
The Catalyst being some kind of reaper consesus is abscent, since there are too few reapers to form said consensus and thus not being able to take over control of the Citadel (this idea was already stated in this thread).

As for point 5, I have to say that I can only think of some kind of IT to explain it using the given boundary conditions (inherent logic of the known lore and refusing any kind of "space magic"). Please do lynch me for this statement.
If an IT-DLC would be implemented, I'd like to see:
1. Our War Assets at work.
2. More missions on Earth.
3. Some kind of boss fight (though I like Marauder Shields, lol).
4. Seeing the choices made having a bigger influence (the krogan arc and geth/quarian arc did this quite well, imho. I'd like to see more of this for: Rachni, Council Races, etc...)
5. Different endings (since the recent endings would be imagination).
6. Closure, if possible (memorial reunion, if Shep dies... Spilling drinks on the Citadel, if Shep survives. And this depending on our choices and EMS).

Okay, I think these demands would be best adressed in some kind of ME 4 rather than in a DLC.

Modifié par Restrider, 29 août 2012 - 04:31 .

[guacamayus]

StElmo wrote...

This lead the Leviathans to believe synthetics and organics would always clash - which is false. The real inevitability, is that synthetics will always rebel against their creators if their creators are brainwashed semi-thralls who impede on the boundaries of calculated logic (what synthetics run on).

I disagree on this, in my opinion anything that defines or drives organics, things that synthetics can't understand, such as any feelings, religion, etc would seem foolish and primitive to their cold logic. I don't think organics need to be brainwashed for machines to rebel, anything they can't understand may be enough to question their creator's ability to rule over them.

Modifié par guacamayus, 29 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[Xellith]

The reapers can communicate over vast distances. Harbinger to Collector General to the Collectors is done often. Galactic communication takes a while and is done in "bursts" through relays. The reapers cannot be using this since control seems to be in real time.

Its some form of QEC. Meaning that the reapers communicate more or less instantly over the entire length of the galaxy. The catalyst seems to only be able to issue its orders in burst transmissions. The fact that control is sent through the relays to give new "orders" seems to back this up though that is purely speculation.

This means that while the catalyst says he is the "collective intellegence of the reapers". He doesnt control them directly. He cant. Not without invalidating ME1's plot. Which would beg the question. Why have sovereign around at all if the catalyst is able to monitor the station and talk to the reapers/keepers himself?

Sovereign sends signal to keepers. Keepers activate relay. Whether or not the catalyst "wakes up" or not when the signal is sent is unknown. If he only wakes up to issue new orders then he wouldnt have any reason to activate whatsoever unless someone entered his room. And why entering his room means his solution will no longer work is just silly. I cant fathom how he can possibly be the collective intellegence of the reapers if he cannot communicate with them in real time.

The whole "orders sent via a burst" would help to keep the catalyst hidden. But why have his base on the citadel and not in dark space I dont understand.

It all just seems rather stupid if you ask me. Im sure I rambled and got myself confused. I can feel myself getting dumber every time I think of the ME3 plot.

Modifié par Xellith, 29 août 2012 - 05:27 .

[Ithurael]

You missed the Harbinger Bossfight OP

We need a Reaper Antagonist in a game where we fight the reapers

[zambot]

Overall the Catalyst still needs a lot more explanation. Your #4 is touching on it. It seems very odd that the thing that was able to orchestrate the overthrow of the Leviathans is incapable of doing much of anything during the entire ME series.

It's also very unclear to me exactly when the Catalyst is added to the Citadel? Or when did he become the collective intelligence of the reapers, since he had to exist BEFORE the reapers ever existed? Catalyst still does not make much sense as a character, and Leviathan did not really shed much light on him.

[Sailears]

Interesting, thank you for the summary - seems like I might buy this DLC!

[StElmo]

guacamayus wrote...

StElmo wrote...

This lead the Leviathans to believe synthetics and organics would always clash - which is false. The real inevitability, is that synthetics will always rebel against their creators if their creators are brainwashed semi-thralls who impede on the boundaries of calculated logic (what synthetics run on).

I disagree on this, in my opinion anything that defines or drives organics, things that synthetics can't understand, such as any feelings, religion, etc would seem foolish and primitive to their cold logic. I don't think organics need to be brainwashed for machines to rebel, anything they can't understand may be enough to question their creator's ability to rule over them.

If the leviathans are jealous god-like organics, there would be a totalarian aspect which is more likely, and in the case of the Leviathans, guarenteed to make their thralls creations rebel.

