190 réponses à ce sujet

[Tsuker]

StElmo wrote...

4. Significance of Sovereign's Mission in ME1
(NEEDS DLC EXPLANATION FOR THE LIMITATIONS OF THE CATALYST)

Currently makes absolutely no sense that the Catalyst did not assist in the original reaper assault in ME1, there should be a DLC that explains this, period. It probably has some kind of power limitation, but if so, how did it originally force the Leviathans to become the reapers, if it did not have some kind of power?

From how i see it, it is heavily implied in game that the catalyst has no direct control on the citadel it self. Firstly in all the cycles it needed the keepers to activate the citadel relay, and secondly when the keepers faild it needed a reaper to activate the citadel.
Also every other mass relay needed external help to get it started so it would look logical to me that it just can't do it alone.

Though one could ask why didn't it just move the citadels controls to its own control, and the best i can think of is either that its programing restricted it from doing anything other then controling/guiding the reapers OR the keepers were the direct control on the citadel and now because they were pacified all he does it control the reapers.

Also i would like to say this is by far the most constructive topic i ever saw on these forums.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

A dlc where cerberus finds the location of the crucible or something along those lines would be pretty cool and an opportunity for some extra explanation stuff.

[StElmo]

Tsuker wrote...

StElmo wrote...

4. Significance of Sovereign's Mission in ME1
(NEEDS DLC EXPLANATION FOR THE LIMITATIONS OF THE CATALYST)

Currently makes absolutely no sense that the Catalyst did not assist in the original reaper assault in ME1, there should be a DLC that explains this, period. It probably has some kind of power limitation, but if so, how did it originally force the Leviathans to become the reapers, if it did not have some kind of power?

From how i see it, it is heavily implied in game that the catalyst has no direct control on the citadel it self. Firstly in all the cycles it needed the keepers to activate the citadel relay, and secondly when the keepers faild it needed a reaper to activate the citadel.
Also every other mass relay needed external help to get it started so it would look logical to me that it just can't do it alone.

Though one could ask why didn't it just move the citadels controls to its own control, and the best i can think of is either that its programing restricted it from doing anything other then controling/guiding the reapers OR the keepers were the direct control on the citadel and now because they were pacified all he does it control the reapers.

Also i would like to say this is by far the most constructive topic i ever saw on these forums.

The fact you have to think hard to find a reason is a sign it needs to be explained. I'm fine with your explanation, but it only counts if BW put it in the game, you know? That way, when you watch the story you go "ooooooh" as opposed to "WT* IS THIS?"

[StElmo]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

A dlc where cerberus finds the location of the crucible or something along those lines would be pretty cool and an opportunity for some extra explanation stuff.

Absolutely, if they do this, I will know they are on the right track.

[StElmo]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

DLC was pretty good, the underwater level reminded me on first KOTOR.
The only thing i disliked is this:
Shepard went through so much trouble:
researching, fighting and going underwater to discover the Cthulhus who were basicly some sort of creators of the Reapers and can kill them with their own mind! But no, you only gain few war assets and you never heard from Leviathan or these guys ever agian. To think this DLC would might actualy effect the ending...

Should I buy it? I am tempted, now I have noticed the clarity the DLC brings,. But I want the next DLC to do the same, should I wait?

[DirtyPhoenix]

StElmo wrote...

Mordak55 wrote...

Revanchist01 wrote...

Well if you need to pay an extra $10 (x the extra dlc)just to clarify something that seems to be pretty important to the story; I believe it should have been included or at least mentioned in the original game. And later, if they wanted to, expand on in dlc. But not just rip it from the story and replace it with; "there's not enough time"-starchild.

I enjoyed it but I agree with this ^

I agree wholeheartedly, but it's EA, better to have the world salvaged through DLC then not at all IMHO.

Yeah I agree. i enjoyed the DLC but using DLCs to fix the main game is kinda... things like this should be included in the game from day 1.

PS: I support this thread, clarity is welcome whichever way the come. Though it makes me a little ore suspecious while buying Bioware's gaes in future. :|

Modifié par pirate1802, 01 septembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[RyanSoup]

...
Why would they create artificial intelligence in the first place. It's not as though they were waging war or anything like that. Supposedly it was to assist the organics, but I don't believe they ever specified in what ways. I mean, humanity seems to have gotten along fine on VI technology alone. I fail to understand how supreme organic beings would be so flawed as to allow themselves to operate on a bunch of logical fallacies and anti-intellectual nonsense. For example, they assume that because many synthetics rebelled against their creators, that all synthetics will do so, simply because they were created. This is correlation, not causation. I don't understand how such an advanced species could fail to understand the difference. And you're telling me the Leviathans had no other options? I mean, if God can tell people not to eat shellfish, I don't see why Leviathans couldn't tell the races not to create AI. That STILL doesn't make sense.

