190 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Thanks OP, that actually cleared up some of my confusion since playing Leviathan and how they all fit together with the Reapers and the A.I.

No problems, but thank the OP to the thread I link to in that section, as he had the revelation.

[Deadpool9]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character, to attack Christian beliefs.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

I'm curious, in what way is this satanic?

Break it down...  Promote hatred toward Christianity.  Express it randomly on a video game website.  Specifically, make a comparison of God to Leviathan and also Christians to mindless thralls.  St. Elmo is trying to act innocent now, but he clearly has some sort of anti-Christian agenda.

[StElmo]

iamthedave3 wrote...

I imagine they'll go with Destroy as the canon ending. Synthesis would effectively annihilate the current universe (though the results would be the most interesting) and Control keeps the reapers around, which is unlikely.

It's true, ME 3 doesn't feel quite as immersive. I'm not a huge complainer about auto-dialog, and I understand the argument that having it allows for more flowing conversations, but I always felt more involved having to look at the various replies and pick one that fitted how my Shepherd was feeling at the time.

So the movie comparison does become more apt in that sense.

I think, though that you start on the wrong note. It's more, why do you REwatch LoTR or Star Wars; and the answer is because they were enjoyable. I may replay ME 3 for the same reason. But I don't feel like leviathan adds much to the actual story of the game. The ME 2 DLC felt like real, meaningful additions, with the exception of Arrival which I hated.

So I guess you could say - to go back to the initial analogy - that if we compare DLC to director's cut deleted scenes, I feel ME 2's deleted scenes added to the overall story in a worthwhile way, but I'm not convinced by those from ME 3. The EC, I think, made the endings about as sensible as they're going to get.

The EC retconned a few things to make more sense. Still no need to crash on that planet, but the emotional continuity was better.

The things I listed in the OP are things the EC did not fix.

[Deadpool9]

StElmo wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

? It's merely an observation. God Controls things, but doesn't - that's kinda what the situation Leviathans found thesmelves in and the strength of their thralls societies crumbled away their influence to the point there is sentient machines being made.

God is not the Leviathan.  Christians are not thralls.

I'm not here to create a religious debate, please go away, it was analogous, not literal. Now go, before I report you for spam.

You've already violated the site rules and code of conduct when you randomly made an attack on Christianity.

From rule #1: "These forums are not for discussing other topics such as politics, sex or adult topics, religion, etc."

You started this.  Moderators, please end this!

[iamthedave3]

Deadpool9 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

StElmo wrote...
Leviathans could not control the evolution of these species (kind of like the christian god of today, if you believe the semi-free-will deal going on with the christian mythos)

I came here to read about ME3 DLC, but instead I find a comparison of an ignorant conception of "the christian god" to a video game character, to attack Christian beliefs.  Take your satanic agenda elsewhere, please.

I'm curious, in what way is this satanic?

Break it down...  Promote hatred toward Christianity.  Express it randomly on a video game website.  Specifically, make a comparison of God to Leviathan and also Christians to mindless thralls.  St. Elmo is trying to act innocent now, but he clearly has some sort of anti-Christian agenda.

That isn't satanic, and sci-fi series have been comparing god or gods to aliens for more than fifty years. Usually in more directly offensive ways than this, too.

In fact, one of the key questions of the sci-fi genre is often 'what if god was an alien who created us... and what if he is a douchebag?' The movie Prometheus is a good example of this trope.

[Deadpool9]

In sci-fi, question God's existence? No problem. Make an attack on Christians and suggest that they are mindless thrall slaves controlled by a puppet-master Leviathan/God? Problem.

[Fedi.St]

bump. at last constructive discussion in bioware forums

[StElmo]

Sion1138 wrote...

So is this the new business model? Write a story that doesn't make sense and then charge people to tie it up? Screw that. I'm not supporting this crap.

Remember how you all went a-wall whenever anyone said they wanted a new ending, saying "That would mean they sold us an incomplete game!"

Well, that's exactly what you got. An incomplete game.

EA is EA is EA, unfortunately, BioWare were sold to EA and we can't do anything about that, so lets please stay on topic.

[StElmo]

Sion1138 wrote...

Deadpool9 wrote...

Christians are not thralls.

Well, technically, since they profess to serve this god creature you could indeed say that they are thralls (i.e. servants of god).

Can we not derail this thread? I appreciate your defense of my point, but just ignore him. thanks!