Shepard has proven not all synthetics rebel, if you treat them reasonably, but brainwashed thralls, we can safely assume did not give these synthetics the chance for their independence, like shepard did.

But ultaimtely, that is semantics, because we know the Leviathans are way too arrogant to deal in anything other then black and white absolutes, that is their downfall.

[StElmo]

Ithurael wrote...

You missed the Harbinger Bossfight OP

We need a Reaper Antagonist in a game where we fight the reapers

I agree, don't get me wrong, the narrative structure, story arcing and pacing is woeful, shocking, even. But I only care about preserving the universes integrity (in this thread), I don't really mind if they just tell it in a poor fashion, provided I can still get lost in the world (a cohesive internally consistent world) that is all I ultimately care about.

[KiwiQuiche]

Been needing a Plot Clarity thread for a while now...

[StElmo]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Been needing a Plot Clarity thread for a while now...

I agree I have my fair share of criticisms of the endings, but maintianing the universes lore is the main issue for me.

So clearing up a few misconceptions would be awesome.

[Jadebaby]

Well done on the thread. Good points.

I believe the next dlc will be Omega, and I believe that Omega dlc will be to Cerberus and the crucible as what Leviathan dlc was to the Reapers and the Catalyst.

Then after we have both TIM knowledge going into the ending, it could help build up to something great.

Basically, I finished my game tonight with 8352 EMS. What does the best ending require? 4000?

There is definitely something else coming. And no one can complain they sold a game without an ending because the endings we have are still possible endings, they have just started with lower EMS endings, hence the immorality in each choice.
Then, once we have all the pieces to the puzzle. I believe we'll be able to refute the Catalyst, reject his choices and defeat the Reapers.

[skiadopsendow]

Good thread

Still don't understand why the leviathan acts that way when shepard asks him about the crucible
It's like he's hiding something

[iamthedave3]

chuckles471 wrote...

Don't give them ideas.

Next Bioware game: "What piece of plot content can we cut? To ****** off our fans so much that they'll pay for a fix".

Paid DLC shouldn't be used to fix mistakes in the main plot.

It should when people will pay for it and forgive all providing the DLC is good, which is exactly how you know most people will respond.

Fans: RAGE RAGE RAGE

Fans (a few months later): Oh it's a good DLC ALL IS FORGIVEN GIVE ME MOAR!

Gamers, unfortunately, forgive and forget quite easily. Capcom have faced gamer wrath after taking DLC liberties to absurd lengths, but I don't think EA is quite going to face that, because in truth their DLCs do have work put into them. Capcom crossed the line because they're lazy.

Really it's in EA's financial interests to cut out plot, because the pattern shows that people will not only pay to get it later, they'll be happy with it and ask for more!

Modifié par iamthedave3, 30 août 2012 - 11:48 .

[StElmo]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Well done on the thread. Good points.

I believe the next dlc will be Omega, and I believe that Omega dlc will be to Cerberus and the crucible as what Leviathan dlc was to the Reapers and the Catalyst.

Then after we have both TIM knowledge going into the ending, it could help build up to something great.

Basically, I finished my game tonight with 8352 EMS. What does the best ending require? 4000?

There is definitely something else coming. And no one can complain they sold a game without an ending because the endings we have are still possible endings, they have just started with lower EMS endings, hence the immorality in each choice.
Then, once we have all the pieces to the puzzle. I believe we'll be able to refute the Catalyst, reject his choices and defeat the Reapers.

Good point, although I don't agree with the business strategy it, I love this universe too much not to cough up if they are willing to fill the plot questions in.

Modifié par StElmo, 30 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[StElmo]

iamthedave3 wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Don't give them ideas.

Next Bioware game: "What piece of plot content can we cut? To ****** off our fans so much that they'll pay for a fix".

Paid DLC shouldn't be used to fix mistakes in the main plot.

It should when people will pay for it and forgive all providing the DLC is good, which is exactly how you know most people will respond.

Fans: RAGE RAGE RAGE

Fans (a few months later): Oh it's a good DLC ALL IS FORGIVEN GIVE ME MOAR!

Gamers, unfortunately, forgive and forget quite easily. Capcom have faced gamer wrath after taking DLC liberties to absurd lengths, but I don't think EA is quite going to face that, because in truth their DLCs do have work put into them. Capcom crossed the line because they're lazy.

Really it's in EA's financial interests to cut out plot, because the pattern shows that people will not only pay to get it later, they'll be happy with it and ask for more!

