82 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelStuart]

syllogi wrote...

Cole might, after some time and maturity, become less dangerous, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't have the capacity for that sort of amoral and chaotic violence.

True, but that can be said of anyone.

[syllogi]

MichaelStuart wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Cole might, after some time and maturity, become less dangerous, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't have the capacity for that sort of amoral and chaotic violence.

True, but that can be said of anyone.

Not everyone has the abilities that Cole has, or has committed the acts that Cole has.  That's like saying we should give serial killers who are currently in jail a break and let them reintegrate into society if they say sorry and promise not to do it again.

[JasonPogo]

@syllogi

Agreed. I was never saying the killings were justified.

[MichaelStuart]

syllogi wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Cole might, after some time and maturity, become less dangerous, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't have the capacity for that sort of amoral and chaotic violence.

True, but that can be said of anyone.

Not everyone has the abilities that Cole has, or has committed the acts that Cole has.  That's like saying we should give serial killers who are currently in jail a break and let them reintegrate into society if they say sorry and promise not to do it again.

Everyone has the abilty to kill, often all it takes is one bad day.
Just because Cole can kill better than the average person, doesn't mine he should be treated different than the average person.
Also, Cole was sorry and did keep his promise to not kill people again, even when someone begged him help to kill themself.
True, he may have killed someone at the end, but honestly, whose weeping for that guy.

[syllogi]

MichaelStuart wrote...

syllogi wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Cole might, after some time and maturity, become less dangerous, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't have the capacity for that sort of amoral and chaotic violence.

True, but that can be said of anyone.

Not everyone has the abilities that Cole has, or has committed the acts that Cole has.  That's like saying we should give serial killers who are currently in jail a break and let them reintegrate into society if they say sorry and promise not to do it again.

Everyone has the abilty to kill, often all it takes is one bad day.
Just because Cole can kill better than the average person, doesn't mine he should be treated different than the average person.
Also, Cole was sorry and did keep his promise to not kill people again, even when someone begged him help to kill themself.
True, he may have killed someone at the end, but honestly, whose weeping for that guy.

Err, no.  One bad day does not turn most people into serial killers.  Cole was a spirit who did not appear to fully understand the import of his actions when he was killing the mages, which is very different than you or I going "postal" after a bad day at the office.  In Cole's case, there is room to hope that he can redeem himself, somewhat, but he is still a spirit, who only has begun recently to experience "human" emotions.

Like Justice, it's hard to know what Cole exactly *is*, so it's hard to judge him by human standards, but as a human, I'm not going to just hand wave murder of innocents.  

If Cole is a party member, I can give the character the benefit of the doubt, at least at first, because my character will most likely not have all the background information on him that a reader of Asunder has.  That doesn't mean that, as a player, I haven't already formed an opinion, based on what I know.  And my opinion is that he's both violent towards innocents and has not yet proven he's capable of knowing right from wrong in most situations, so I'm going to be wary of him (and I really think he's not appropriate for a romance, yikes).

Modifié par syllogi, 30 août 2012 - 03:02 .

[Leoroc]

I am so amazed that people are less forgiving of the abused disturbed kid who doesn't really understand what he is doing (and is certainly capable of redemption) over the guy who kills for money (Zevran)

[cogsandcurls]

Sidestepping the issue of whether I actually like Cole as a person or not (as with a lot of my favourite DA characters, it's not an easy question to answer because it's full of so many shades of grey), I am really looking forward to the idea of having Cole appear in DA3. He has the capacity to be a really interesting companion - there's so much stuff that could be delved into, from personal issues to some really fresh lore stuff regarding spirits/demons etc.

Plus a good rogue is always welcome in my party!

[MichaelStuart]

syllogi wrote...

Err, no.  One bad day does not turn most people into serial killers.  Cole was a spirit who did not appear to fully understand the import of his actions when he was killing the mages, which is very different than you or I going "postal" after a bad day at the office.  In Cole's case, there is room to hope that he can redeem himself, somewhat, but he is still a spirit, who only has begun recently to experience "human" emotions.

Like Justice, it's hard to know what Cole exactly *is*, so it's hard to judge him by human standards, but as a human, I'm not going to just hand wave murder of innocents.  

If Cole is a party member, I can give the character the benefit of the doubt, at least at first, because my character will most likely not have all the background information on him that a reader of Asunder has.  That doesn't mean that, as a player, I haven't already formed an opinion, based on what I know.  And my opinion is that he's both violent towards innocents and has not yet proven he's capable of knowing right from wrong in most situations, so I'm going to be wary of him (and I really think he's not appropriate for a romance, yikes).

Just to clear, One Bad Day was a metaphor for when people screw up there have the possibility of doing horrible things. Which I will admit doesn't really apply to serial killers.
I'm not hand waving his murders either. I just believe that Cole (spirt or not) is a screw up child who deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Cole being a screw up kid is also why I agree he would be inappropriate for a romance. 

[Spicen]

cogsandcurls wrote...