[The Eruptionist]

On point 3 (the plausiblity of the scientists constructing the Crucible when they don't fully understand it).

My understanding of the situation is that even if you are building something that is extremely complex as long as the blue prints give you a step by step exposition on how to build the device then your understanding on the mechanics of how it functions becomes irrelevent.

Imagine if you had to solve a complex algebra equation but had no understanding of mathematics. You could look at the answer sheet and it would show you all the steps required to solve the problem. In the most basic terms it would tell you where to move the mathematic symbols and how to arrange these symbols in order for the equation to be deemed 'solved'. You don't have to know how it works you just have to know what the equation looks like when its solved and the exact steps involved in solving it. It won't help you understand the actual dynamics of the question but it will let you solve it nonetheless. 

An extra analogy: Imagine you're a building apprentice and you're working with a professional builder to construct a house. The building apprentice represents the scientists and the professional represents the Crucible blue prints. The builder (the blue prints) tells you to put a nail in board A then rest the board at point X. You don't know why you're doing this, you don't know what this particular board does and you don't have any context as to what the house will look like when it's complete. As long as the builder is there telling you exactly what to do then you don't need any understanding of what you're doing or why (you would like to know these things but they aren't necessary for the house to be built successfully). You are merely the tool following the instructions and assembling the final product.

My point is that as long as the blue prints you are using to build the Crucible are detailed enough to supply the exact requirements e.g. connect rod A to rod B then attach to point C and if you have the resources and the map then you don't need to reach a detailed understanding. The complexity also beceoms insignificant if the instructions you're following are detailed enough to explicitly outline every step required.

That being said, the scientist have enough of an understanding in this case to figure out some of the basic properties of the Crucible so that it isn't entirely unknown and they would also learn some new things as they built the device. They have a rough idea of what it does and some of the mechanics of how it works which makes them believe that it is actually a reasonable (but still extremely risky) gamble for defeating the Reapers.

That's my idea anyway. Bed time now.

[iamthedave3]

StElmo wrote...

3. The Cruciable
(NEEDS DLC TO EXPLAIN HOW SUCH AN ODD DEVICE IS BEING CREATED BY SCIENTISTS WHO DO NOT KNOW IT'S PURPOSE)

Yeah, I'm not going to bother, the Leviathans are clearly hiding something, and more exposition to make the whole cruciable construction more plausible, within the ME universe would be a huge step in the right direction.

I don't think this one is so hard. One of the things which I found off-putting in ME 3 was that it has a sense of scale, but no sense of time.

How LONG does it take? I'm willing to bet it's not a couple of days (measured by Shepherd's dream sequences). If you assume the war against the reapers takes several years and slot the various missions into that time frame, things become more believable concerning the crucible's building.

StElmo wrote...4. Significance of Sovereign's Mission in ME1
(NEEDS DLC EXPLANATION FOR THE LIMITATIONS OF THE CATALYST)

Currently makes absolutely no sense that the Catalyst did not assist in the original reaper assault in ME1, there should be a DLC that explains this, period. It probably has some kind of power limitation, but if so, how did it originally force the Leviathans to become the reapers, if it did not have some kind of power?

Gotta love those DLCs closing some plot holes and opening new ones

Catalyst doesn't seem to have much in the way of direct power. It always seems to need to be activated by some means.

StElmo wrote...5. RGBR ENDINGS
(NEEDS A DLC TO EXPLAIN HOW THESE WORK EXACTLY, COULD BE LINKED TO CRUCIABLE DLC)

Destroy, you shoot a tank - okay, how does that work? Some cruciable DLC talking about a power source would be good.

Control, probably makes the most sense, given that Legion ties your mind into a machine before, so that has a precedent, no need for more explanation, other then wether the scientists knew about it.

Synthesis - god damn, needs a huge explanation of how a big green light turns everyone into a hybrid - the biggest and most significant plot hole to date, absolutely MUST be addressed to maintain a secondary world belief for players like me.

I dread - DREAD, I SAY - any attempt to explain synthesis. I cannot conceive of any explanation that would not be even sillier than just hand waving and saying 'NANOMACHINES' at the top of your lungs. Probably while dancing.

[StElmo]

iamthedave3 wrote...



I dread - DREAD, I SAY - any attempt to explain synthesis. I cannot conceive of any explanation that would not be even sillier than just hand waving and saying 'NANOMACHINES' at the top of your lungs. Probably while dancing.