[StElmo]

pirate1802 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Mordak55 wrote...

Revanchist01 wrote...

Well if you need to pay an extra $10 (x the extra dlc)just to clarify something that seems to be pretty important to the story; I believe it should have been included or at least mentioned in the original game. And later, if they wanted to, expand on in dlc. But not just rip it from the story and replace it with; "there's not enough time"-starchild.

I enjoyed it but I agree with this ^

I agree wholeheartedly, but it's EA, better to have the world salvaged through DLC then not at all IMHO.

Yeah I agree. i enjoyed the DLC but using DLCs to fix the main game is kinda... things like this should be included in the game from day 1.

PS: I support this thread, clarity is welcome whichever way the come. Though it makes me a little ore suspecious while buying Bioware's gaes in future. :|

The thing is, sometimes writers do have something going on in their head that they think audiences will understand but we don't.

So I can see why EA would want to capitalize on it, don't blame BioWare

[StElmo]

RyanSoup wrote...

...
Why would they create artificial intelligence in the first place.

Leviathans did not, organic civilizations that the Leviathans call their "thralls" (but are not really) did.

The Leviathans were short sighted and arrogant, so they then created the catalyst with a no comprimise premise that they believed was true, even though it was not.

[DirtyPhoenix]

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

[daecath]

I have to say, I really like your take on Leviathan. I think that does fix a couple story related plot holes, as you said.

Now, let's talk about the new plot holes that it created.

4 glowing orbs one-shot a reaper:
Ok, so we've seen what, about 10-12 of these things so far? Presumably the leviathans created them, so they would know how to create more. These things are pretty small, about the size of a torpedo. They didn't need the leviathans to be anywhere near them to work. And 4 of them turned a full sized reaper into a paperweight. Study these things, study the energy they produce, tell Hackett to forget the crucible, throw every available resource you have into reproducing that energy pulse, and the war is over. Or just let the leviathans give you a bunch to distribute, and let them fire them off. Of course, that leads to...

Even bigger threat:
Yeah, so the leviathans - the race that are the template that the reapers are copied from, the ones that are more powerful than the reapers, and have absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, the ones that believe they are superior and everyone else should serve them - they're still around, and if you beat the reapers, they still pose an even bigger threat. At best, you pick control or synthesize and hope that your giant reaper army can defeat an enemy that doesn't have to be anywhere near you to shut you down. Good luck with that.

Solve one problem, create two more. Yep, that sounds about right on par for the way this ending debacle is going.

[DirtyPhoenix]

StElmo wrote...

The thing is, sometimes writers do have something going on in their head that they think audiences will understand but we don't.

So I can see why EA would want to capitalize on it, don't blame BioWare

I, for one, hold the view that the whole ending fiasco is a result of EA rushing Bioware so I don't blame Bioware alone. Notice how the flashback of your LI pre-EC was always VS or Liara, and it was fixed post-EC. All this point to a rushing, and not art or whatever. Bioware can't openly blame EA so they are stuck defending themselves with artistic integrity.

[RyanSoup]

pirate1802 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

It destroyed all Reaper tech
Including the Reaper-augmented Geth

[StElmo]

pirate1802 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

The thing is, sometimes writers do have something going on in their head that they think audiences will understand but we don't.

So I can see why EA would want to capitalize on it, don't blame BioWare

I, for one, hold the view that the whole ending fiasco is a result of EA rushing Bioware so I don't blame Bioware alone. Notice how the flashback of your LI pre-EC was always VS or Liara, and it was fixed post-EC. All this point to a rushing, and not art or whatever. Bioware can't openly blame EA so they are stuck defending themselves with artistic integrity.

prolly

Modifié par StElmo, 01 septembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[StElmo]

daecath wrote...

I have to say, I really like your take on Leviathan. I think that does fix a couple story related plot holes, as you said.

Now, let's talk about the new plot holes that it created.