Sidestepping the issue of whether I actually like Cole as a person or not (as with a lot of my favourite DA characters, it's not an easy question to answer because it's full of so many shades of grey), I am really looking forward to the idea of having Cole appear in DA3. He has the capacity to be a really interesting companion - there's so much stuff that could be delved into, from personal issues to some really fresh lore stuff regarding spirits/demons etc.

Plus a good rogue is always welcome in my party!

Actually this thread is about whether you would like Cole as a companion, so ur not sidesteping. This is not a personality analysis thread really, as i said if biow can pull this one id be very happy, and so far most of the comments have been positive, i hope we can get cole.

[syllogi]

Leoroc wrote...

I am so amazed that people are less forgiving of the abused disturbed kid who doesn't really understand what he is doing (and is certainly capable of redemption) over the guy who kills for money (Zevran)

He's not a kid, he's a spirit with the memories of an abused kid who accidentally killed someone.  Cole, the spirit, killed people on purpose, either because he had some sort of sense that they could possibly see them, or because he wanted to be seen by them.  That's really bizarre.  We can't relate to him, and we don't even have a clear understanding of what he is.

Zevran, on the other hand, was a human, raised first in a brothel and then sold to assassins, to be a killer.  It was all he knew, and when he was tired of it, he chose the assignment to go after the Grey Warden as a way out (by suicide by Warden, or when that failed, he tried to change, by joining the Warden).  Not everyone can relate to him, but it's at least something we can try to understand, based on our own experiences.

Not really that amazing, honestly.

Modifié par syllogi, 30 août 2012 - 04:18 .

[Olmerto]

It has not been determined that all spirits have mature adult intellects. In Thedas, we still know very little about the spirit realm. The spirit in Cole has shown the capacity to learn. It has shown willpower not to kill. It has shown loyalty. From Asunder, we still do not know the full truth about Cole. It's an interesting study in DA lore to say the least. I see no way anyone can be dismissive about Cole as a companion.

[MichaelStuart]

syllogi wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

I am so amazed that people are less forgiving of the abused disturbed kid who doesn't really understand what he is doing (and is certainly capable of redemption) over the guy who kills for money (Zevran)

He's not a kid, he's a spirit with the memories of an abused kid who accidentally killed someone.  Cole, the spirit, killed people on purpose, either because he had some sort of sense that they could possibly see them, or because he wanted to be seen by them.  That's really bizarre.  We can't relate to him, and we don't even have a clear understanding of what he is.

Zevran, on the other hand, was a human, raised first in a brothel and then sold to assassins, to be a killer.  It was all he knew, and when he was tired of it, he chose the assignment to go after the Grey Warden as a way out (by suicide by Warden, or when that failed, he tried to change, by joining the Warden).  Not everyone can relate to him, but it's at least something we can try to understand, based on our own experiences.

Not really that amazing, honestly.

You need to relate to someone to understand them.
Honestly, spirt or not, I can understand what Cole was going threw, I not saying I would have done what he did, but I can understand why he did it.

As I've said, Cole would be a intresting character to have as a companion, more for conversation than for combat.
But I rarely pick companions, just for combat anyway. 

[syllogi]

MichaelStuart wrote...

You need to relate to someone to understand them.
Honestly, spirt or not, I can understand what Cole was going threw, I not saying I would have done what he did, but I can understand why he did it.

As I've said, Cole would be a intresting character to have as a companion, more for conversation than for combat.
But I rarely pick companions, just for combat anyway. 

I'm not saying that Cole isn't very interesting, just that the nature of the companion system would limit how he can develop, or else we get a situation where his static storyline plays out regardless of how the player character interacts with him (see: Anders in DA2).  

My other point was that he's a really bad choice for a romance plot, but most people see it that way too, it seems.

[Xeyska]

syllogi wrote...

Zevran, on the other hand, was a human...

Zevran was a human?

syllogi wrote...

I'm not saying that Cole isn't very interesting, just that the nature of the companion system would limit how he can develop, or else we get a situation where his static storyline plays out regardless of how the player character interacts with him (see: Anders in DA2).  

My other point was that he's a really bad choice for a romance plot, but most people see it that way too, it seems.

I agree. Unless the Devs change the companion system to allow more depth, it wouldn't work out for a character like Cole.

Modifié par Xeyska, 30 août 2012 - 05:35 .

[Leoroc]

I see Cole much like the KotOR2 companions, where he bonds/imprints to the pc. If the new protag is kinda evil, Cole would likely head down that road. A nice PC would have more of a positive influence on him.

[syllogi]

Xeyska wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Zevran, on the other hand, was a human...

Zevran was a human?

 Yeah, I was trying to indicate the difference between a spirit and Zevran's "humanity" but d'oh.  I probably would have made the same mistake if he were a dwarf, too, for whatever it's worth.

[MichaelStuart]

syllogi wrote...

I'm not saying that Cole isn't very interesting, just that the nature of the companion system would limit how he can develop, or else we get a situation where his static storyline plays out regardless of how the player character interacts with him (see: Anders in DA2).  

I will admit, If we do get Cole as a companion, I doubt he will go threw any real character development.
 

[1483749283]

I personally couldn't stand Cole so I hope this doesn't happen. I found him totally overdone, a curious mixture of both depressing and uninteresting, and generally a cheap attempt at soliciting sympathy for a psychopath.