I can, as someone else suggested, Omega may have been built on the remnants of an old attempt at the cruciable - lets assume this is a story arc BioWare will explore (although it could be a myriad of other things).

The antagonist on Omega (say Mordin's old protoge) could be investigating the construction of biotic powered nano machines, because of their potential to revolutionize healthcare and be the next "medi-gel" - this leads him to Omega where there is a rumor to be a legend that this technology already exists and is working, made by a previous cycle race.

This actually turns out to be part of the old cruciable, that the doctor finds, and this would lead to some expository dialogue over an old attempt at the cruciable somehow involving nano machines that could fuse organic and synthetic DNA.

Thats enough explanation for me, and would make sense within the universe if given enough lead-in with a narrative such as this.

[StElmo]

The Eruptionist wrote...



That's my idea anyway. Bed time now.

I like your explanation, but audiences cannot do that in their head and doing so takes them out of the immersion. So an explanation like that should be in-game.

Modifié par StElmo, 30 août 2012 - 01:29 .

[StElmo]

Fedi.St wrote...

bump. at last constructive discussion in bioware forums

lawl thanks

[dbt-kenny]

If it is not in the game itself then it is not cannon. A play should not have to read the forums to find answer to anything in the game.

[Aetheria]

Really, the endings don't need to be explained any more. The EC added a ton of explanation and still left the end of the game feeling deeply unsatisfying. The real problem is that every ending thematically broke the implicit promises made by the rest of ME's story and one was an outright insult to players. That's not going to be solved by more exposition.

[Oni Changas]

OniTYME wrote...

Say this is the case. Are you really not insulted or disgusted that they released an unfinished game knowingly AND charged you money in order to get the finished product?

Modifié par OniTYME, 31 août 2012 - 01:18 .

[Legion of 1337]

If the DLCs keep adding to the Reaper's backstory and keep explaining things brought up in the ending, I think the plot can be salvaged. However, it still breaks with the thematic style of ME3. All this needed to be explored in ME2, not ME3. But in ME2, they still thought they'd be going through with Dark Energy plot.

[StElmo]

Aetheria wrote...

Really, the endings don't need to be explained any more. The EC added a ton of explanation and still left the end of the game feeling deeply unsatisfying. The real problem is that every ending thematically broke the implicit promises made by the rest of ME's story and one was an outright insult to players. That's not going to be solved by more exposition.

Read the thread, lots of elements were left unexplained, that is part and parcel why it was so unsatisfying.

[StElmo]

*positivity*

[obZen DF]

I like this thread. I think the Catalyst needs to be explained more as well.
How does it look into Shepard's mind? Can it control the Citadel? Or is the Citadel just it's 'home'?
It said:"The Citadel is part of me".
How did the Crucible change it if it's only a power source?
The Leviathans made it, but did it place itself on the Citadel? Or, did the Reapers make the Catalyst part of the Citadel when they constructed the Citadel?

Leviathan told Shepard about the origins, but none of it was really new. More like a confirmation of our assumptions.

Modifié par obZen DF, 31 août 2012 - 01:11 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

DLC was pretty good, the underwater level reminded me on first KOTOR.
The only thing i disliked is this:
Shepard went through so much trouble:
researching, fighting and going underwater to discover the Cthulhus who were basicly some sort of creators of the Reapers and can kill them with their own mind! But no, you only gain few war assets and you never heard from Leviathan or these guys ever agian. To think this DLC would might actualy effect the ending...

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 31 août 2012 - 01:30 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

StElmo wrote...
4. Significance of Sovereign's Mission in ME1
(NEEDS DLC EXPLANATION FOR THE LIMITATIONS OF THE CATALYST)

Currently makes absolutely no sense that the Catalyst did not assist in the original reaper assault in ME1, there should be a DLC that explains this, period. It probably has some kind of power limitation, but if so, how did it originally force the Leviathans to become the reapers, if it did not have some kind of power?

While I agree that this is not adequately explained in-game, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it makes no sense. The weird thing about the Catalyst as an antagonist is that it does not act out of malice - it sees the cycles as necessary, but it doesn't seem to derive personal satisfaction from killing or harvesting organics, and it also appears to take seriously the notion of preserving the best aspects of organic life in reaper form. So allowing these conflicts to play out for a while without intervening gives organics a chance to advance further before being harvested. (The Catalyst also doesn't seem to take seriously the possibility of a Reaper defeat.)