4 glowing orbs one-shot a reaper:
Ok, so we've seen what, about 10-12 of these things so far? Presumably the leviathans created them, so they would know how to create more. These things are pretty small, about the size of a torpedo. They didn't need the leviathans to be anywhere near them to work. And 4 of them turned a full sized reaper into a paperweight. Study these things, study the energy they produce, tell Hackett to forget the crucible, throw every available resource you have into reproducing that energy pulse, and the war is over. Or just let the leviathans give you a bunch to distribute, and let them fire them off. Of course, that leads to...

Even bigger threat:
Yeah, so the leviathans - the race that are the template that the reapers are copied from, the ones that are more powerful than the reapers, and have absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, the ones that believe they are superior and everyone else should serve them - they're still around, and if you beat the reapers, they still pose an even bigger threat. At best, you pick control or synthesize and hope that your giant reaper army can defeat an enemy that doesn't have to be anywhere near you to shut you down. Good luck with that.

Solve one problem, create two more. Yep, that sounds about right on par for the way this ending debacle is going.

Bigger threat = awesome antagonist for ME4

Leviathans are not your friends, remember that

[DirtyPhoenix]

daecath wrote...


4 glowing orbs one-shot a reaper:
Ok, so we've seen what, about 10-12 of these things so far? Presumably the leviathans created them, so they would know how to create more. These things are pretty small, about the size of a torpedo. They didn't need the leviathans to be anywhere near them to work. And 4 of them turned a full sized reaper into a paperweight. Study these things, study the energy they produce, tell Hackett to forget the crucible, throw every available resource you have into reproducing that energy pulse, and the war is over. Or just let the leviathans give you a bunch to distribute, and let them fire them off. Of course, that leads to...

Those orbs are easy to destroy, and you can find a way to counteract their effects, like you they did with the orb in the lab. It is also suggested that the effects are not immediate, that it takes time for the mindwash to take place. The Leviathan war asset talks about what you suggested, smuggling the orbs behind enemy lines without the reapers noticing.

Yeah, so the leviathans - the race that are the template that the reapers are copied from, the ones that are more powerful than the reapers, and have absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, the ones that believe they are superior and everyone else should serve them - they're still around, and if you beat the reapers, they still pose an even bigger threat. At best, you pick control or synthesize and hope that your giant reaper army can defeat an enemy that doesn't have to be anywhere near you to shut you down. Good luck with that.

Those things are confined to a single planet, and need their blue balls to do their magic, without which, they are poweless, atleast by what we saw in the DLC. I don't know why they should be such a big threat if the player chooses destroy. Just destroy their balls, like Javik (in my playthrough) did to free Ann, or nuke the planet, or throw a barrel of poison into the water.. anything works.

IMO, Destroy embodies the spirit of facing an new future at our own terms, free from the reaper's influence. That new future may contain new threats bigger than the reapers. If you picked destroy you should be ready to face them.
In any case, if there is to be a ME4 set after 3, we do need a threat. I see Leviathan as a probable foreshadowment of the would-be villains.

Modifié par pirate1802, 01 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[RyanSoup]

StElmo wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

...
Why would they create artificial intelligence in the first place.

Leviathans did not, organic civilizations that the Leviathans call their "thralls" (but are not really) did.

The Leviathans were short sighted and arrogant, so they then created the catalyst with a no comprimise premise that they believed was true, even though it was not.

You didn't read all of my post.  Leviathans were worshipped like gods.  Why not just forbid the thralls from making AI

How is the most advanced civilization in the galaxy short-sighted and arrogant. You don't get that far being short-sighted and arrogant.  The whole notion itself is asinine.  You're telling me that they used the thralls for tech, but didn't manage to derive from them the concept of critical thinking?  To be that advanced, they would have had to.  

[DirtyPhoenix]

RyanSoup wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

It destroyed all Reaper tech
Including the Reaper-augmented Geth

That is even more space-magicky. Reaper tech, in the Geth's case were mere codes. 0s and 1s. How does the red wave of death differentiate between a certain pattern of 0 and 1, and another?

[StElmo]

RyanSoup wrote...

StElmo wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

...
Why would they create artificial intelligence in the first place.

Leviathans did not, organic civilizations that the Leviathans call their "thralls" (but are not really) did.

The Leviathans were short sighted and arrogant, so they then created the catalyst with a no comprimise premise that they believed was true, even though it was not.