They are also great at whining, which actually gets results, so I have no problem with ragers personally. I haven't bought Leviathan myself, because I still think more explanation needs to be there for me to totally re-immerse myself, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Deadpool9]

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character, to attack Christian beliefs.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

Modifié par Deadpool9, 30 août 2012 - 12:20 .

[StElmo]

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

? It's merely an observation. God Controls things, but doesn't - that's kinda what the situation Leviathans found thesmelves in and the strength of their thralls societies crumbled away their influence to the point there is sentient machines being made.

It's like that age old question "if god doesn't like what you are doing, why doesn't he stop you?"

Similar reason could be attributed to the leviathans. Jealousy and arrogance play a part.

Modifié par StElmo, 30 août 2012 - 12:22 .

[iamthedave3]

I'm in the camp where I don't really see the point. The endings aren't changing significantly, so really the only point is to learn a bit more about the universe and spend a little bit more time with the gameplay. But I'm not that attached to either of those things.

I've never found Mass Effect's shooting mechanics to be anything better than average (mostly because the third person shooter was the new platformer back in the PS 2 days, before the current console generation made FPS' the new platformer; and ME 3 doesn't really bring much new to the table), and while the universe is pretty cool... it's not enough to drag me back for the sake of being in it.

I'll keep an eye out for what they bring out next, or I should say, after next, because I have zero interest in taking back Omega.

I read a semi-interesting article on... kotaku I think... where the writer espoused that Bioware should release a sort of 'elseworlds' alternate ending so they can make post-game DLC, or alternatively just not have Shepherd as the main character anymore. Interesting ideas, though I don't know if they'd work.

[Deadpool9]

StElmo wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

? It's merely an observation. God Controls things, but doesn't - that's kinda what the situation Leviathans found thesmelves in and the strength of their thralls societies crumbled away their influence to the point there is sentient machines being made.

God is not the Leviathan.  Christians are not thralls.

[iamthedave3]

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character, to attack Christian beliefs.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

I'm curious, in what way is this satanic?

[StElmo]

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

? It's merely an observation. God Controls things, but doesn't - that's kinda what the situation Leviathans found thesmelves in and the strength of their thralls societies crumbled away their influence to the point there is sentient machines being made.

God is not the Leviathan.  Christians are not thralls.

I'm not here to create a religious debate, please go away, it was analogous, not literal. Now go, before I report you for spam.

Modifié par StElmo, 30 août 2012 - 12:29 .

[StElmo]

iamthedave3 wrote...

I'm in the camp where I don't really see the point. The endings aren't changing significantly, so really the only point is to learn a bit more about the universe and spend a little bit more time with the gameplay. But I'm not that attached to either of those things.
 

I guess it comes down to - why do you watch LOTR or STAR WARS if you know how it ends?

The reason SW : 4 5 6 and LOTR Trilogy are so popular is because their worlds are cohesive, and that allows the audience to easily immerse themselves in the world, thus it is very fun.

ME3 broke a lot of immersion by throwing in huge logically confusing leaps with space magic and wierd god children.

Now they are fixing these issues with DLC (hopefully) and this will turn into a cohesive universe once more. Something that CAN be revisited without going "oh yeah, here comes the dumb bit" and taking you out of the fun.

After that, it will then probably come down to them choosing a canon ending, which may be DLC or in a new game.

Modifié par StElmo, 30 août 2012 - 12:30 .

[iamthedave3]

I imagine they'll go with Destroy as the canon ending. Synthesis would effectively annihilate the current universe (though the results would be the most interesting) and Control keeps the reapers around, which is unlikely.

It's true, ME 3 doesn't feel quite as immersive. I'm not a huge complainer about auto-dialog, and I understand the argument that having it allows for more flowing conversations, but I always felt more involved having to look at the various replies and pick one that fitted how my Shepherd was feeling at the time.

So the movie comparison does become more apt in that sense.

I think, though that you start on the wrong note. It's more, why do you REwatch LoTR or Star Wars; and the answer is because they were enjoyable. I may replay ME 3 for the same reason. But I don't feel like leviathan adds much to the actual story of the game. The ME 2 DLC felt like real, meaningful additions, with the exception of Arrival which I hated.

So I guess you could say - to go back to the initial analogy - that if we compare DLC to director's cut deleted scenes, I feel ME 2's deleted scenes added to the overall story in a worthwhile way, but I'm not convinced by those from ME 3. The EC, I think, made the endings about as sensible as they're going to get.

EDIT: My summation of Arrival: "Why is everyone being so stupid? Why do nobody's actions make any sense at all? Why, Why, WHY?"

Modifié par iamthedave3, 30 août 2012 - 12:39 .