Cole was the reason I put down Asunder 2/3 into the book and just went over to the wiki to read the plot synopsis, already. It's too bad, because I really liked the other characters in the novel.

In general I can't make up my mind about Mr. Gaider's writing... and I have been following it for, sheesh, ten years now, ever since the Ascension mod to BG2. Brilliance and mediocrity come and go like the tides in that mind... let's hope the springs have been flowing well as I think the plot for DA3 must be getting finalized right about now....

[brushyourteeth]

My understanding of Cole was that he felt a kind of compulsion draw him to someone who he *knew* would be able to see him before he even necessarily knew who they were or even if they definitely existed. He would be drawn to a bedroom or a dungeon or what-have-you and inside would be someone who could inexplicably see him, and he would kill them in order to feel real again. Not necessarily any motive involved except self-preservation, and definitely not because he felt compassion for them. He killed the ones who could see him, rather than revealing himself to the ones he killed. If you asked him why they could see him he'd probably say "I don't know. But I killed them because I felt like I had to."

[Heimdall]

Cole could be extremely interesting, or he might just give me a headache, or both. It was definitely both while reading Asunder

[Fredward]

brushyourteeth wrote...

My understanding of Cole was that he felt a kind of compulsion draw him to someone who he *knew* would be able to see him before he even necessarily knew who they were or even if they definitely existed. He would be drawn to a bedroom or a dungeon or what-have-you and inside would be someone who could inexplicably see him, and he would kill them in order to feel real again. Not necessarily any motive involved except self-preservation, and definitely not because he felt compassion for them. He killed the ones who could see him, rather than revealing himself to the ones he killed. If you asked him why they could see him he'd probably say "I don't know. But I killed them because I felt like I had to."

I think Cole kidded himself into believing it was for mercy's sake, which if he IS a spirit of compassion, would totally make sense. But yeah it was pure (yet tragic) self preservation.

[Jessihatt]

Can't demons become spirits, same as spirits can become demons? I think that's been said somewhere on BSN.
I don't believe Cole is evil though, he didn't want to kill those people really - he just didn't want to be alone. Plus I don't think he realised he was possessing people either. I read Asunder a while ago though.

I would like to see Cole as a companion, he's still a huge mystery and has so much potential.
I can see why people who have read Asunder might not want him but I don't get how those who haven't are so opposed! 

Modifié par CommanderJessica, 31 août 2012 - 10:14 .

[Avroseeker]

Like a bunch of people had said before, I would really like if Cole was a companion in the next game. He was my favorite character in Asunder as he seemed to have some depth to him. Rhys I didn’t like simply because he was another jesting , charming mage. Like Anders (yes he did turn into a stick in the mud, to put it lightly later on) and Regalyan before him (or after).  I’m kind of sort of bored with those two personality  traits being used over and over again for mages that have a starring role in the Dragon Age world.

Anyway back to Cole it would be interesting to peel back the layers to find out what he is. He seems similar to Justice from Awakening in some ways, but not in others.  Justice though was inhabiting a corpse of a dead Kristoff, the spirit did have some of his host memories to go on. But Justice still knew what he was when he crossed into Thedas, a Spirit of Justice from the Fade, who just happened to have Kristoff’s memorise. Justice has the Warden Commander and the other companions to help him understand how this new world operates.

Cole inhabiting (or being) what seems to be in a living body, as he still needs to eat and sleep doesn’t know what he was or is. And only had memorise to guide him when he crosses over from the Fade (if he is some sort of spirit or demon that is). And when he arrives…there is no one to greet him with open arms. To help him understand what was going on. He was most likely so scared and confused like a child lost in a shopping mall. Yes Rhys finds Cole later on and visits him, but Cole is still clearly unstable even with attention. For me to would be neat to dive deeper into him even more so because sounds like he has grown a pair by the end of the book.

Cole as a romance option…maybe? If the pacing was much, much slower then DA2 (I’m not counting the time skips) then yes I could see a romance happening.  Maybe he has to choose a darker life where he still needs to kill people to feel important to feel alive. Or to embrace his humanity, so he can finally and truly happy with you. Does…that make sense…probably not, but I do imagine him being ten times more clingy then Anders was.
Sorry for the wall of text…I tend to write a lot of pointless crap.  

Modifié par Avroseeker, 01 septembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Spicen]

Ah this thread is back in business. Anyway Cole is a cold hearted spirit not a demon i think and thus a very interesting option.

[Spicen]

CommanderJessica wrote...

Can't demons become spirits, same as spirits can become demons? I think that's been said somewhere on BSN.
I don't believe Cole is evil though, he didn't want to kill those people really - he just didn't want to be alone. Plus I don't think he realised he was possessing people either. I read Asunder a while ago though.

I would like to see Cole as a companion, he's still a huge mystery and has so much potential.
I can see why people who have read Asunder might not want him but I don't get how those who haven't are so opposed! 

Listen demons are classified as demons due to the human emotion they embody. A spirit can become a demon as we saw with Justice. If spirits decide to embody the bad virtues og humans than they can be classified as demons IMO