You didn't read all of my post.  Leviathans were worshipped like gods.  Why not just forbid the thralls from making AI

How is the most advanced civilization in the galaxy short-sighted and arrogant. You don't get that far being short-sighted and arrogant. 

Actually, you do if you are powerful enough to stay on top, but underestimate the power of progress in a society.

I compared it to the christian god of today, people say, HE says that he is benevolent and has a "plan", yet society continually moves away from his rules and his laws?

Leviathans clearly did not have the strangle hold on society as they percieved. But because they were such an ancient race, they didn't realize the fault was with them when the synthetics their subjects created somehow didn't see the leviathans the same way the subjects did,

[StElmo]

pirate1802 wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

It destroyed all Reaper tech
Including the Reaper-augmented Geth

That is even more space-magicky. Reaper tech, in the Geth's case were mere codes. 0s and 1s. How does the red wave of death differentiate between a certain pattern of 0 and 1, and another?

Same way a soundwave can destroy something or not destroy it. Maybe the reaper tech has particles that react to a certain energy frequency, when released it nullifies the circuits.

[DirtyPhoenix]

StElmo wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

It destroyed all Reaper tech
Including the Reaper-augmented Geth

That is even more space-magicky. Reaper tech, in the Geth's case were mere codes. 0s and 1s. How does the red wave of death differentiate between a certain pattern of 0 and 1, and another?

Same way a soundwave can destroy something or not destroy it. Maybe the reaper tech has particles that react to a certain energy frequency, when released it nullifies the circuits.

requires a codex entry , or rather, they explain what "reaper-tech" actually is. They use that term as a blanket for a lot of things..

[RyanSoup]

StElmo wrote...
 Actually, you do if you are powerful enough to stay on top, but underestimate the power of progress in a society.

I compared it to the christian god of today, people say, HE says that he is benevolent and has a "plan", yet society continually moves away from his rules and his laws?

Leviathans clearly did not have the strangle hold on society as they percieved. But because they were such an ancient race, they didn't realize the fault was with them when the synthetics their subjects created somehow didn't see the leviathans the same way the subjects did,

What's "the power of progress"?
I'm pretty sure you just made that phrase up.

You make it sound like Leviathans were some sort of malevolent dictators who had to maintain control through political manipulation.

You can compare it to the Christian god, but he isn't a giant squid-monster with telepathic mind-control powers.  Leviathans are based on Lovecraft's elder-gods.  Beings that existed in another dimension (eg. Dark space) and managed to enslave humans by telepathic influence rather than direct control.  See, THIS is what needed to be explained.  This is what the initial writer was going for, and I don't think subsequent writers really picked up on it at all.

[StElmo]

pirate1802 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

On 5. Destroy effects all tech.

No it doesn't destroy "all" tech. How is the Normandy still flying then? Destroy takes the cake for being the second-most space magicky ending after synthesis. A red wave of death can somehow differentiate between my computer and an AI? Lol..

It destroyed all Reaper tech
Including the Reaper-augmented Geth

That is even more space-magicky. Reaper tech, in the Geth's case were mere codes. 0s and 1s. How does the red wave of death differentiate between a certain pattern of 0 and 1, and another?

Same way a soundwave can destroy something or not destroy it. Maybe the reaper tech has particles that react to a certain energy frequency, when released it nullifies the circuits.

requires a codex entry , or rather, they explain what "reaper-tech" actually is. They use that term as a blanket for a lot of things..

I agree. codex entry is essential.

[StElmo]

RyanSoup wrote...

StElmo wrote...
 Actually, you do if you are powerful enough to stay on top, but underestimate the power of progress in a society.

I compared it to the christian god of today, people say, HE says that he is benevolent and has a "plan", yet society continually moves away from his rules and his laws?

Leviathans clearly did not have the strangle hold on society as they percieved. But because they were such an ancient race, they didn't realize the fault was with them when the synthetics their subjects created somehow didn't see the leviathans the same way the subjects did,

What's "the power of progress"?
I'm pretty sure you just made that phrase up.

How do societies run? Do they go backwards or do they always progress through scientific discovery?

They always go one direction, the Leviathans simply could not stop scientific discoveries.

[RyanSoup]

StElmo wrote...
How do societies run? Do they go backwards or do they always progress through scientific discovery?

They always go one direction, the Leviathans simply could not stop scientific discoveries.

What do you mean "how do societies run"Define your terms.  What's a society.  Define progress.
Lololol "Leviathans simply could not stop scientific discoveries"That one's funny as hell.